My first NC holiday: hoovers and gifting

[DistanceNotDefense]

Feeling ok this holiday season, my first one NC. Going strong. Generally, I'm actually happy. It's going to be a low-key holiday. I have no plans to send gifts to FOO, PDs and enablers alike. I said my piece months ago about the smear campaign against DH and I, the awful things they all said and believed, especially about DH. I will not JADE about it. I will happily respond to communication if they wish to address the issue and talk about it in a healthy way that doesn't poison my mind. I refuse to rug sweep or go along with the game that everything is OK. I do not want or expect gifts from them. I have not communicated that, because doing so means being in contact.

I am getting gifts and hoovers from them though. A message from one enabler sib, that a package is on the way. Just received package from M (covert Narc tendencies) today. Wasn't expecting it. Oh well. I still don't want to send presents and just want 0 involvement. Nothing, of course, from uNPD/uASPD sib - for whom the rules dictate she can do whatever she likes, even not gifting when other members are expected to. Hoovers have thrown me off a little, but I bounce back, remembering the insanity and anxiety and horror of being in contact with them last year. This is worth it. I refuse to be pulled back in.

The hardest part is my DH. Who has been the most viciously targeted in all this, even more than me, which is ironic. I understand that people who didn't grow up with them don't fully get PDs, it would take overt behavior for him to realize, but it's like he's way more in FOG than me. He does say that he backs me up 100% and my approach to the situation, but he doesn't fully understand, clearly.

"They're sending gifts. They're doing their best, some people this is the best they can do," he says about the situation. To which I say, "how do you interpret presents sent to you for Xmas, from people who talk about you being an evil controlling wife-beater behind your back? They owe you a huge apology. And the way they work is that they never apologize."

"I don't need an apology," says DH. Trying to be the bigger person maybe. Or just trying to disconnect/dissociate from the crazy reality of all this? He then says "Can I send your mother a thank you note?" I explained how that was exactly what she wants: contact, and validation to her that this is not a big deal. It would probably be a dream come true if they somehow even turned *him* against *me.* Because that would mean they were right! He gets it, kind of, he agrees not to send a message. He gets it but doesn't at the same time, I guess I don't blame him. People don't deal with this, it is almost unearthly and unheard of.

I'm just so saddened that if he were in my shoes, he would be a total doormat. But it really is having no impact on my behavior, or my decision, it is just a huge bummer that he thinks he deserves that treatment from his in-laws. I think he really does see himself as "beneath" them. I will stick up for him, though, even of he can't for himself, because he has been that amazing of a partner to me. I can only pray it won't be like this forever.

I hope everyone else's holidays are going smooth. And just want to add that if anyone is dealing with someone close who is still completely FOGged by your family, I totally relate. If you're feeling no validation at all for NC too, know that you can talk to me about it, I know how hard it is. I will back you up 100%. Listen to your gut and your body. It knows best.

Happy holidays and much love and hugs to you all  ❤️

[lemonpie]

Thank you so much for posting this. I am frequently on this board, lurking in the background, absorbing knowledge from others and their experiences and trying to learn best I can how to move forward. This is my first holiday season NC from my uNPD father and FOO. It's been 11 months of silence from me with intermittent periods of intimidation and hoovering from narc dad and sibling.

Long story short, my mum left my dad after 36 long years. She was very much and an enabler of his narc behaviour that found myself in the SC role and my younger brother the GC. Short of a breakdown she basically ran away from him (ie left with no plan and stayed with me and my family for 9 months). I, in his eyes am of course the party responsible for their separation... my reason for NC was pushed by their separation but mostly it was death by 1000 cuts and constant boundary breaking.

We've had a few months of silence which have been almost blissful but then on my birthday in November, I unwittingly took delivery of a birthday gift from my narc father (donated) and today I found out there was a gift sent to the house from him for my 4YO son (again donated).

I thought I was doing well, but each point of attempted contact throws me way off track. I feel angry, irrationally guilt and unjustified in my NC. I am desperately trying to focus on the holidays for my son and DH but it is so hard. On top of all of this, we have literally just moved across country (narc dad has no idea) and I feel an overwhelming sense of guilt from NC. I am really struggling with this at the moment and find at times questioning my justification for NC and if I am actually the terrible person causing all this pain and hurt. Was it me all along? I really just want to fade into the sunset but uNPD father seems determined to try to play the dotting father/grandfather through unwanted gifts mainly because he can't contact my mum (she now has her own apartment which he has no idea where). But I haven't forgotten all the horrible messages he sent me less the years of psychological and emotion abuse in that family. It feels like he has a death grip on me, does it ever loosen?

[DistanceNotDefense]

Hi lemonpie! I relate a lot to feeling like I am "going off track." PD FOO know us better than anyone else, unfortunately, and how to wheedle away at our sympathy and empathy to cause us to abandon ourselves. After all, they raised us.

The emotions will come and go, but we can always stay the course.

I've gotten more hoovers even since I've written. Two messages from covert Narc M. How well designed they are, to overcome my instincts of self-protection and to flood me with "loving" memories of her, so I rush back to her side and hope she's OK.

DH tells me she's alone on Xmas and posting on SM about how people tend to contemplate suicide on the holiday. Hmmm that's a really, really new one. Only he can see her, I have her blocked.

But where was she when I was at my lowest, and struggling with all those things in avery real way? Deliberately avoiding me.

Remember that these types of beck-and-call triggers to support parents/PDs, at the expense of ourselves, were sort of "installed" in us since birth. In my case now, my M's pushing all those buttons in me but they just don't work anymore, when they worked when I was a kid/teenager.

The emotions caused by that button pushing are still there. I've felt weak more than once in the past 24 hours, including even an impulse to message her back. I will not. I will deal with the feelings. They will pass. I am disconnecting and de-programming, it's just part of the painful process. I remember how good it felt to leave the circus and it's monkeys behind the first day I decided on NC.

Be gentle with yourself. I feel guilty about this all the time, but it's OK not to act on it for your own self-interest and well-being, instead of for FOO's. We have a right to take a responsibility for our happiness and health, and our PD FOO absolutely have that right, too. Unfortunately, the way they see it, our responsibility is to them and they can't do it for themselves.

Does that mean we should?

Guilt just means you still have empathy for them.

And think about it: do you think your uNPD father is second guessing himself, that he might have been the terrible one? Doesn't seem likely. If he had, he'd probably have reached out in a more relational way by now if it was really bugging him that bad, like it bugs you. My M, too.

But they haven't. Instead months go by, and this tells me she's pretty secure in her opinion that she's done nothing wrong.

I think we both know that if we're honest with PD FOO about how we non-PD people could have of course made mistakes along the way ourselves, they wouldn't use it as an opportunity to come clean. They'd use it to point out how right they are.

Admitting fault is just one of the many things they want.

You reflect and double check your actions to make sure they seem justified. But they aren't doing that. They aren't feeling guilt. Of course it's hard to feel like it's justified when all you get back is denial, and no guilt on their end!

The guilt has been huge for me early on with NC but it does get easier. I've experienced invaluable advice from folks on this forum to help me. E.g. every time you're overcome with guilt, think of a great FOC relationship you have. Or, keep FOO out of your mind and reserve thinking about them only on certain days. (The guilt can eat up my mind quick!)

I hope the holiday gets easier for you lemonpie, you're not alone and getting through the wall of guilt early on seems to be just part of the deal. You're strong.

I do think the death grip will loosen. It's an illusion they create to have a hold on you.

And once we realize it's just a scary mirage in the desert, that's when we can start taking our lives back.

[Amedee]

DistanceNotDefense, I remember you wrote some helpful responses to me when I posted a while back about my husband not understanding my NC and how painful and isolating it can be.

He kept trying to soften my stance by drawing me into conversation about them so this summer we reached a stalemate of sorts.  I told him I won't be discussing my family with him.  If it comes up in conversation I will ignore it.  So, it's Christmas and I'm sticking to my guns.  Heartbreaking, but kind of nice!  It's a break in the FOG.  It can usually take very little to flip me into profound torment and self doubt over FOO.  Like you said, we learned early to abandon and doubt ourselves, and willingly make most of the many small and big sacrifices required to maintain a connection.  I was in the habit of caretaking their emotions like fragile china.  Purely out of fear.  My family's toxicity is so subtle and deniable ... I have given up trying to explain to all but the very few who may have experienced something similar.   

Anyhoo ... I can report that setting that boundary has really helped me clarify my thinking.  The self- torment I finally saw, stems from my own willingness to place impossible demands on myself re: relating to PD and FM family.  It is so habitual for me to throw my "Self" out the window, and shape-shift into whatever is needed to keep the familial connection going.   The reason my Husband could trigger me so much in this regard is because I didn't have the self assurance to calmly and imperfectly stand my ground and choose not to care what he or anyone else thinks or feels.   The more I give myself permission to do that, the more clearly I see how lopsided my expectations of myself have been. 

I used to think that carrying the guilt was a way of keeping my conscience somewhat clear.  It was a way of showing my love and caring.  The opposite is true, though.  Only when I have shed all false guilt and feel perfectly comfortable disappointing them with my wonderfully imperfect self will any kind of rapprochement be possible.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Hi Amedee, it's so great to see your response here, especially in regard to this somewhat similar situation you were in as well a while ago. I appreciate it so much and I hope you are well! It seems like things are better with you and DH on that front and that is so good!

It sounds also like you've come to the same conclusions about boundaries that I did... I've always felt guilty about boundaries in close relationships, always reneging them because I thought that's what love is and what you do, and if the other person acts upset about them or disagrees, I'd do anything to make that emotion of dissatisfaction go away because THEIR emotion clearly meant that *I* did something wrong. What a light bulb moment it has been to realize that just because they feel that way, doesn't mean I'm wrong! Holy cow.

And what you say about guilt being interpreted as a clear conscience....wow, that's me, too! I automatically feel this way. It's a really hard thing to fight, I really struggle with this, I think my only saving grace is that I can also be stubborn....

My family's toxicity is so subtle and deniable ... I have given up trying to explain to all but the very few who may have experienced something similar.   

Same here! I think I need to use your same approach, and particularly leave my covert NM off the table for a while. My FOO is charming and it's very difficult to see the dysfunction from the outside, especially my M, all the way; I really don't think he understands how her opinions behind the scenes, and even inaction, have been fueling the smear campaign against us like crazy. He's charmed by how she's flattered him openly here and there in the past, sent him gifts and money, etc. so I get that it's difficult to let go. But her beliefs about him behind his back, that have made their way to me and been said to my face, are awful. I just don't think he's ever dealt with someone that two-faced in all his life, he doesn't see it, it's not something even found in his culture.

It's frustrating because he can see what's off about my siblings, though, just not my uNM. I may post about this separately later in the siblings forum, but I got a *very* guilt-inducing and self-pitying hoover from my younger sib today, who I've been torn over whether she is an enabler, very flea-ridden, or maybe a very covert Narc just like my M all along. After the hoover I'm starting to fall into the possible Narc camp, which is a huge thing to digest for me, considering we were so close for over a decade (seems just like enmeshment now...)

And DH completely backed me up after I read her hoover message aloud to him, getting angry with me and saying how sh@#ty and unbelievable it was - how my sib alleged that I wasn't being there for her (after she created the space), that her emotional state was my responsibility, and then said "I miss you," all in one breath, as if that would make me scramble to text her back.

So he sees it to some degree...but can't grasp the covertness of it yet, or conceive even that maybe my M could have been the one who encouraged my sib to say this to me (they talk all the time and it's totally possible) or that she could be orchestrating so much simply by not defending me or him behind our backs, letting my siblings have a piranha-like frenzy against us in her presence, or even pull the strings in a way that they are saying precisely what she wants them to say to me, so she doesn't have to. But for right now, that's "too paranoid" for him.

But like Kurt Cobain said ... Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you....

[Amedee]

" But like Kurt Cobain said ... Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you...."

Lololol ..... Yes!   It took me many decades before I could even the entertain the thought that maybe my M (and F) had something to do with the cool rejection I always felt from my brothers.  I was/am constantly in the habit of reflexively scanning myself and my actions for what could elicit such chronic contempt.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Lololol ..... Yes!   It took me many decades before I could even the entertain the thought that maybe my M (and F) had something to do with the cool rejection I always felt from my brothers.  I was/am constantly in the habit of reflexively scanning myself and my actions for what could elicit such chronic contempt.

"Cool rejection" is such a great way of putting it. About sums up my relationship with my older siblings growing up. I now wonder how much of it my M secretly orchestrated, but it's been so, SO covert if so. Sadly, it all adds up.

Leading up to NC, my younger sib started giving me this "cool" treatment, too, along with the rest of them, even though we'd been so close; she flipped. She would parrot them a lot when we were all younger too, and sometimes flip to being mean to me as the SG just like they would be, I think to be accepted and survive in our family. I'd forgotten this.

So I finally "accept" the icy rejection and respond with silence. I go away, rejected, NC. But that is not their goal, either. According to these hoovers, my pain and their disdain somehow validate their existence. Now she's saying all sorts of things to get me back in (with no apology).

The validation is not from seeing it happen once, because once is never enough. They hope to put it on replay forever: seeing me be rejected again, and again, and again to reaffirm to themselves that I was the loser all along, they were the winners. Why they have tricked me and called this love, I will never understand.

It is shocking to really, fully see how much family almost enjoys seeing loved ones in pain like this. And I can't believe they kept it this covert for so long and I didn't see it.

[Amedee]

"It is shocking to really, fully see how much family almost enjoys seeing loved ones in pain like this. And I can't believe they kept it this covert for so long and I didn't see it."

Yep, yep, and yep.  It is shocking, and it sickens me that it has taken me so much of my life to see that that's what is going on.  And that I may always struggle with internalizing this baffling truth. 

This should probably go on the resources page, but I just discovered this counselor called Jay Reid who has some very good short videos on youtube about ACONs.  He also has a blog.  Jay succinctly spells out exactly why the narcissistic parent/family member has to project their own worthlessness out, and onto their child.  How they do it.  And why the child is forced to lay aside Self and become a willing receptacle.