FIL's behaviour

[Hilltop]

Every New Years Eve we go to my in laws for dinner.  MIL went through a stage of not preparing dinner and we would bring a dish and she would get take out however the last couple of years she has prepared numerous dishes a mix of take out and a homemade dish.   I have a favourite dish and I continue to bring it over to eat.  Its all fairly casual.

My FIL doesn't eat at the table if I am there.  He will eat at the table if other people are present.  The excuse given is that he has medication and needs to eat at a certain time which is fine.  MIL went through a stage for a few years of also not sitting at the table when we were invited for a meal. There was no excuse for her and I came to realize that FIL's excuse was probably made up.  So DH and I would sit at the table and eat the food they had prepared and FIL and MIL would go off elsewhere in the house or the yard and we would eat alone.  It has always made me uncomfortable.

On New Years eve we sat down to eat and MIL called FIL to the table and he refused.  She then got him a plate to eat in another room.  It became obvious to me that he was eating just not at the table.  I decided to eat food only from the dish I had brought.  It can not be considered normal to invite people over to eat and then not sit with them at the table.  DH doesn't eat meals there by himself so I don't know if FIL would sit at a table with him.  FIL appears ok at other times but they asked some really weird questions during the evening such as grilling me about how I travel to work wanting to know the minutes it takes me and whether I walked.  It was so odd.  At one stage MIL said to FIL, see she does walk.  I have no idea what this is about but again it just made me uncomfortable. 

Dh of course complimented MIL and told her "look at all the dishes, it's so great", I said nothing.  I also took my own plate and cutlery and washed it and sat down.  I do not want to eat from people who are not willing to even sit at a table with me. 

I have thought about inviting them to our house for dinner and then getting up and washing up as they eat however I couldn't be that rude to guests in our house.  I simply want nothing further from them.  I realise my response is childish but on some level I wonder if it matters.  I can't change them however I can stop accepting anything from them including their limited hospitality, to me its like I am rejecting the sub par hospitality which would be shameful in their own culture.  In their culture hospitality is everything so I really don't believe they think this is normal.

I simply don't want anything from them, I don't want to eat their food, I don't want to help her wash up, I want nothing, I will go, be pleasant enough, take care of my own food and cleaning up after myself and then leave but I don't want to eat their food again.  DH will not do anything else for New Years and I don't want to celebrate bringing in the new year alone so I will continue to go.  I do not want to make an effort in having them to our house either.  I just don't know if I am seeing FILs behaviour wrong, am I being oversensitive?

[SweetTea]

I simply don't want anything from them, I don't want to eat their food, I don't want to help her wash up, I want nothing, I will go, be pleasant enough, take care of my own food and cleaning up after myself and then leave but I don't want to eat their food again.  DH will not do anything else for New Years and I don't want to celebrate bringing in the new year alone so I will continue to go. 

You are not being oversensitive! Their behavior is not normal, is extremely rude, and clearly calculated to hurt you.

Please forgive my bluntness, but you already are spending New Years Eve alone. Your in-law family systematically invites you over to then ignore and abuse you through an annual tradition of shunning.   

Other than being at the same place as your spouse on NYE, it doesn't sound like you derive anything joyful or positive from this annual tradition. Maybe it's time to start your own tradition that is in no way tied to or inclusive of your in-laws. It might be better for your emotional health to ring in the New Year alone and treat yourself like a queen than to ring it in with 'family' who goes out of their way to behave as though you don't exist.

[Poison Ivy]

SweetTea said what I'm thinking.

[Thru the Rain]

This almost feels like you and DH are put at the "kid's table" when you're there, and the "adults" don't eat at the same table or the same food or at the same time. I'm almost wondering if the take-out your MIL brings is chicken nuggets and mac & cheese (classic kid food).

[Hilltop]

Thru the rain, close it's KFC as take out.  MIL does now sit at the table and she will eat a little with us, which is why I look at her behaviour of not sitting at the table previously as a sign of disrespect.  MIL even calls him to come and eat and then he says no and it's just uncomfortable, you would think they would have offered some excuse as not to offend but they don't even do that, MIL has a place for him, calls him over and then he says no in front of everyone and no he doesn't have dementia.  They do this every time, surely MIL knows he will not sit at the table but she makes a production of it.

I know there isn't much to be done, I have given up so much already.  I am not going to bring in the new year alone but each time it happens I am still left surprised, which is silly of me, I should be use to it by now.  In part FIL is also doing this to DH so that is why I sometimes wonder if I am being overly sensitive.  I suppose if this was the only thing they did it would be different but with a host of other behaviours, I guess I can't help but think of it negatively.

I did feel good about only eating my own food and not partaking in anything to do with them and so I will continue this little tradition as my own, each year, for me.  I am venting, hopefully in another couple of days I will move on.  I just don't like the days after interacting with them, when I feel edgy and upset.

[BettyGray]

My goodness Hilltop,
Reading your words made me feel like I just watched a tv show. Quelle dramatique!

Believe it or not, I have been in this scenario- more or less.

My Nfather is a truly strange person. If he isn’t interested in the people or conversation, he just retreats to his odd little office or goes to “lie down” because of whatever phantom pain...

We would drive 14 hrs or so to visit. He would sit with us and my Nmom for a few minutes, then he would just leave. Not that we wanted to spend time with him. I don’t think it had anything to do with DH (but who knows, because there’s always something wrong with them - motivation doesn’t even matter).

Holiday dinners - last to come downstairs for dinner. Would get a plate and either sit silently at the table, or be the last person to make a plate and then take it upstairs....to eat ALONE. After dinner, everyone would gather in the living room. He would slink back downstairs and do the dishes alone, to avoid participating in the family visit.

This was totally normal - everyone expected it. Honestly I think it was a win-win for everyone. He would just find a way to cause chaos and get Nsupply doing so. At my moms backyard retirement party, he didn’t come out of the house the whole time. It think it was vertigo that day that was afflicting him ...
It was rudder, of course, but my mom was fine with it. It was HER day after all.

I think this should be your last New Year’s Eve in “Dramaville.” The show should be canceled, not picked up for another season. What they do is just cruelty. I am so sorry this is how you have spent NYE. How enmeshed is your DH? If he isn’t having fun, and you aren’t either, perhaps plant a seed in a few months about maybe just doing something the two of you. New Year’s Eve is supposed to be fun and hopeful. Not miserable and hopeless, mistreated by a couple of crazy weirdos. They’re the problem. Not you.

Not only are you not over sensitive, you are the only sane sounding one. In laws like this are toxic AF. The red flags are on fire! Treat yourself well. Hugs.

[Hilltop]

Thanks Liz, your NF sounds like a real sour miserable old man.  I can't believe you drove all that way for him to just walk away and ignore you.  Ugh.

DH is very enmeshed.  His parents are getting older and I have in the past tried to mix things up and this is a no go.  It's the only event of the year they want to celebrate and DH has said he will continue to go every year.  He is adamant on it.

I think with FIL it's also sexist.  He has a lot of time for males such as his oldest male grandchild, no time for the girl though, DH's male childhood friend etc.  The nephew is now estranged as is the whole family and they are only concerned about the nephew and other son not seeing them.  Their other DIL who came to see them and brought all the grandchildren to see them when their own son wouldn't, is not mentioned, they don't seem to care she is not there.  So Liz when you say your father wasn't interested I think this is largely it, FIL simply isn't interested on not only the company but the conversation.  That actually makes sense.

I usually end up seeing them a handle of times throughout the year, these visits don't bother me as it's never for a meal, it's just an hour or less and we are gone. However this year I plan not to see them until 31/12/2021.  That's my new goal for this year.   I think I will do the things that brought me happiness such as eating my favourite dish that I bought, drinking my own favourite wine and I will continue sending off my new years texts/meme's with my friends which made me feel so warm.  I did that after dinner this year.

I've started a lot of healing work continuing from last year and hopefully, fingers crossed I am in a better place at the end of this year and I can leave their rudeness where is belongs which is with them.

[Hilltop]

So I was doing an exercise today.  I have always thought of my parents and my MIL as the problem people in my life.  When I think of my FIL I have thought of him as being kind, in fact when he was in hospital a while back I told him he was like a father to me.  The exercise was to write down what you think a person is like so for the first time I did this with my FIL.  I wrote a list with the attributes I think he has.  Then you have to write another list thinking of that person objectively.  So I thought of FIL objectively, thinking more about his actions and the list came out so different.  In part I think I had listened to DH and his views on his father.  When I went back to the first list, I realised that I couldn't even think of examples as to why I thought he was a certain way.  Why did I ever think he was a like a father to me, he has not once acted in a fatherly manner toward me. The first thing that comes to mind when I think of FIL is kind however when I wrote the second list I saw that yes FIL is kind to animals but he hasn't always been kind to me.  I thought of things with other people as well.  I realised that I don't see FIL as DH sees him.

When I think of the first list I understand why I go to New Years and come back so disappointed and confused because a kind father type of person wouldn't act that way.

When I think of the second list and think about New Years FIL's behaviour doesn't surprise me.  In fact it makes more sense that he would act that way. 

So I came to realise that I have a habit of accepting other people's opinions rather than trusting my own opinion and beliefs about people. 

I also came to realise that I don't really like FIL which surprised me a lot  because I have always thought I liked him, the truth is, I don't like him. He does have good qualities and I acknowledge those qualities in him however he is not that person I originally thought him to be.  Even when I look back over the years, he isn't that person I believed him to be. 

It's a start and hopefully moving forward understanding him differently I can leave his unpleasantness with him rather than taking it onboard. 

[bloomie]

When I think of the first list I understand why I go to New Years and come back so disappointed and confused because a kind father type of person wouldn't act that way.

When I think of the second list and think about New Years FIL's behaviour doesn't surprise me.  In fact, it makes more sense that he would act that way. 

So I came to realise that I have a habit of accepting other people's opinions rather than trusting my own opinion and beliefs about people. 

I also came to realise that I don't really like FIL which surprised me a lot  because I have always thought I liked him, the truth is, I don't like him. He does have good qualities and I acknowledge those qualities in him however he is not that person I originally thought him to be.  Even when I look back over the years, he isn't that person I believed him to be. 

It's a start and hopefully moving forward understanding him differently I can leave his unpleasantness with him rather than taking it onboard.

Hilltop - How powerful to dig into the deeper truths of why the NYE behavior from your fil was so triggering and disappointing! And to examine your actual experiences with another person and draw conclusions for yourself from their choices and words over time about if you even actually like and enjoy them. 

I had to understand, about my own in law family, that for the most part, they develop a kind of family 'persona' for people that is unquestioned and that everyone is expected to buy into and that usually does not line up with that person's actual character and behaviors in my own experience of them. 

From the very first interaction I had with my in laws, I realized after some time, that they began offering me the family version of 'who' everyone is, most importantly and emphatically, who my DH is/has been/will be forevermore. I simply had never encountered anything like it. It was uncomfortable - that I recognized. And it was emphatic and unmovable.

And I also realized much later, at the very beginning they began to delve into how I was going to be boxed up and labeled and how I 'fit' and did not 'fit' (how much they perceived I am the same as them and how much different) into the image they have of themselves and their family and the image they are passionate about showing to the world which does not have to have anything to do with how things actually are, if that makes sense?

There is a sad absence of interest in actually knowing each other and seeing and celebrating each other and how we grow and develop and change over time. There is a kind of defeat and stagnant emotional air in the room where the same scenes, conversations, and behaviors play out over and over again.

Some people, some events, are part of our life package. You have found a way to acknowledge that NYE with the in laws is uncomfortable and inhospitable. And you have found ways to quietly take a stand and be present, to show yourself hospitality and kindness, and adjust your level of engagement and expectations to be in line with what they are actually offering you. BRAVO!!

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hilltop, for myself I used to believe that my in-laws were a caring family, and I was lucky to have married into a family that was nicer than my own. They are nicer than my own, but I'm still NC with them all now. I never expressed the sentiment of "like a father to me," but I can see how that bar would be extremely low for someone coming from a family where the father got all of the accolades and honors and did very little of the actual duties of being a father. You responded based on your experience, and as your knowledge and experience have grown, so have your perceptions of your FIL. I don't know your FOO story, but for me, saying someone was "like a father to me" would have been a reflection of that love-starved little girl in me.

[Hilltop]

Bloomie yes to everything you wrote.  So spot on. They definitely have a family persona and I bought into it and really bought into it for years.  Where you wrote about the sad absence of knowing each other and getting to know each other, it is stagnant and it is the same conversation year after year.  Not to mention that they use language as a barrier so any time I have asked them questions about their families the conversation gets shut down. When I've asked about their home land or food from there, shut down. I had noticed FIL's sexist attitude toward the nurses when he was in hospital and I just pushed it away, made excuses and I remember after I said he was like a father to me that I also told DH that I realise he didn't feel the same way about me but it was how I felt.  I didn't even stop to think that it didn't make sense, how can you think someone is like a father to you but also think they don't like you.  And the scary thing is, I didn't even see how at odds this was at the time.  It was normal to me.

I do think I've found a way forward that shows kindness to myself and I will continue to do that, it's for one night and I think going into it without the expectations will be much easier. 

Call me Cordelia, yep I also use to describe my inlaws as a caring family, I use to say they were so close, also that they were nicer than my own.  I thought they were so close with DH and by marriage I thought I would be brought into the fold. Really I went from my own dysfunctional family into a dysfunctional inlaw family.  Its funny that you mention that love starved little girl.  I remember being so angry, furious with my MIL when she rejected me.  Now it seems so obvious that I was really furious because I thought I would be brought into the fold of this caring family and the rejection was too much after being rejected by my FOO.  Fast forward and I see they aren't always that caring even with DH.  He shows them things where he has done well with work for eg and I see them almost ignore it, not say much and it surprises me because I have this imagine they are so loving and yet it isn't loving behaviour I see.  Even with their oldest male grandchild when he didn't visit for a while and their other DIL said he was stressed at his new job and was suffering from anxiety, they didn't care, they only cared about the fact that he wasn't visiting them, they didn't pick up the phone to ask about his job or offer support.  The concern was for themselves only.

Late last year I started some work on the inner child, more exercises lol, there were some exercises about giving compassion and love to your inner child, meditations etc and at the time I thought it helped a little but possibly now that I am striving to give compassion to myself, I do the meditations each night, perhaps I no longer need that parent figure.  It's funny that now I see FIL as himself without seeing him as that loving parental figure.  Perhaps that work helped more than I thought.

I have a long way to go, but I'm more determined than ever to keep doing my meditations and exercises and read this forum which has helped tremendously.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I thought more about you and the “like a father to me” idea today. You know who is like a father to me? The writing instructor on my son’s DVD lessons!!! Really! I have met and spoken at length with this man in person, but it’s still really an odd thing to say. I had to stop myself from fangirling all over a humble middle aged teacher, though I did get a selfie “for the kids at co-op.” He clearly has a passion for teaching and is very encouraging and so very gentle and good-humored. He is very good at pointing out what the students have done well and refraining from criticism. So when I was in EMDR I tried to replace my inner critic with this instructor. I think we all are craving a father, so we will attach to whatever plausible (or implausible) father figure is available to us.

[BettyGray]

I had to understand, about my own in law family, that for the most part, they develop a kind of family 'persona' for people that is unquestioned and that everyone is expected to buy into and that usually does not line up with that person's actual character and behaviors in my own experience of them.

Oh, yes. One thing that fascinates me is watching how people often put on an act/try to be on their “best behavior” when they meet new people. I saw this with a lot of my clients over the years, especially mothers and daughters. The longer I worked with them, the more that facade melted away. They think their act works on everyone. People can be very charming when they step into this type of persona.

My ILs are funny this way. When they meet new people, their personalities become a lot more phony. It’s kind of entertaining. At this point I know a lot of it is massive insecurity, so it’s funny to watch the show. DH and I just roll our eyes at each other like, “Oh, here he/she goes again.”  With FIL, it’s joking around when he is nervous- it puts up a protective shield, puts the new person at ease, and gives him supply all at once. MIL just starts talking, talking, talking (and she talks nonstop anyway ) to hide her awkwardness. Or she rudely (and I think, clueless that she is being rude) inserts herself into conversations. She is terrified of being left out.

Again, they’re low level PDs/flea-ridden, but not bad or cruel people. I think they are both socially awkward and react to that in different ways.

I guess I am most troubled at this point with how your husband refuses to budge on this. I don’t think he is trying to put you in a harmful situation- it sounds more like he is deeeeeeeep in the fog. Besides, even if he knows the truth, he is going to claim he is stuck in the middle and it’s better not to rock the boat.

In reality, “ keeping the peace” comes at a high cost. Right now, you’re the one footing the Bill with your mental health, while he remains the “good boy” his parents want and need him to be. He may think he is doing the right thing for everyone, but in this case, it’s not his choice to make for you.

This is such a hard situation. My husband used to claim he was in the middle. He is still way too dutiful, but has gotten much better. Honestly, they’re choosing to be in the middle when they should be on our side. There is no other side. Once I reminded him of this (like, a gazillion times), he got the message. I told him I have no sympathy for his sentiment (which made him the victim, those on either side the perpetrators).

In reality, I believe much of this stems from his parents’ divorce. The court ordered him to pick with which parent he wanted to live. That’s just horrendous to do to a 12 year-old. It’s been a lifelong, exhaustive balancing act to try to please each parent equally, while satisfying no one. Neither parent will ever be satisfied, he will be miserable, and I’ll be miserable. Classic people pleaser, which we all know, is a losing position.

Marriage counseling helped a lot. My therapist helped him see that  his parents’ demands on him were not normal or fair, that they were detrimental to him and our marriage. But old habits die hard, and I doubt he will relax and get to grow out of their shadows until they’re both gone. The problem is, what damage will be done by the time that happens?

At the same time, expecting our spouses/partners to suddenly stand up to their parents after a lifetime of conditioning and unspoken rules,  is unrealistic. Obviously they are scared to, so it’s no wonder they  try to ignore that the *already rocking* boat has a hole in it.

Not to generalize, but I have found that some men can be stubborn, resent being told what to do, and tend to stop listening when we get too angry or emotional. It’s pathetic that we have walk on eggshells, approach them with kid gloves, stroke their egos and suppress our own rage in order to be able to communicate. Oftentimes we have to let them think that some things are their idea, in order to have any kind of breakthrough. It’s so weird.

The old saying “catch more flies with honey” applies well to these interactions. It’s so annoying when we are angry, want justice, (or just to have an adult conversation) that they just defend themselves. Plus, many men who don’t know how to express their emotions, or are afraid of confrontation, and, on a subconscious level, are happy to let you express that anger for them. Then they can turn it around on you, while avoiding any real emotional release of their own.

It’s very cowardly, yes, but I think many of them are just scared little boys, especially the ones who have been burned by showing vulnerability to a PD parent.

It’s a  sharp double-edged sword. Hard not to feel sympathy for them, having awful parents who barraged them with warped, confusing messages. On the other hand, they’re grown adults who should put us /our families first. Denying their own actions/responsibility just infuriates us more. I feel for you, as you didn’t choose this, and yet you’re powerless to do much about it yourselves. I have shed many tears feeling unheard and disregarded about things that are serious, damaging  issues with his parental dynamic.

So...as unnatural as it may feel, if you are gentle in your approach, patient, and can see him as a scared child, it may help you temper some of your resentment. Yelling, making suggestions for him, crying, pleading - most likely won’t work.  Hand-holding has a better chance. I wish it were different, but we have to meet people where they are, not where we think they should be. They want to feel safe with us, which they can’t do if we are yelling at them. Even if they deserve the yelling, it’s generally a waste of your emotional energy and will solve nothing.

I think that one of your goals for the year should be trying to gently coax him Out of the FOG. Your therapist probably has great suggestions for how to do this, but, in the end, he can only do it when he feels ready and safe.

And, yes, my NF is not only bitter and miserable, he is truly WEIRD. He  says and does bizarre, inappropriate, over-the-line things, and you never know what or when or in front of whom he will spring into his weirdness. Best if he just stays in that little room.

[Hilltop]

Liz I do think DH is deep in the fog and I doubt he will ever come out, he is highly enmeshed with MIL.  I think in part it is cultural that he is there to help his parents and I don't begrudge him that, I understand it is deeply instilled in him.  He started taking care of them when he was a teenager. I didn't mention how I felt about New Years Eve, there is no point, I came here to vent and now feel fine.  I don't think DH see's MIL's manipulations, he is deep in the fog about that however he definitely understands how obligated he feels.  He has made numerous comments that he is angry that his brother is NC and he is left to do everything. He openly says how tired and exhausted he is however I don't say too much, this is for him to deal with.  I have on a couple of occasions told him that he will wear himself out, that he will burn out and that he needs to put boundaries in place.  I leave it at that otherwise he gets defensive.  I do think he has listened as now he tends to go to visit only once or twice a week and when he gets tired of the lengthy chore list handed to him he just visits at night when it's too late to do much.  I think he has worked it out for now.

I think his parents got use to seeing him every day when FIL was in hospital and I did say to DH that they were going to have to get use to seeing him weekly again.  This seems to have calmed down and DH is now back to his regular visiting times. While FIL is alive I think things will remain relatively calm, I don't see them much and DH although tired is managing.  FIL did try to do something a while back and DH put him in his place so he can speak up when needed, it's just rare.  DH has on occasion gotten angry about FIL that he is so concerned with his brother being NC when its him that does everything for them, he feels unappreciated by FIL to a degree.

My concern is when FIL dies.  MIL will be all consuming, I have seen how needy she is now and DH has excuses for everything, he just cannot see how manipulative she is. I really think if we are ever going to divorce it will be then because MIL is 10 years younger than FIL and is really fit although she acts all weak.  DH has said he will need to go live with her for a while when FIL dies which isn't a problem for 6 months or so however I don't believe MIL will let him leave and then if he does come home I feel MIL will expect him there every 2nd day.  I dread it and because FIL has been quite sick over the past couple of years that time is approaching fast. 

I have also come to realise that it's unrealistic to expect DH to change now.  I don't think he will suddenly see the light.  I don't yell or cry about the in-laws.  I learned a long time ago that didn't work.   I don't talk about them a lot either though. MIL is just constant drama.  The other day she gave a dramatic update to one of FIL's medical appointments, she made it sound like one of his blood tests was unusual and ominous.  I told DH to relax that they have wanted that particular blood test the whole way through, that it was routine and in the end what was the update a couple of days later, blood test was routine it wasn't as she had said it was.  I do get irritated by her because DH's stress levels are so up and down when she does this, it is so unhealthy for him.  He gets panicked and rushes over there to see them and so she continues the same game.  I sometimes talk him down but sometimes I just listen, he is going to have to step back himself at some point. At some point he will either have to put in boundaries himself or exhaust himself until he is sick.  And MIL will eventually make him sick, she will push him and push him so its for that reason I don't push anything now.  I guess time will tell what happens, I may be surprised down the track however that's a small part of the reason for my healing work now as I am anticipating hard times ahead.

[BettyGray]

My concern is when FIL dies.  MIL will be all consuming,

Oooh, boy, do I get this!  My DH is the oldest of 2 boys and he does pretty much everything for them - most without being asked.  His younger brother, while not NC, has to be asked, over and over, to help in certain situations, then being angry about having to do anything.

I would say that your husband's attitude and resentment towards his brother's NC sounds like a bit of jealousy. In some part, he must realize how toxic his parents are,  but accepts his role as caretaker/golden child.

My husband is stuck in a cycle he just can't break. He is a thoughtful and kind person, and he enjoys/is good at helping others. So he feels good when he helps, but then it exhausts him, he starts to resent the role he has accepted. He wears himself out (I too, worry that his neglect of his own well-being will catch up to him. If it does, I will blame the demanding parents).

But it is always the cycle of: so something nice, then they get used to being able to ask -whatever- of him, start feeling entitled to it, then abuse and exploit the kindness and sense of duty he has to them. By then he has neglected himself (and me) to the point of misery, so then, he is depressed and bitter.  There's very little left of him to contribute what he should emotionally, to the marriage.

How long have you been married?  I know for me, it got better in time. Baby steps. It's so sad they can't see what is bad and unhealthy for them. I think they believe they deserve to feel taken advantage of, or have no choice. It's heartbreaking that he thinks their "wants" are more important than his needs. Is this your husband's pattern with them?

[Hilltop]

Liz yes DH is definitely stuck in caretaker/GC role just like your DH.  We have been married 17 years and the beginning was really rough, in fact I sometimes can't believe we didn't divorce.  Like you say during this time "their wants" were everything.  Things calmed down 5 years into the marriage when I took a massive step back and we've been coasting along ok since then. They stayed in their corner, I stayed in mine, well they stayed in their corner because I refused to let them get close into my corner.  I get upset over certain things but it's mostly ok.  Due to their behaviour in the beginning I have not trusted MIL again, nor have I ever warmed to her.  If I never had to see her again I would be happy.

A couple of years ago FIL started having serious health complaints and spent a fair bit of time in hospital and his health continues to deteriorate.   Its now that I am getting a glimpse of what life will be like when FIL dies.  DH is in the same cycle your DH is in.  I do think he acknowledges their demands but doesn't believe he can put boundaries into place.  He can't be honest with them, his boundaries are passive aggressive like his mother.  He won't say he is tired or run down and can't do it this week, he will just turn up late so it's too late to do anything.  It works for them.

DH has said it is his duty to care for them, he has done it since he was a teenager, they leaned on him heavily as they were immigrants.  Now FIL is incapable of physically doing things around the house but he is demanding, he wants things done now and has little to no patience.  On top of that DH is dealing with MIL's emotional state, she has been hysterical at times and leans heavily on DH for support and comfort on an emotional level.  Their other son and his family are all NC with them. FIL refuses to leave the house to go see friends, has refused for years, MIL also gave away her friendships. MIL cannot calm herself down and rings up in a panic, panic's DH with her drama and he is on a rollercoaster ride of emotional ups and downs.  MIL and DH even got in a screaming match a while back because she was hysterical about hating her life, she wouldn't calm down and eventually DH had to yell at her to stop. This is not usual for them though but shows how wound up they are. He has even taken up drinking more some days to relax which worries me.  So I am not putting any demands at all on him because he is already stressed and stretched.

So that is why I am worried about FIL passing.  I see what's coming and it will be harder than when we were first married.  I am questioning DH a bit more now and putting the information together for him.  Because MIL just rings up in a panic I find she gives a bit of information and it sounds really bad but if I question DH more I am able to get him to remember other stuff which shows that everything is ok, like with the blood test, it was a routine one FIL always has but MIL rang up saying his kidneys were failing.  With a couple of questions DH was able to see that MIL had just misunderstood, the blood test is just to see where his kidneys are at, they do them all the time, I don't think it takes away all his stress but helps.  I am trying to get him out of the house to do relaxing activities etc.

Ultimately he is going to have to work through this himself.  This is just the start, they will only get worse as they age.  I feel like DH feels he has no choice. I think he would be ok doing the chores for them but it's the emotional up and down that is really taking it's toll.  I do say to him from time to time that other people's emotions' are theirs to deal with, I try to plant little seeds.  I suppose we'll see where things go. 

In a way I sense MIL knows that this time is hers.  In the beginning, those early married years she was highly competitive like she was insecure she was going to be left behind or forgotten, she was vicious and unkind.  She was angry, she lied, she pitted us against each other.  As I said it took us 5 years to take her out of the middle and to turn toward each other. This is different, she doesn't have to fight for this, she knows their age and vulnerability will give her anything so she uses that weakness, the tears to get what she wants.  It's like she doesn't even notice that DH may be stressed or tired.  She doesn't appear to care if time is taken from his marriage, the only thing that matters is that her chores are done and she has his ear.  Her level of selfishness is only increasing each year. So in a way I know unless DH chooses himself to put boundaries in place, she will get all that time and attention to the detriment of everything else.  I am trying to now think of things I can do in the meantime, other avenues I can involve myself in and then come back together later.  I have not been around them for all these years I don't plan on starting now.

[Hilltop]

Liz in short I wanted to add that moving forward I see that DH is in the middle with competing needs all around him however I am choosing to remove myself from this triangle, not in a victim way but I plan on stating my needs and wants calmly and then he can choose how he wants to move forward.   For eg. if he chooses not to travel as he has already said he can no longer travel now that they are older, I can state my desires to travel and leave it with him.  If he down the track after COVID refuses to travel I am already looking at solo trips with women groups and I have single friends who are keen to travel.  I am not going to sit at home, I am looking at getting on with my life.  Life shouldn't stop because they are aging.  Even if they are fine DH has said he isn't comfortable travelling anymore just in case something happens while we are gone.  I am not going to fight him on this besides there are some places I would love to see that he isn't interested in so I see the silver lining in some of that.

I am not going to care take him, I am not going to try to make him see the light.  He is an adult.  I can only state my needs and wants and then he can choose what he wants to do.  I know its incredibly painful when a husband chooses his mother over a wife's needs, continuously, I've been there.  DH can choose and what will be, will be.  I don't mean this in a negative victim way, I just gave up so much early in the marriage, I lost part of myself if that makes sense, I feel like some of my energy was sapped and it never came back.  At this point I don't want to fight for it or anything, if MIL swoops in and takes more and more time well it worries me but no more fighting.  I am going to resign to the situation and let it be.  DH is old enough to do what he feels is the most important thing and if that is his mother then he will do that, our marriage may not survive that but a lot of marriages don't survive.  I also think that perhaps I will live independently and do my own thing and may love that, perhaps DH will surprise me.  The one thing I am sure of is I am not going to be dragged down her miserable hole where it's all doom and gloom, if DH wants to go there that's on him but I refuse to be drawn into her dramatics.  I have removed myself from this triangle with them.  I do point out alternatives but if it's that instilled and ingrained in him and those guilt triggers are that huge at some point he will have to make this decision for himself.

Besides I learned the hard way when DH would get angry with me for his mother being angry and upset, I was blamed for the upheaval and the upset.  Now that I am removed they are left staring at each other, I am removed from having anything to do with their emotions, any unravelling is left with them. I have found this works better with DH and he is able to now express his frustration about his mother more rather than piling it on me.  Dh has to acknowledge that it is all her and her emotions, there is no one else to blame.

[Poison Ivy]

Hilltop, I similarly removed myself from the triangle of my then husband, his father, and me. We did end up getting divorced, but it wasn't because I removed myself from the triangle; it was because my husband and his dad didn't change their behavior after I removed myself. That is, the things that were bad got worse. But at least I was for the most part not directly engaged in the conflicts.

[Hilltop]

Sorry Poison Ivy, that it didn't work out.  I'm hoping you found some calmness after all that. 

[BettyGray]

Hilltop,

It sounds like you are in a good place with all of this for now. It seems like you have decided to just take care of yourself. I basically have done the same thing for the last few years. I just don't get as upset as I used to, I guess because he's gotten a little better at keeping her in her place.

But she still treats him like a shrink, triangulates by complaining about how his brother treats her, etc. We keep telling her, over and over, go to a therapist. She went after he second divorce, and it seemed to go well for her. She even joined a support group and made friends that way. To be fair, her ex was pretty awful to her. They had just bought their dream home. She loved that place so much, had just finished decorating it, and then he announced he had found someone else and kicked MIL out. This after she gave him a kidney in order to save his life. I mean, you can't help but feel a little sorry for her. Two husbands cheated on her, left her for other women...luckily she found a very kind, patient, man for #3 but he passed away a few years ago. He used to keep her in check and she stayed out of our hair. When he was gone, she was full-on victim, helpless mode.

DH's father has been seriously ill this year and has been through chemo, radiation, and immunotherapy. DH takes him to all of the Dr. appointments, tests, takes care of his cat, grocery shopping. His brother helps, but his daughter has a rare disease that requires its own demands.

All through this lockdown, I have spent tons of time alone. Even when DH is here he is exhausted and grumpy, which, who could fault him? But its created its own tension, and I learned that I am pretty much ok on my own. It gets lonely, but I think I've gotten stronger and even more independent. It's made it easier for me to not get upset over things I can't control, and to just ignore him when he's being a party pooper. If he wants to vent, fine, I let him. But I've made it clear that I'm not going to absorb his bad energy. It's tough, when in lockdown.

Another absolutely infuriating flea is the inability to admit fault in the moment. Its not that he never apologizes after upsetting me, it's that it always comes later, after the damage is done. No matter how gently I state how he has hurt me, he has this really annoying pattern of getting super defensive, and fighting back. I could be bawling on the floor, begging him to acknowledge my pain.  He always feels accused. His first reaction to strong emotions is anger, because most of the time he is super stoic. I have learned that once he's in defense mode, nothing will get through to him. It caused me a great deal of pain over the years. Then I realized where this came from. Both parents, when faced with some sort of crisis, immediately get angry and lash out. They offer no comfort to someone who, in the moment, desperately needs it. And then later, after they have calmed down, they apologize. Especially if boundaries are drawn and they get a little "time out." Love bombing can follow. The pattern is now crystal clear to me.

Seeing the pattern has made it a little bit easier to not take any of it personally. I have learned, not by choice, that the only person who can make me feel safe when I'm triggered, is me. Sad. It is heartbreaking that he is triggered by my pain, and insists on defending himself in the moment rather than acknowledging wrongdoing. But his behavior defies logic, and he is an extremely logical, left-brained person, except when it comes to intense emotions. Raised by two emotional children who gave terrible examples of parental comfort (hard to do when the child is the parent), he can't seem to break out of the cycle of mimicking their awful behavior. His brother is even worse. He gets scary angry and lashes out, saying such mean things to whomever is in his path. And then later.....the simpering apology, kindness, realization he may have screwed up. But the root issue of the anger has never been addressed, so it persists. I feel sorry for his kids and wife. I think she is afraid to stand up to him, and tries to act like things are fine. In contrast, DH turns his anger inward. So that it builds up and he can no longer retain it. Yay, me...

Over the last several years, and even more during lockdown and head-clearing solitude, I've gotten to the point (except on really bad days when I'm depressed/having hormonal upheaval) where I can spot he's triggered. I know moving forward, hoping he'll finally listen to my observations, please, etc., is pointless. So I shut down the conversation before I have to go through the pathetic cycle of anger, gaslighting, denial and shifting the blame onto me. If he starts in, I say "I refuse to let this escalate. If you want to talk when you're calm, I'm happy to." Or I just leave and go for a walk, leaving him to stew in his own emotions.

The funny thing is that after all of this calms down and I kind of just go on with things, giving no oxygen to his pattern of demeaning nonsense, he is super timid and childlike towards me. Like he knows he did something wrong and maybe I stopped loving him. He is profusely deferential and kind. I'm thinking that when he was a child and showed strong emotions, they were probably either angry or cold toward him, so he learned just to not show any emotions. Self-protection above all else. And projecting strength, while being completely emotionally scared and weak. So sad. Plus, the men in his family were super "masculine." Stiff upper lip and all. After 25 years, I have only seen him cry once, writing and giving his best friend's eulogy. I wonder if he will cry when either parent dies.

I hate playing games, but if I just don't react, 'I retain the power. I don't 'silent treatment' him or anything, but I don't go out of my way to show extra affection either. He usually comes around, tells me he's sorry for lashing out, and seems genuinely determined to show me how sorry he is.

We fight very little these days. I stopped expecting him to give me emotional support in the midst of an intense environment. We are also able to resolve things quickly, without yelling, most of the time. When we do fight, I have almost gotten so used to the same response, that I try to inject humor into it. Like, "Oh...I've seen this (tv) episode before. This is the one where you deny responsibility, defend yourself and show me no comfort. It's getting boring. I'm switching the channel." Trying to convince him year after year, fight after fight, that he is hurtful when this pattern ensues, became pointless.

The most repetitive part is one he just cannot or will not understand, is that these fights are rooted in bigger issues. I try to use the discussions to tell him we keep fighting because the macro-problems are not getting resolved (no doubt deeply embedded childhood issues with these flea-parents). I try to tell him that we both get triggered because of this. He insists that the big issues have nothing to do with it, that it all escalated because of the events that transpired right before the fight. Then he goes into an annoying "instant replay mode," detailing every single action, word, and breath that led up to it. Like he is trying to argue his case so he can point to the exact moment when I got upset and convince me it was my fault for doing so. I've given up. I've mentioned to him that he does this, but to no avail. I just write it off to his inability to see how FOGGED he is about  his own behavior. He's protecting that child in him instead of me, which hurts. But until he recognizes that, it won't change.