Arrogance

[Pepin]

DH is a mother enmeshed man.  One thing that I have connected the dots about with him is that he becomes arrogant before and particularly after visits with her.  He is a completely different man after interactions with her.  A man I don't know and am slightly scared of.  I usually make myself scarce when her returns from a visit with her or busy myself with something while he returns to "normal".

Also, DH becomes arrogant after he works out or if he returns from a business trip.  No business trips this year though.  But the few times he has exercised, his demeanor is bizarre.  It is like he is on top of the world and everyone else is beneath.  I get it that exercising makes one feel good as I exercise as well but, I am still the same Pepin after my workouts.

I understand that he takes his anger of her out on me.  I think that he doesn't like servicing her or being in the position that he is in.  But somehow he thinks I can take what he spews while his mother cannot. 

Are there other ways I can set boundaries with him when he behaves arrogantly?  I just want him to stop and think about how hurtful he is being toward me.

[Boat Babe]

This is painful behaviour on the part of your DH and I feel for you. My question is, are you able to talk about this with him? If your husband is not a disordered person then this should be possible. If he has fleas, it will be difficult. And if/when you do approach him, maybe tackle just one behaviour at a time. Is he, himself on a healing journey? How in/Out of the FOG is he?

I like the self protection you have worked into your life to minimize damage to yourself. That's great and keep it up! 

[Phoenix Rising]

What has happened when you talked about your feelings about his treatment of you and the behavioural changes? Does he get defensive? Does it cause distance?

[IRedW77]

Pepin,

I posted a reply about arrogance in another thread you posted in where you mentioned it. I wanted to repost here because it's the topic of your thread here.

I just wanted to share some possible insight into the arrogance of the golden child son of a waif in particular.

Arrogance is a defense mechanism. The only way to feel better about yourself, or that you can even deserve to be in the same room as everyone else is sometimes to be arrogant.

You can feel that everyone else has some grip on normalcy (or some other thing you want to quantify), but you don't. If you feel like you don't fit in and everyone around you has or has access to something you don't a logical (the only?) defense is to feel like you have something that no one else has. You need to be better than anyone just to feel like you can keep up with them at everything else you know (or feel) you don't have.

It's also a natural move for the golden child to make. PD parent has plastered everything that they feel is good about themselves onto their child. They've also assigned all the keys to their own healing, safety, happiness (and whatever else) to the golden child. She's been telling him he's a special hero since he was born. So also of course he's arrogant. He's been told he should be. 

He has all this virtue assigned that isn't his, so he feels like any virtue that he does have of his own also isn't his. So he's told he deserves to be arrogant and he defends himself from his perceived failings with arrogance.

Even if he cuts off his feelings, it's still hard not to serve the PD parent. He's been conditioned not to get validation any other way. No matter how frustrating it is there's still an obligation that only you (you've been told) can meet.

Maybe the returns from business trips is a hangover from having to maintain that arrogance as a defensive posture. If he has to go toe to toe with all of these other business types I guarantee it makes him insecure (whether or not he'd admit that to you or him self). He's probably been walking around as Mr. Arrogant the entire time he's been gone just to survive and has a hard time turning it back off.

As for exercise, that's harder to suss out. Maybe he feels like he's really accomplished something every time? He feels inadequate the rest of the time so arrogance is his way to celebrate himself?

Accomplishment itself doesn't bring much reward for the golden child. He doesn't feel like he's earned anything he's accomplished because his PD plastering traits all over him has given him imposter syndrome—so he hasn't earned any he's earned—he never feels the um...accomplishment of his accomplishments, so maybe arrogance is a way for him to experience some benefit?

I'm curious, does he know about his mother's PD? If he can't see it himself it's hard to fix.

[Pepin]

Arrogance is a defense mechanism. The only way to feel better about yourself, or that you can even deserve to be in the same room as everyone else is sometimes to be arrogant.

I believe this.  When DH goes to visit PDmil for example, he knows that while he is free to go, he has to go by himself.  I used to tag along.  But it became clear over time that PDmil wasn't always comfortable with me being there.  She just wanted her son without me in tow.  She has also done this with our kids when they visit with her.  They picked up on this a while ago and really don't care for her anymore.  The other grandkids aren't really into her as well, so it's not just my kids.  It is awkward in my opinion that a grandma is so detached from her grandkids.  She only wants her kids....and certain ones of course.  Yes, this has to be embarrassing for DH.  He has gotten upset with our kids asking them why they cannot make a better effort...rather than calling out his own mother.  Typical GC behavior though.

It's also a natural move for the golden child to make. PD parent has plastered everything that they feel is good about themselves onto their child. They've also assigned all the keys to their own healing, safety, happiness (and whatever else) to the golden child. She's been telling him he's a special hero since he was born. So also of course he's arrogant. He's been told he should be.

Absolutely.  Poor DH has been jumping through hoops his entire life trying to supply her emotional needs.  He gets upset when he is unable to help her.  I know it makes him proud to help anyone.  We are both people pleasers to an extent.....except that I started enacting boundaries years ago when parenthood suddenly forced me to. 

Maybe the returns from business trips is a hangover from having to maintain that arrogance as a defensive posture. If he has to go toe to toe with all of these other business types I guarantee it makes him insecure (whether or not he'd admit that to you or him self). He's probably been walking around as Mr. Arrogant the entire time he's been gone just to survive and has a hard time turning it back off.

IDK about this....maybe.  DH and his work environment all kind of operate on the same level.  I think it secretly satisfies him to know that he got to go somewhere (usually Europe) because before meeting me, I travelled a lot.  He has obviously surpassed me in the travel department.  The thing is that I have never made a big deal about any of the travel I have done before him.  I grew up on the east coast and the UK was 6 hours away...and there were great student rates back then.  Who wouldn't do this if they could?  I digress...

As for exercise, that's harder to suss out. Maybe he feels like he's really accomplished something every time? He feels inadequate the rest of the time so arrogance is his way to celebrate himself?

DH used to work out a lot.  I miss that.  Not going to lie but I think that moving closer to PDmil kind of messed that all up for him.  His obligations became that he needed to spend more time with her after being away for so long.  He forgot about taking care of himself.  Instead of taking care of himself after we had kids, he started taking care of her more.  I am certain he feels inadequate about himself and his image. 

Accomplishment itself doesn't bring much reward for the golden child. He doesn't feel like he's earned anything he's accomplished because his PD plastering traits all over him has given him imposter syndrome—so he hasn't earned any he's earned—he never feels the um...accomplishment of his accomplishments, so maybe arrogance is a way for him to experience some benefit?

Yeah.... he's bored at work a lot.  Just does it for pay.  Feels like he works amongst idiots but doesn't want to take a higher up position.  As far as family life, I do think he has failed a little as a father.  The kids are always going to run to me....because I have their back.  DH doesn't have their back as much anymore because his mother is in the way.  The kids resent this massively. 
 

I'm curious, does he know about his mother's PD? If he can't see it himself it's hard to fix.

DH is a hard one to crack.  A GC isn't going to admit that they are under the thumb of a PD easily....esecially when they have POA and all that great stuff.  DH essentially is at the head of his FOO after PDmil passes.  He doesn't have a close relationship with any of his siblings.  It is a business arrangement more than anything else.  He has been instructed to watch over his older brother  after PDmil is gone.  Please.  I don't know how I am going to get him to break away from that...because it is ridiculous.  PDmil essentially wants to make sure that BIL's money will be taken care of by DH.  Yeah....BIL is not good with money but has never been taught to pick himself up after a failure.  No doubt that BIL is worth more than us.....when he visits I feel like trash....I feel like my husband is indirectly a servant to his brother who never gave a rat's a** about DH growing up and still really doesn't.

DH probably knows his mother is a problem....but he won't admit that.  Its embarrassing for a GC to admit that they've been groomed since young.  My own brother is a fallen GC.....he will never admit that he was the GC.  It is a different mindset than myself, the SG. 

[IRedW77]

Well, I was honestly speaking about arrogance from my own personal perspective, and lacing in some from Lawson's Understanding the Borderline Mother. If you haven't read that already it might have some insight into your DH.

Just reading the section on the "all-good-child" might have a lot of familiar things in it. I highlighted that book as a I read it—yellow for stuff that just resonated and stuff that sounded familiar. I used orange for the holy sh** she's talking about me stuff—almost every word of that section was orange.

She's very blunt with the if they're this thing then they have these traits. It's not perfect, but it's on more often than off if you find the section that's actually about you. Based on how matter of fact she is and how much it fit my experience I have to guess that the effects are fairly predictable.

I just shared my interpretations of her stuff and my own interpretations of my own self-analysis and experience.

I'd wager that DH has some buried self esteem issues that inform a lot of this—probably so buried that he isn't even aware of them. The GC apparently is not good at self diagnosis. But we think we are! Personally I just need to be put on the path and then I unravel the rest myself, but finding the path...

I'm going to go ahead and wager that your DH hasn't done therapy and has no intention of ever doing it. Maybe? It's in the book.

I'll tell you that I was in therapy for almost a year before I started talking about my mother. My therapist diagnosed my mother as likely BPD in one session once I did. But I'll also tell you that I resisted therapy for 20+ years before I finally had enough troubles I couldn't handle to give in to it. It's all about having kids really, once you do that you start to relive your own childhood.

I'd be the first one to tell you that my mother is difficult and selfish. But that's as far as I thought it went. I'm the GC, so I can deal with her better than anyone else on earth. My poor wife can't stand to be alone with her for 5 minutes.

Your DH can handle her better than anyone else, and he doesn't get as much of a hard time from her as literally anyone else does—as scary as that is. They train you to think that you can handle them and that they aren't that bad!

As for the rest with your DH there are a lot of variables that make his experience different than mine. Your footer said that he became enmeshed after his mother became a widow. Was that recently? That alone is a big difference. If she had someone else to feed on then he probably got spared a lot as a kid. There's also BIL to take some of the heat. Whatever role he play(ed) that was something that didn't have to come from DH. You also said "his siblings," so more as well?

It's really ugly when the BPD waif mom loses her partner. The GC instantly gets assigned all of the partner's responsibilities. If that happened later in life, even if it happened like after the age of 10 or so that's a big difference. He just hasn't been used up enough for long enough to feel the need to break away.

I'm an only child. My parents split when I was 5. So from 5 years old on I was it. So I had 100% of that burden myself and I think I burned out sooner. I shifted the power balance by the time I was a teenager and broke away emotionally long ago. I'm honestly excited to have the BPD understanding of my mom. It explains so much.

I can't imagine it being embarrassing to admit to being the GC. Maybe it's a sibling dynamic that I just don't understand.

As for his work, it's better to be the king of the idiots than to risk being challenged by someone that just might be smarter than you. Part of being the GC is having a hidden lack of self confidence. I loved being the smartest one in the room in my undergraduate years. It's the only way to experience confidence—when you can actually back up that arrogance. I hated being around people in postgrad that could outdo me at this or that.

I'd imagine that it's just not so cut and dried for him with his PD as it was for you with yours. You need to find ways of showing him the disconnects in his mother's behavior without just pointing them out yourself. Help him come to it on his own without him realizing what you're doing. I can't be pushed if I know I'm being pushed. Im not suggesting doing anything in a manipulative way, but help what he needs to see be his own ideas.

My wife does this with me from time to time. She just lets me walk right into something she knows I'll hate. She knows that if she tries to tell me "you'll hate this" I won't listen anyway. If she lets me figure it out on my own in a controlled way it'll be my choice and it'll work out better. Of course she'll walk me into the worst version first, but that's honestly a time saver. She just loves to tell anecdotes about these moments later on.

It's just...you see the truth that he doesn't, and you don't have the patience to BS over it. It's just your SG experience being so different from his GC. Your experience taught you to snap right Out of the FOG, but he just doesn't see he's in it. I don't blame you. It's frustrating as hell, but guide him to it gently. Or find someone else that he'll listen to and get him talking to them.

[tragedy or hope]

I can identify with being/talking with the PD parent and unpdh being a different person after. This has been the case our whole life together. From an abusive father my DH is still trying to make the connection. I don't want to see the father anymore because he is like a letch. He glooms on to me, wants hugs, stares... he has issues. He is in his 90's now and of course there is concern for his health.

Unpdh still calls him once a week or so, to talk about nothing. But he comes away from the convo "different." behaving and talking like his dad, and a little lost. I don't like it because it reinforces his pd behaviors. I can't change it, but I have learned to expect it.

Same with his ailing sister. He waits till I am not home and cannot hear his conversations to call her too. She is also imo a Narcissist.  I hope when I get home there has been something happen in between to buffer the experience for him. It weird. They are all a narcisisstic feed for one another, I know it sounds bad, but the sister has a house in the town my unpdh was raised. He has always loved the house as it has been in the family...

The father, may or may not have something unpdh wants. Lets remember for PD's the world is about them and them only. They do what it takes to get what they want. He comes out as their hero as he has the life that seems more normal. That makes him superior. It also makes him more separate from me and our life after he talks to them. They are always trying to get him back in the fold. I am their competition.

I get a third person message that they love me. Ha!  LIke I believe that. They are curious about me because I don't ever and I mean ever speak to them. Once every 10 years maybe. Love? What a sham! But unpdh. believes they "love" me.  La La land.

[Pepin]

I can identify with being/talking with the PD parent and unpdh being a different person after.

I can't change it, but I have learned to expect it.

Lets remember for PD's the world is about them and them only. They do what it takes to get what they want. He comes out as their hero as he has the life that seems more normal. That makes him superior. It also makes him more separate from me and our life after he talks to them. They are always trying to get him back in the fold. I am their competition.

I get a third person message that they love me. Ha! 

Yes...to all of this.  This is exactly how it is.  I feel that when DH steps into superhero mode, he becomes detached from me and our life together.  And yes, that sense of feeling superior seems to translate into a vein of arrogance.  He will often express frustration that only he can do things for PDmil because he can do them right. 

Also, while it doesn't seem like it, and DH will defend this to the end of the earth, PDmil does behave from a place of arrogance quite frequently.  I could never pinpoint this because it was so covert.  There is no doubt in my mind that she stacks herself up against her peers and other family members based on what her children can do for her, especially DH.  It gives her something to beam about...even though she does nothing.  And I think that is the point.....doing nothing and having things done for you.  Even her and DH sometimes gossip about other family members behind their backs....but it is PDmil that initiates those conversations.  She's bored and has zero on her plate.  Of course she is going to gossip.