When did you know that they had a pd?

[ShyTurtle]

I'm curious to know from others in this community when they first knew their partner had a pd - especially if they didn't tell you or didn't have a diagnosis yet. What was your first clue?

[SparkStillLit]

Updh never said nor has a diagnosis, and is violently opposed to seeking any kind of help for himself.
At one point, maybe about 15 years ago, things for me got to an awful place. His treatment of me was...unreal. His favorite ploy, still is, is to withdraw all attention and affection and to silent treat. He likes to illustrate it, too, by paying EXTRA attention to everyone and every creature around.

He belittled, he stonewalled, he would upset me then stop speaking all together and call me "crazy", he isolated himself....here is the most pointed thing, I think, that I wrote in a journal. I said that I felt like a piece of sporting equipment that he lost interest in and chucked in a closet. Maybe to be taken out from time to time if he perhaps felt like a round of golf or something. But I wasn't to speak or have needs or intrude on him in any way. Doing so was irritating and frustrating to him, why wouldn't I just shut up and stay in the closet?????? The other thing I wrote was that he had more medical issues than any well person I ever met in my life!!!

I sought help for myself, both in person and online, and for the first time I discovered PDs and that *it's not my fault*. It never was and it never will be. I discovered the 3 C's. I started practicing boundaries and all sorts of things, msybe even radical acceptance. I don't know if it was that or a years-long hoover, but things got so much smoother for a very long time.
Now...I wish I had left back then. Devolution big time. I know what I'm dealing with now, I'm in therapy, I'm suddenly on antidepressants, and I'm trying to practice my stuff, but it's almost like....I don't have it in me?
Sorry. I don't mean to fly off the handle. You asked a specific question, ShyTurtle, and I've answered. I don't mean to go off on a rant like a PD myself. Apologies.

[blunk]

My bpdxh had a diagnosis long before he met me, in fact before it was even called bpd. It was previously called EDD Emotional Dysregulation Disorder, which in some ways is even more fitting. He just neglected to share that bit of information for nearly the entire 20 years I knew him. As I would find out, there were a lot of things that he never bothered to share.

I think my first clue, though I didn't know the terminology at the time, was splitting. Either I was his favorite person in the world, or I was the enemy...sometimes in the course of the same conversation. I remember saying several times, you always think the worst of me. If there are 2 reasons why I did something, you always assume that it is the worse of the 2. If I was late getting home from work he didn't think that, hey there was traffic...of course it was that I was out cheating on him. If I didn't get something he wanted at the grocery store, I didn't just forget to bring the list (that was still on the counter)...I did it because I hated him.

The other thing that always stood out to me was that his anger was frequently out of proportion to the situation at hand. Something that most people would consider a minor annoyance would send him into a full-blown rage. I remember him screaming at someone in line ahead of us in the grocery store, because the line had moved and they weren't paying attention.

There were definitely other clues and certainly plenty of red flags, but these were the ones that I saw repeated.

[Matteblak]

As with many others, my wife does not have a diagnosis (because everyone else in the world has a problem, not her), however, I've wondered for a LONG time. we had been in counseling with our pastor for several years, eventually had to leave our church because I refused to rebuke a Sunday school teacher for not bringing her a meal when she was home sick.

So my story: Fast forward 2 years, she had a hip replacement and was in severe pain but had exhausted the (narcotic) pain medicine that had been prescribed. We called the night doctor who said he could not prescribe narcotics and we would need to talk with her doctor in the morning. She could have taken OTC meds, but we had some leftover medication that was a couple years old (also narcotics). I told her we needed to wait until the morning as the doctor had said. She became violent and threatened me (this is about midnight). I called her parents to ask for help in calming her down and to encourage her to follow the instructions of the doctor we had just spoken with. They told me they "knew what I was doing and that my dark psychology would not work on them." At that moment I realized that I was crazy.

They started saying things that made no sense to me about things I had done to her, like there was an entire decade of conversations that I had missed or that there was a running joke that I was not a part of. I started counseling about 8 weeks later, fearful that there was something wrong with me (a good sign, or so I'm told), and she came with me about 2 months later (mostly because I wouldn't tell her what we discussed). My counselor quickly helped me to see that, while I have some issues with how I deal with her PD, I was not crazy.

There is still not a diagnosis, but about 3 weeks after the conversation with the in-laws, I found Dr. Ramani's videos, and watched my life and hers being played out in intricate detail on YouTube. Maybe the specifics of my amateur diagnosis is wrong, but it ain't wrong by much. Hope this helps.

[ShyTurtle]

... I wrote in a journal. I said that I felt like a piece of sporting equipment that he lost interest in and chucked in a closet. Maybe to be taken out from time to time if he perhaps felt like a round of golf or something. But I wasn't to speak or have needs or intrude on him in any way. Doing so was irritating and frustrating to him, why wouldn't I just shut up and stay in the closet??????

I can relate to this experience so much! And the initial hot/cold treatment too. Thanks so much for sharing! What stage was your relationship at when you started noticing things? Were you married yet?

[1footouttadefog]

I suspected along time ago.  Then about 16 years ago there was a chain of changes.   There were also alot of heavy hitter life events one after another I tried to believe and did for the most part believe that it was the stress of these difficult transitions and we would see things get better around the next corner.

I busted my tail making stuff haooen for us. I got a house that had been neglected  ready for sale, I got us moved. All while having two little ones and an eldely person to care for.  We lived in a substandard apt. While having abhouse built and that was a dissaster on soany fronts.

Finally we were in the new albiet somewhat disappointing new place, and things should have started resolving amd they did not.

I started at some point reading about things online and came upon the idea of pds.  I eventually made my way to this site.

In the mean time my pdh was diagnosed with several things but the idea of a pd is only mentioned in visit notes not in the diagnosis. 

I know for sure what I am dealing with whether the docs do or not.  The name does not matter.

In the time since i realized i have seen medications help with many aspects of his mental health.  The pd stuff remains.

[ShyTurtle]

I think my first clue, though I didn't know the terminology at the time, was splitting.
[...]
The other thing that always stood out to me was that his anger was frequently out of proportion to the situation at hand.
[...]
There were definitely other clues and certainly plenty of red flags, but these were the ones that I saw repeated.

Thanks so much for sharing these! What stage would you say that your relationship was at when you first noticed these things?

For example, with my pdx, I noticed the splitting started after we moved in together (but like you, I didn't have a word for it at the time!)

[ShyTurtle]

I called her parents to ask for help in calming her down and to encourage her to follow the instructions of the doctor we had just spoken with. They told me they "knew what I was doing and that my dark psychology would not work on them." At that moment I realized that I was crazy.

!I'm so glad that you now realize that you are not crazy
?So your marriage was already well established when this happened

[SparkStillLit]

ShyTurtle, the discard began after the first year of marriage. Into the second year was when I wrote that. The seriously bad stuff happened about 8 ish years in. Now I'm 25 years in.

[losingmyself]

My H is undiagnosed. I don't know if I could ever bring it up to him.
A long time ago, when my kids lived with us and he was mean to them and I couldn't get him to stop. Just about the time I should have told him it wasn't going to work out and he should leave.
I tried every conceivable way to get him to understand what he was doing to us. Crying, pleading, yelling, explaining calmly, to no avail. The conversations always turned circular, with him explaining to me how terrible I was. At everything. One time he told me I was a bad driver. In a conversation about discipline.  After I finally gave up and got myself out of the 'conversation' (if you want to call it that) I always thought to myself that there was something wrong with him, and the way he thinks.
My sister told me to look up BPD because she thought another one of my sisters has it.  I almost cried when I read about BPD, and the astounding similarities in even the very words he says.
Then I found this amazing place..
So, I guess I've always known there was something. I just didn't know what to call it, and I thought I was alone. I listen to Dr Ramini also, and I think he fits into covert narcissism. I have much left to learn, but I've learned how to deal with him, mostly.

[ShyTurtle]

I suspected along time ago.  Then about 16 years ago there was a chain of changes.   There were also alot of heavy hitter life events one after another

Thanks for sharing! When you're with a person with a pd, those challenging life circumstances bring out the worst in them, don't they? My pdxh was definitely at his worst during our challenging times together.

[ShyTurtle]

The conversations always turned circular, with him explaining to me how terrible I was. At everything. One time he told me I was a bad driver. In a conversation about discipline.  After I finally gave up and got myself out of the 'conversation' (if you want to call it that) I always thought to myself that there was something wrong with him, and the way he thinks.
[...]
I listen to Dr Ramini also, and I think he fits into covert narcissism. I have much left to learn, but I've learned how to deal with him, mostly.

The circular conversations telling me how terrible I was and the bad driver comment were my experience with my npd/bpd ex too. And Dr. Ramani is awesome! So you started to realize his pd much further on in the marriage when you already had children?

[ShyTurtle]

ShyTurtle, the discard began after the first year of marriage. Into the second year was when I wrote that. The seriously bad stuff happened about 8 ish years in. Now I'm 25 years in.

Wow. I'm so sorry that you've gone through this for so many years! Is he getting any easier to deal with with age?

[losingmyself]

ShyTurtle, no, I started to get red flags almost immediately. The kids are mine from a previous marriage. I was so far into the FOG that I couldn't even protect my kids from his bullying. It's something that I don't know if I'll ever forgive myself for. I know I have to, but it's a looooong ways away.
I also listen to Kris Godinez, she's big on insisting that we forgive ourselves. I figure if I listen to her say that enough times, maybe I'll believe it!
I also noticed the over-the-top jealousy right away. I don't know if he has gotten better, or if I just don't care any more...

[1footouttadefog]

The dark psychology reminds me of an event where I realized that my spouse had been lying about me to people he wanted attention from, for narc supply.

One was his psychiatrist.  I only met him a 7-8 times over the years and half of them were for a few minutes in the lobby

It was after a realky bad and relationship destroying  manic episode that  I went to the office visit.  Tue doc was off the charts wierd ajd angry that I was there.  He stopped his feet from the lobby to his office muttering he did not want to habe to hear all this.

I sat in the office and was angry bit in a cool quiet angry tone, I respect your feelings bit I will ask my question then leave after you respond.

He stared and said okay...

I then asked : you are retiring today, and I was wondering of we should seek a private practice doc, Will there be a series of temporary docs here or will they reolace you with a permanent, and what can be done to insure more dynamic care in the event if another manic period like this. I feel had meds been adjusted months ago when I called to get him in we may have avoided a lot of very negative consequences.

He deflated somewhat, then said, well continuity of care is a very important concern at this point and proceeded to tell me about a portal and such to have email contact etc.

This doc threw a temper tantrum about me being there an hour before he retired as we were the last visit his last day.  He obviously has his own issues, but I can only imagine what my spouse had said to fuel his expectations of what he might hear.

Dark psychology indeed.  I can only wonder about friendships where I was suddenly dropped over the years after my spouse sought supply from my friends.  I can only wonder what his relatives were told. 

So glad its all getting blurry in the rear view.

[SeaBreeze]

I noticed red flags from uNPDh very early on, but I downplayed them because 1.) He was abused as a child so 2) I thought he just needed to be loved by someone who understood his "quirks" (someone like, you know, co-dependant me). Plus 3) He mirrored me (didn't realize it yet) and made himself out to be the total, perfect opposite of the very overt, cocky uNPD ex-H that I had just left. And 4) I was groomed for all this by my uNPD mother.

I never thought any of these PDs in my life acted normal, mind you, but it took years of research to finally grasp just how ABNORMAL their behavior was and is.

Though I'll say the first red flag from uNPDh that actually surprised me and set the tone for the next few years of FOG...was when he raged at me the first time, about 2 months in after the idealization/seduction/swept me off my feet stage. I was giving him directions while he was driving, and he missed the turn. He slammed the brakes, screamed at me, his face turning red. Almost an exact replay of an incident with my mother when I was a teen. I reacted the exact same way: replied super calmly, in quiet shock, to calm the PD down and eventually took the blame. Blech, wish I could go back to that day 22 years ago and tell him to pull over and let me out so I could have walked away and literally never looked back.

About 7 years in, I finally realized I was being emotionally abused. It took another 7 years after that (so 14 in) to understand he abuses because he's a Narc. Finally found Out of the FOG about 4 years ago, lurked for 2 yrs before finally posting.

[Matteblak]

I called her parents to ask for help in calming her down and to encourage her to follow the instructions of the doctor we had just spoken with. They told me they "knew what I was doing and that my dark psychology would not work on them." At that moment I realized that I was crazy.

!I'm so glad that you now realize that you are not crazy
?So your marriage was already well established when this happened

Yes, we had been married almost 15 years at the time (the event was December 2019).

[Matteblak]

Now...I wish I had left back then. Devolution big time. I know what I'm dealing with now, I'm in therapy, I'm suddenly on antidepressants, and I'm trying to practice my stuff, but it's almost like....I don't have it in me?
Sorry. I don't mean to fly off the handle. You asked a specific question, ShyTurtle, and I've answered. I don't mean to go off on a rant like a PD myself. Apologies.

No need to apologize, I think many of us still feel guilty for expressing a feeling. I am darn near incapable of it, frankly. I hesitate, feel guilty, like I'm a burden. I'm realizing that their behavior is in many ways effortless for them because it is what they naturally do, our responses must be so intentional and deliberate that it is exhausting. Thank you SparkStillLit for all you do to support and encourage so many of us.

[blunk]

I think my first clue, though I didn't know the terminology at the time, was splitting.
[...]
The other thing that always stood out to me was that his anger was frequently out of proportion to the situation at hand.
[...]
There were definitely other clues and certainly plenty of red flags, but these were the ones that I saw repeated.

Thanks so much for sharing these! What stage would you say that your relationship was at when you first noticed these things?

For example, with my pdx, I noticed the splitting started after we moved in together (but like you, I didn't have a word for it at the time!)

I didn't see these behaviors until after we were married, but there were other red flags even before that. But I was young and inexperienced when we met, so I ignored a lot...his first wife left him...but she was every terrible thing in the book, he changed jobs constantly though it was always someone else's fault, he spent money on frivolous things...a new hobby about once a month and after a while he started using my credit card without my knowledge, he was outright rude to people for no reason although there was always an excuse.

I started to see the anger a couple of years into the marriage, but in the beginning his outbursts were few and far between. As time went on, it became more frequent, until it was daily and sometimes for days on end. At one point he said something like...you should just accept that anger will always be my first response, but if you wait a while we can talk about whatever it is. The splitting I started to see about 5 years into the marriage, though that also got progressively worse. He didn't disclose his diagnosis until I threatened to leave, which was about 2 years before I ended the marriage. In the interim I read everything that I could find on bpd, and finally found this website.

At one point he told me that he never should have said anything about his diagnosis, because I now blamed everything on bpd. I tried to explain that I was not blaming it, but that knowing what the issue was finally made a lot of things make sense. The more I put together, the more I saw just how unacceptable his treatment of me was. It was affecting me mentally and physically...I was depressed, had headaches, chronic heartburn, muscle tension, and had even start to twitch anytime I had to be in the same room as he was. I could no longer live that way.

[losingmyself]

 
I can't agree more. I value your input so much!
I also have that voice in me, when I say something "That was stupid. Why did you say that? Nobody wants to hear what you have to say. Just shut up" It happens every single day.
H's new favorite line when I say something is "Didn't ask..."