Good news and now what?

[spha6092]

After many months of me confronting the problem of my in-laws plus a lot of therapy the past 6 months, my DH finally stood up to his mother!!! For himself. For me. For us. First time in 12 years of us, 42 years of him.

Never thought I'd see the day. I was despairing again and back to telling him that I really couldn't cope with the marriage anymore because of the enmeshment. But he finally came through. He finally got it and even said clearly the other day, "my Mother is a narcissist".

On Monday he had lunch with my MIL and I wasn't there but I totally believe him that he was "like Terminator 2" ad he described it, haha. He was assertive and strong and dispassionate, challenged everything and didn't let her get away with it. He challenged her delusions.

He basically said an apology would be good but at any rate it was on her to make amends. During lunch she said she thought I had been mean and snippy which is totally untrue of course and she said he was cruel etc - also totally untrue.

So she's sent me a brief email asking if we can have a lunch and there's a random and insincere apology stuck in the middle "I apologise for any hurt I have caused you". That's it. She doesn't get what she's done but she knows she's about to lose.

For the sake of my DH I will see her but I'm busy so I'm going to suggest 6 weeks from now. Also she has to travel close to where we live.

But then what? I don't trust her now. I really don't want to have a relationship with her as she's 70 and so deeply disordered I can't believe it took me so long to work out. I'm the first person who has ever had the guts to call bullshit on her.

I know she desperately wants to see my daughter who's almost 4. But I don't trust her unsupervised now after what happened last time while my husband wasn't paying attention.

I'm not really sure what my demands are. Would love to hear if anyone has been in a similar situation!!

[Boat Babe]

Hi spha. Perhaps give yourself some time. You don't need to get back to her immediately and you need time to process this. Also, given that your DH is now coming Out of the FOG it needs to be a carefully considered joint decision. I think you need to consider what your boundaries and deal breakers are if you decide to continue contact. This will take time and you will both need to be coming from a place of strength in order to deal with her.
This is a great place to discuss the practicalities of limited contact with NO damage to you or your family.
In the meantime, maybe thank her for her email using MC and say that you need some time and will be contacting her later, when YOU are feeling better.
NB. She will probably go ape so be ready!

[Call Me Cordelia]

I read your previous posts and WOW our stories have a lot in common. The non-apology coming only after DH forced her hand, realizing only after years that MIL had a lot in common with my own abusive father. A lot of parallels. We've even been married 12 years. Anyway, I agree with Boat Babe! Her suggestion is a classy way to acknowledge and still give yourself all the options. You both already agreed that space was a good thing, so it's perfectly reasonable to take the space you need. Maybe six weeks out is enough, but no good reason to put any pressure on yourself. This mess is 12+ years in the making between you. It's not going to be fixed with a lunch and a half-assed apology. Her response will be instructive.

My own MIL sent a similar email after several months NC asking me to open up to her, make it right, blah blah blah. I took a couple of days before deciding whether or how to respond. She couldn't wait for me to give her the ok and just started bombing me with tons of photos and lengthy "updates". That told me what I needed to know. The urge to respond immediately was programmed into us, but it's ok to ignore that urge and proceed with your own best interest first. And sometimes your own interest is to stay far away from poisonous people.

[spha6092]

Hi spha. Perhaps give yourself some time. You don't need to get back to her immediately and you need time to process this. Also, given that your DH is now coming Out of the FOG it needs to be a carefully considered joint decision. I think you need to consider what your boundaries and deal breakers are if you decide to continue contact. This will take time and you will both need to be coming from a place of strength in order to deal with her.
This is a great place to discuss the practicalities of limited contact with NO damage to you or your family.
In the meantime, maybe thank her for her email using MC and say that you need some time and will be contacting her later, when YOU are feeling better.
NB. She will probably go ape so be ready!

Thanks so much for the brilliant advice Boat Babe, I'll take it. I did say to DH yesterday that I really was in no rush and that her timetable is not mine. His family have major problems with just sitting with discomfort and ambiguity, obviously, and part of the journey is about training them all out of being so reactive. But that includes me as well in relation to my in-laws.

Yes I am fully expecting her to go ape!! I am sure she is seething with anger right now. DH told me that her mask slipped a bunch of times during their lunch and he saw lots of flashes of anger, which she is normally so good at hiding. But for the first time she really felt put in her place, that my DH meant business, that her reign of terror was over.

So yes we do need to present a strong front and work through this together, work out how limited contact will work. I do read a lot on here as well as Quora about strategies, and will keep going. Thanks again for your super helpful advice

[spha6092]

I read your previous posts and WOW our stories have a lot in common. The non-apology coming only after DH forced her hand, realizing only after years that MIL had a lot in common with my own abusive father. A lot of parallels. We've even been married 12 years. Anyway, I agree with Boat Babe! Her suggestion is a classy way to acknowledge and still give yourself all the options. You both already agreed that space was a good thing, so it's perfectly reasonable to take the space you need. Maybe six weeks out is enough, but no good reason to put any pressure on yourself. This mess is 12+ years in the making between you. It's not going to be fixed with a lunch and a half-assed apology. Her response will be instructive.

My own MIL sent a similar email after several months NC asking me to open up to her, make it right, blah blah blah. I took a couple of days before deciding whether or how to respond. She couldn't wait for me to give her the ok and just started bombing me with tons of photos and lengthy "updates". That told me what I needed to know. The urge to respond immediately was programmed into us, but it's ok to ignore that urge and proceed with your own best interest first. And sometimes your own interest is to stay far away from poisonous people.

Thanks Call Me Cordelia, it's good to hear you get where I'm coming from. Ugh, yes I relate - she's all about talking about herself, even though a lot of it is false (which I have long known but can't say anything).

I'll definitely take the approach suggested by Boat Babe and yes MIL's response will be instructive. This week both DH and I reread the original email I sent her in August and it was such a heartfelt, compassionate and assertive email, that any normal person would have reacted with real contrition. Whereas in the lunch she said my email had been "toxic"!

Yes, in the past I would always cut her slack and see the best in her - even though over the years there have been many times where I simply couldn't handle her phoniness and neediness. But now, there's simply no way I'm going to adopt the same attitude. She'll need to understand she's lucky that I'm even willing to talk to her at all given everything.

It definitely is in my interest to stay away. But my DH wants to have a relationship with his mother, which I do get. So we have to find a way to manage low contact. The fact is, I actually do have a relationship with my own parents, which is hard but manageable. They're not ultimately as demanding as DH's family though. But going forward we'll be careful with both sides.

Thanks so much for your comment and for sharing as well

[BettyGray]

Boat Babe,

This is HUGE! Better late than never! Took me over 20 years to get my DH to come around, but I will take it.   One thing I have found in s important- praise him, praise him, praise him.

Hopefully he had his own catharsis from this confrontation, but it never hurts to tell him how proud you are and how much it means to you. I also think that the first confrontation is the scariest. The more often he puts her in her place, the more natural it will become.

Don't be surprised or disappointed, though, if he relapses from time to time.  There is a delicate dance between the two of them. My MIL misbehaves, gets yelled at by DH, he stops calling her for a few days or a week, let's her "think about what she has done" (I know, like a child, right?), feel terrible about it, worry she has gone too far and may lose him, and it lets him cool down and get the upper hand.!

The cycle is always the same.

1. She has an unreasonable or irrational  request/tantrum, dumps her anxiety on him, upsets me.

2. He ignores her, she retreats.

3. He contacts her again, she apologizes, and lays low for awhile, seemingly respecting his/our wishes and boundaries. Love bombs with gifts or money. "See? I am not so bad!"  Little by little, she will push those boundaries down again. So covertly that it  often goes unnoticed until it's too late. We've been sucked in again.

4. Rinse, repeat. She just can't help herself. Even if  deep down she knows she shouldn't, in the moment, she thinks it's ok to behave this way.

I will never forget the day he first  stood up for me against her. She had said and done some truly awful things to him, which had upset me to the point of hyperventilating. When she tried to dig her nails in deeper, he raised his voice with her in a way I had NEVER heard him do.

He told her how much she had upset me, and if she EVER did it again, she would be seeing him on holidays only. And "if you EVER, EVER think I am going to choose YOU over Liz, then you're dead wrong."

I think this really shocked her. He let her fret over it for weeks. I think that is her ultimate fear - that she will push things just a little to far someday and lose him forever. Not that it quells her bad behavior, but that fear is still there and mostly keeps her in line.

To be clear, you do not owe her a relationship she doesn't deserve. Take yourself out of the line of fire and leave it to him to build his boundary/confrontation muscle. Hopefully she won't be one of those meanies who just won't die. Not sure why the mean ones live so long, but they do.

Blaming you is her go to for masking her shame. She knows what she does is wrong, and probably feels deep shame about it. Lying to herself and scapegoating you (the easy target) keeps her fantasy true. Reality is their worst nightmare.

Beware of love bombing with lunches, gifts, etc. she is most likely very angry that DH had the nerve to tell her off.  Her way of dealing with that anger may be warped. On the one hand, the gesture to "make things right" at lunch is an olive branch, but that may be an illusion - a way for her to say "see? I tried"

If you go to lunch, do not allow her to pay. Go dutch if you can. If not, pay the bill in advance of the check being brought to the table. This will knock her off her footing to do any "generous"  footing the bill, and will take away her power. After all, it's paid for. Maybe let her leave the tip. And whoat kind of jerk would complain about being treated to lunch?!

Another thing, my exSMIL and sometimes MIL would always say the most underhanded, thoughtless, provocative things to me when I was alone with her. She waited until there was no one else around and then would spring them on me, often leaving me speechless. I would think of a comeback hours later, but it was too late. She had put on such a good act to everyone else that they had a hard time believing she would say such things to me. With no proof, I looked like the crazy one, which is exactly what she wanted. Insidious.

I reference Game of Thrones often on these forums, but when dealing with PDs, it's not that far-fetched to equate their actions with the conniving machinations of the show's villains.  Always an angle. Backstabbing, grasping for power, chasing drama and causing chaos all while gleefully watching their manipulations destroy others' lives.

It's terrible and cynical we have to think about people this way. But we do. They do and say things they know will cause problems. They can try to come between us and our spouses. They use covert and overt tactics. Make no mistake, this woman sounds like she preys on others' vulnerabilities. Think: "What would Cersei do?" (for those who haven't seen GOT, she is the most evil villain). If you come up with something that is even close to what your MIL does, STAY AWAY!!!

[bloomie]

spha6092 - this sounds like a big breakthrough and step forward for you and your DH! It is important for you both to sit with this moment in time when you found unity of purpose and agreement around how to best handle a very difficult person who has brought harm to your lives. 

It took a very long time for this moment to come in my own marriage and I would caution that for us anyway, both DH and I had to be patient with each other as our goal in the in law relationships became progress, not perfection, unity, mutual support, recognizing disordered behavior,  and empowerment through boundaries and strategies.

Another thing I had to recognize was I had some understandable trust issues from the passivity and giving over behaviors from my DH's long held position with his family. It was an adjustment for all of us, in laws included, and we experienced some pretty serious push back to him moving into a strong, consistent, protective stance.

We found it very important to give consistent verbal and non verbal messages and behave consistently within our family core values and limits. Working from our own foundation doing what is best and right for us and our family - no longer from a foundation and family paradigm thrust upon us developed by emotionally immature people - was a game changer, but not a change that was welcomed by those who refuse to live cooperatively and honestly with others.

So, if you do not intend to ever be alone with your mil and hash things out because she has proven herself untrustworthy and just "doesn't get it" it may be time to establish what works for you in terms of communication with her going forward and simply do that.

My one big boundary is to not speak with my own in laws alone or to communicate with them unless it is absolutely necessary and then only in written form within a group of people - text or email. I recently had been lulled into a sense of safety and broke that boundary and 5 minutes into what began as a conversation to clarify a benign question I deeply regretted that choice and the outcome that ensued. One on one my own in laws are not able to maintain their facade of benevolent love they claim in front of an audience. So, I redraw the boundaries and offer grace for myself. These are not relationships that are in anyway linear or that will ever really make sense. We are going to misstep and falter at times. And it causes harm, but we heal quicker and process much faster and move on with our happy lives.

Strength and continued growth and wisdom to you and your DH.

[spha6092]

Boat Babe,

This is HUGE! Better late than never! Took me over 20 years to get my DH to come around, but I will take it.   One thing I have found in s important- praise him, praise him, praise him.

Hopefully he had his own catharsis from this confrontation, but it never hurts to tell him how proud you are and how much it means to you. I also think that the first confrontation is the scariest. The more often he puts her in her place, the more natural it will become.

Don't be surprised or disappointed, though, if he relapses from time to time.  There is a delicate dance between the two of them. My MIL misbehaves, gets yelled at by DH, he stops calling her for a few days or a week, let's her "think about what she has done" (I know, like a child, right?), feel terrible about it, worry she has gone too far and may lose him, and it lets him cool down and get the upper hand.!

The cycle is always the same.

1. She has an unreasonable or irrational  request/tantrum, dumps her anxiety on him, upsets me.

2. He ignores her, she retreats.

3. He contacts her again, she apologizes, and lays low for awhile, seemingly respecting his/our wishes and boundaries. Love bombs with gifts or money. "See? I am not so bad!"  Little by little, she will push those boundaries down again. So covertly that it  often goes unnoticed until it's too late. We've been sucked in again.

4. Rinse, repeat. She just can't help herself. Even if  deep down she knows she shouldn't, in the moment, she thinks it's ok to behave this way.

I will never forget the day he first  stood up for me against her. She had said and done some truly awful things to him, which had upset me to the point of hyperventilating. When she tried to dig her nails in deeper, he raised his voice with her in a way I had NEVER heard him do.

He told her how much she had upset me, and if she EVER did it again, she would be seeing him on holidays only. And "if you EVER, EVER think I am going to choose YOU over Liz, then you're dead wrong."

I think this really shocked her. He let her fret over it for weeks. I think that is her ultimate fear - that she will push things just a little to far someday and lose him forever. Not that it quells her bad behavior, but that fear is still there and mostly keeps her in line.

To be clear, you do not owe her a relationship she doesn't deserve. Take yourself out of the line of fire and leave it to him to build his boundary/confrontation muscle. Hopefully she won't be one of those meanies who just won't die. Not sure why the mean ones live so long, but they do.

Blaming you is her go to for masking her shame. She knows what she does is wrong, and probably feels deep shame about it. Lying to herself and scapegoating you (the easy target) keeps her fantasy true. Reality is their worst nightmare.

Beware of love bombing with lunches, gifts, etc. she is most likely very angry that DH had the nerve to tell her off.  Her way of dealing with that anger may be warped. On the one hand, the gesture to "make things right" at lunch is an olive branch, but that may be an illusion - a way for her to say "see? I tried"

If you go to lunch, do not allow her to pay. Go dutch if you can. If not, pay the bill in advance of the check being brought to the table. This will knock her off her footing to do any "generous"  footing the bill, and will take away her power. After all, it's paid for. Maybe let her leave the tip. And whoat kind of jerk would complain about being treated to lunch?!

Another thing, my exSMIL and sometimes MIL would always say the most underhanded, thoughtless, provocative things to me when I was alone with her. She waited until there was no one else around and then would spring them on me, often leaving me speechless. I would think of a comeback hours later, but it was too late. She had put on such a good act to everyone else that they had a hard time believing she would say such things to me. With no proof, I looked like the crazy one, which is exactly what she wanted. Insidious.

I reference Game of Thrones often on these forums, but when dealing with PDs, it's not that far-fetched to equate their actions with the conniving machinations of the show's villains.  Always an angle. Backstabbing, grasping for power, chasing drama and causing chaos all while gleefully watching their manipulations destroy others' lives.

It's terrible and cynical we have to think about people this way. But we do. They do and say things they know will cause problems. They can try to come between us and our spouses. They use covert and overt tactics. Make no mistake, this woman sounds like she preys on others' vulnerabilities. Think: "What would Cersei do?" (for those who haven't seen GOT, she is the most evil villain). If you come up with something that is even close to what your MIL does, STAY AWAY!!!

Thanks Liz1018, it IS huge! Well, our marriage and two kids were on the line, so he finally took it seriously for the first time. Thanks so much for sharing your story as well, it's really helpful to hear. God that cycle is so familiar too. But I love that your DH finally said he wouldn't choose her over you. My DH hasn't quite said those words but he might be pushed into saying that if she continues the way she is. I do think she'll live a long time, haha. Her mother lasted for ages. And my DH's other grandmother - who I also think was a narcissist, and why DH's dad turned out to be such an enabler - lasted till her 90s too.

But yes you're right, DH said he can feel himself getting stronger each time. Whereas the last time he saw her a few months ago, he was completely sucked in and everything was on her terms. Whereas this time it's been on his terms.

Yes you're right, he will relapse. I've seen it happen a lot over the last six months already, but one difference is I can pull him up on it and he'll acknowledge now. And he sees now how he does it in our own relationship all the time as well and maybe now that he has all this extra emotional energy we're going to see those patterns more and more in our own relationship. Like the other night he suddenly remembered he was going to play basketball and I had already said it would be fine and confirmed again that it was totally fine, that I would manage the two kids, even though it would be hard. And then he suddenly went on about how they're tired and will go to sleep early and I said in a normal tone of voice that that was unlikely given how they normally are. Next thing I know he's sent a message saying he can't make it and when I said 'why did you do that??' he accused me of guilt-tripping him. Which I definitely was not but by this stage I was really pissed with him for not allowing me to just speak the truth rather than soothing his feelings. etc etc. A big part of this journey is about accepting the importance of truth.

I totally agree that her offer of lunch is a false olive branch. Your advice about how it's paid for is helpful and I never let her pay anyway, since she doesn't have money. And she'll just end up coming back to DH eventually to ask or 'borrow' some. But anyway, I'm really not sure I want to have lunch with her at all. I'm still sitting on the whole thing. I'm inclined towards only seeing her with DH present given what Bloomie said too. It puts DH in a difficult position though, right? But this way she won't say anything underhanded or nasty to me that won't at least be witnessed!

It's all very GOT except my MIL is, at the end of the day, not a powerful person at all. I'm actually the one with all the power and the one who is successful and well-connected etc. And I'm trying to help DH understand this about himself as well, and give himself more credit for how much he's achieved in his life. He's been trained his whole life to hide himself so that his mother and sister don't feel bad about themselves. I am really so glad my kids will be raised differently to this!

[spha6092]

spha6092 - this sounds like a big breakthrough and step forward for you and your DH! It is important for you both to sit with this moment in time when you found unity of purpose and agreement around how to best handle a very difficult person who has brought harm to your lives. 

It took a very long time for this moment to come in my own marriage and I would caution that for us anyway, both DH and I had to be patient with each other as our goal in the in law relationships became progress, not perfection, unity, mutual support, recognizing disordered behavior,  and empowerment through boundaries and strategies.

Another thing I had to recognize was I had some understandable trust issues from the passivity and giving over behaviors from my DH's long held position with his family. It was an adjustment for all of us, in laws included, and we experienced some pretty serious push back to him moving into a strong, consistent, protective stance.

We found it very important to give consistent verbal and non verbal messages and behave consistently within our family core values and limits. Working from our own foundation doing what is best and right for us and our family - no longer from a foundation and family paradigm thrust upon us developed by emotionally immature people - was a game changer, but not a change that was welcomed by those who refuse to live cooperatively and honestly with others.

So, if you do not intend to ever be alone with your mil and hash things out because she has proven herself untrustworthy and just "doesn't get it" it may be time to establish what works for you in terms of communication with her going forward and simply do that.

My one big boundary is to not speak with my own in laws alone or to communicate with them unless it is absolutely necessary and then only in written form within a group of people - text or email. I recently had been lulled into a sense of safety and broke that boundary and 5 minutes into what began as a conversation to clarify a benign question I deeply regretted that choice and the outcome that ensued. One on one my own in laws are not able to maintain their facade of benevolent love they claim in front of an audience. So, I redraw the boundaries and offer grace for myself. These are not relationships that are in anyway linear or that will ever really make sense. We are going to misstep and falter at times. And it causes harm, but we heal quicker and process much faster and move on with our happy lives.

Strength and continued growth and wisdom to you and your DH.

Thanks Bloomie, you are, as always a font of wisdom on these forums! I read your response last week and have been reflecting on it, and wanted to say thanks for sharing and encouraging. It is really good to read about your own journey and how your marriage evolved on these issues too.

We actually had a marriage counselling session on Monday and given yours and Liz1018 post's, I actually said to our counsellor that I only wanted to have lunch with MIL with DH present. It's not an idea I had before reading these responses.

But our counsellor said a firm no to that idea. She felt that it would put DH in a difficult position of watching the two women he loved in conflict. I found myself getting upset about what she said. But it basically comes down to the fact that our counsellor has said a few times 'we're not here to diagnose her [MIL]'. I get where she's coming from especially as her focus is on marriage counselling and yet we spend most of our sessions talking about my DH's family situation.

I said in the session that I was "done" with my MIL, which our counsellor thought was not wise on my part as we needed a way forward. Our counsellor said that even if the apology was false, which she accepted was likely, that ultimately I was just going to have to go with it in order achieve some sort of reconciliation and so my daughter has a grandmother again too etc.

I don't mind being challenged by her and I do think she is a good therapist otherwise. But after all these months I just can't see what the point of having lunch with her on my own will be, and it might even be harmful. So I'm still sitting on all of this but revisiting these posts again, I'm back to thinking it should be lunch with both of us. I'm also going to force her to re-read the email I sent her in August and say that that's what we're going to discuss at lunch, to start with. She told DH that my email was "toxic" which couldn't be further from the truth.

What's really ironic is that MIL trained to be a mediator a few years ago! But she's all facade and extremely performative, and now it all makes sense.

Thanks again for sharing your wisdom, I'm very grateful to read it 

[nanotech]

You know your situation best. Some therapists don't understand about narcissism/ personality disorder.
I get why she's saying to focus on you and husband, that she can't treat someone who isn't in front of her, but I agree too that MIL and her behaviour are having a negative  effect on your marriage.

The one to one stuff with a PD is so dangerous. They show their claws. Oftentimes they use them.
But group meetings too, have their drawbacks.
My family ( FOO not in-laws) always meet in a big group, and do the big 'love' illusion.
None of them can be civil or respectful to me one to one. None of them want one to one. They are pack hunters.
In a group they make a show 'for the cameras'.
I get hugs and 'love yous'. It's especially excruciating if we are in a public restaurant. They enjoy the 'audience'.
It doesn't last!
The 'love in' always turns sour. Once they 'warm up'  and have me ( had) in relaxed mode, they then casually throw passive aggressive barbs at me, usually dressed up as jokes or jolly anecdotes.
Another tactic is to get the scapegoat on their own for five seconds, whisper an insult, then  -off they go. It's like a quick bomb- dropping and fly off manoeuvre- it can be overt or covert.  but it's always terribly hurtful. Sometimes it's so passive aggressive that the  pain doesn't hit until hours after the 'party'.
This latter tactic was used more when they began to see my attendance slip.
The higher and stronger the boundaries get, the more covert they become.

To be honest, I think it will be really difficult either way. Sorry to say it, but forewarned is forearmed. 
So be prepared. She's controlled him for years. If he starts defending you to her, that's brilliant, but she will probably retreat to victim/ self pity mode at some point. Then he will likely get his buttons pressed and feel sorry for her. Be prepared for this. He's not yet viewing her with the same clear eyes as you.

Sorry if that's no help. 
Whatever you decide to do, be prepared for the meal to end when you decide. Have a reason to wrap it up. Another commitment to go to later maybe? Make something up. Just have an 'out' if it starts going pear- shaped.

Look at some of the work of Kris Godinez. Watching her videos made me realise I could just stop attending family  get - togethers.  That I had no obligation.
I understand that with in- laws, reducing/ stopping contact can be more difficult.  You need your husband on board. He's on the road, but he may not have reached the station yet. The important thing is, he's begun to see it.

My dad NEVER stood up to his UNPD mum. That was because of the duty he felt toward her. They exploit that.

In a nutshell, don't expect too much from this lunch. It's baby steps. Your husband has just begun to balance on his feet.

I'm sending hugsxxxxx

[Call Me Cordelia]

"She'll need to understand she's lucky that I'm even willing to talk to her at all given everything."

This this this!!!!! And what you said about you having all the power.

"Our counsellor said that even if the apology was false, which she accepted was likely, that ultimately I was just going to have to go with it in order achieve some sort of reconciliation and so my daughter has a grandmother again too etc."


You do NOT have to accept false apologies or go along to get along with someone who has abused you. If you're talking about the good of your DD, no grandmother is better than a toxic grandmother. It's so important to model for her what is and is not acceptable behavior. My own children are no longer in contact with any of their grandparents. It is such a blessing for us all. It's hard to fathom for most people and even myself not that long ago, because I tried everything I could think of to make things work. If you can't make things work in a way that truly works for YOU, sometimes that's just the way it is. It's better to be honest about that and accept the consequences of that truth.

[WinterStar]

One of the boundaries I have with PD in-laws is that DH has to be present. I don't think it's even unusual for nontoxic in-laws. I mean, my husband has never spent alone time with my mom, but I was supposed to enjoy 10 day visits of 24/7 MIL while he worked at least 7 of those days? Because she was "helping" with the kids. I think this is a double standard that tends to put women in the role of the family's communicator.

(MIL was not helping and not even interested in helping. She wanted to have a vacay with the grandkids.)

[spha6092]

You know your situation best. Some therapists don't understand about narcissism/ personality disorder.
I get why she's saying to focus on you and husband, that she can't treat someone who isn't in front of her, but I agree too that MIL and her behaviour are having a negative  effect on your marriage.

The one to one stuff with a PD is so dangerous. They show their claws. Oftentimes they use them.
But group meetings too, have their drawbacks.
My family ( FOO not in-laws) always meet in a big group, and do the big 'love' illusion.
None of them can be civil or respectful to me one to one. None of them want one to one. They are pack hunters.
In a group they make a show 'for the cameras'.
I get hugs and 'love yous'. It's especially excruciating if we are in a public restaurant. They enjoy the 'audience'.
It doesn't last!
The 'love in' always turns sour. Once they 'warm up'  and have me ( had) in relaxed mode, they then casually throw passive aggressive barbs at me, usually dressed up as jokes or jolly anecdotes.
Another tactic is to get the scapegoat on their own for five seconds, whisper an insult, then  -off they go. It's like a quick bomb- dropping and fly off manoeuvre- it can be overt or covert.  but it's always terribly hurtful. Sometimes it's so passive aggressive that the  pain doesn't hit until hours after the 'party'.
This latter tactic was used more when they began to see my attendance slip.
The higher and stronger the boundaries get, the more covert they become.

To be honest, I think it will be really difficult either way. Sorry to say it, but forewarned is forearmed. 
So be prepared. She's controlled him for years. If he starts defending you to her, that's brilliant, but she will probably retreat to victim/ self pity mode at some point. Then he will likely get his buttons pressed and feel sorry for her. Be prepared for this. He's not yet viewing her with the same clear eyes as you.

Sorry if that's no help. 
Whatever you decide to do, be prepared for the meal to end when you decide. Have a reason to wrap it up. Another commitment to go to later maybe? Make something up. Just have an 'out' if it starts going pear- shaped.

Look at some of the work of Kris Godinez. Watching her videos made me realise I could just stop attending family  get - togethers.  That I had no obligation.
I understand that with in- laws, reducing/ stopping contact can be more difficult.  You need your husband on board. He's on the road, but he may not have reached the station yet. The important thing is, he's begun to see it.

My dad NEVER stood up to his UNPD mum. That was because of the duty he felt toward her. They exploit that.

In a nutshell, don't expect too much from this lunch. It's baby steps. Your husband has just begun to balance on his feet.

I'm sending hugsxxxxx

Thanks for the hugs nanotech, received  Yes, you're right, it will be difficult either way. And yes I don't expect too much at all.

I totally get what you are saying about one-to-one. My parents are a bit like that as well. Usually their comments roll off me but they still manage to get to me occasionally. I don't know what my MIL will be like now that I've unmasked her and not particularly keen to find out!

When my DH saw her with the kids some months ago now, when he was off to the bathroom or not paying attention, she was in my almost 4-year-old daughter's ear to exclude mummy from her drawing of the family. Later DH pulled her up on it and my MIL denied of course and said that our extremely bright daughter "misunderstood". He was angry as well that time but I was absolutely furious.

So yes I totally get what you are saying about the higher the boundaries go up, the more covert they become.

DH still wants to things to work out with his mother, it's clear he hasn't quite gotten there yet. Discussing this issue of having lunch together highlight his struggle. He was saying yesterday that if the two of us meet her, she'll perceive from the start that we are ganging up on her. There's a lot of sighing and heavy breathing about this from him right now, so still a long way to go!

[spha6092]

"She'll need to understand she's lucky that I'm even willing to talk to her at all given everything."

This this this!!!!! And what you said about you having all the power.

"Our counsellor said that even if the apology was false, which she accepted was likely, that ultimately I was just going to have to go with it in order achieve some sort of reconciliation and so my daughter has a grandmother again too etc."


You do NOT have to accept false apologies or go along to get along with someone who has abused you. If you're talking about the good of your DD, no grandmother is better than a toxic grandmother. It's so important to model for her what is and is not acceptable behavior. My own children are no longer in contact with any of their grandparents. It is such a blessing for us all. It's hard to fathom for most people and even myself not that long ago, because I tried everything I could think of to make things work. If you can't make things work in a way that truly works for YOU, sometimes that's just the way it is. It's better to be honest about that and accept the consequences of that truth.

Thanks Call Me Cordelia, yeah I definitely am in favour of no grandmother rather than a toxic one. Lately I've been feeling generally sad that neither of us had loving, normal famliies. I feel sorry for my SIL - who has been pretty abusive towards my DH - as she's raising her two kids in the same way as my MIL and the intergenerational trauma continues. My SIL was even quoted in a news article last year about how her postnatal depression came out of nowhere and it was the first time in her life that that had ever happened - and even before this current episode I read that and knew that was totally bogus, that she had been previously diagnosed with anxiety and been on medication etc. But now that I see my MIL clearly it all makes sense about her codependence and anxiety and even her abusive behaviour now. She has chosen to believe the lies over the truth.

And we're slowly working out what we want together but it is a challenge since we're not quite on the same page yet.

[spha6092]

One of the boundaries I have with PD in-laws is that DH has to be present. I don't think it's even unusual for nontoxic in-laws. I mean, my husband has never spent alone time with my mom, but I was supposed to enjoy 10 day visits of 24/7 MIL while he worked at least 7 of those days? Because she was "helping" with the kids. I think this is a double standard that tends to put women in the role of the family's communicator.

(MIL was not helping and not even interested in helping. She wanted to have a vacay with the grandkids.)

This is such a good point! You're right that it's the double standard. In the past, even before this blow-up, I have said to my DH when things got too much that I didn't want a one-to-one relationship with his mother. I can think of several times where I said that, so it really has been a cycle over the years and now we're back to this again. Only the difference is I really understand now whereas in the past I/we just felt oppressed in ways I couldn't explain.

[Call Me Cordelia]

When my DH saw her with the kids some months ago now, when he was off to the bathroom or not paying attention, she was in my almost 4-year-old daughter's ear to exclude mummy from her drawing of the family.

You don't need that in your life. Your daughter doesn't need that in her life. Did your DH relate this incident to your T?

[spha6092]

Yes, at our appointment in December our T said that that was not acceptable. So it was a bit funny in the last session when she was urging me to find a way forward one-to-one.

I think she might have reacted like that because I basically said that my parents were pretty limited as well in terms of our interactions, and our T response was something like,' well your daughter can't just have no family on both sides. You have to work out a way, she's her grandmother."

But we have a lot of other people, we're hardly isolated. Our social calendar is crammed at the best of times. I have extended family I get on with fine, though they live in other states. My youngest brother ('the lost child' in so many ways) has become a bit more engaged recently. My parents are still there for us in acceptable, practical ways and they have a lot of redeeming qualities.

Whereas both my MIL and SIL aren't proving themselves to be very worthy I have to say. They absolutely piled on the cheap quality gifts for Christmas and New Years for the two kids ,which we have not passed on. I have been pushing back constantly for four years now anyway. We're going to have erect an extremely firm boundary about gifts - basically ask us first, or just give us money and we'll work out how to spend it. Or everything is going to end up being regifted so you're wasting your money. Reading the forums has really helped me understand the gift thing.

[nanotech]

When my DH saw her with the kids some months ago now, when he was off to the bathroom or not paying attention, she was in my almost 4-year-old daughter's ear to exclude mummy from her drawing of the family.

You don't need that in your life. Your daughter doesn't need that in her life. Did your DH relate this incident to your T?

I agree- this is terrible 😞.

The 'ganging up ' perception - I feel that this is projection. PDs like to hunt in packs, it's what they do, so they will always try to outnumber the victim.
You two have no intention of 'ganging up' on her, but they believe that everyone else wants to behave as they do. So this is how she will see it. It's skewed.
Your husband can be reminded that it's perfectly normal for a married couple to take one of their parents out for lunch.
Why is MIL viewing it like something from Game of Thrones? 
I think also, she's proven that she's sneaky when left on her own with your daughter. I would be very careful.  If you see her on your own and she's mean and nasty, she'll deny that too.

[Hilltop]

spha6092 I keep asking myself what is the end game here when I read this post.  It doesn't matter that your therapist feels the end game is to provide a relationship between grandmother and grandchild, what matters is what you think is in the best interest for your family.  I feel like the therapist, your DH and your MIL are all talking about getting to this one point of a relationship between MIL and your child however there's not much before that from your therapist regarding MIL's behaviour.  As with the drawing ok so she said it is bad what then, what concrete steps does she have to work on the underlying issue?  MIL's behaviour isn't going to change, she just wants time with her grandchild again, your MIL isn't interested in a relationship with you, its just about MIL's relationship with her grandchild. 

So if you accept that then what do you want for the upcoming relationship because you certainly don't need a one on one relationship with MIL.  DH can do all the communication.  Do you want to be present during any activities between MIL and your children?  If you do want to be present then how often would you be willing to do that, twice a year, once every 3 months, once a month?  I think the ball is in your court, work out what you are comfortable with and state your terms.  Would it be easier to see MIL once every 6 months to start with and plan something outside, an activity and go from there.  Or do you really want no contact?  Would your DH be comfortable with that?  Or would contact only on some holidays of the year be more workable or not on holidays because MIL will ruin them. 

As for the gifts I get how annoying it would be to receive trashy gifts but you know what, I would just accept them, let DH thank them, you don't have to ever utter the words thank you and I wouldn't, let DH do that or not do that, I wouldn't even remind him to thank them and then use what you can, throw the rest in the bin or donate them.  I wouldn't ask for money to be sent, or send a list, I wouldn't do this because it opens up one more avenue for confrontation and drama.  If your kids have heaps of other people in their life then let them enjoy that, really one more gift won't mean much.  Don't worry about MIL wasting her money, it is her choice what to buy, leave it up to her and if it isn't a good gift so be it, let it go, you probably know by now that she isn't going to do great but I would let it go.  If she doesn't want to waste her money she would ask you what to buy so this is her decision and as an adult she can do what she likes.  I wouldn't be drawn into this drama with her, I would let it go.

As for the lunch, I think your therapist is again pushing you.  Is this therapist use to working with PD families because not having your DH there means that your MIL will be open to saying and doing anything and being able to deny it later however that could be useful to you.  Lunch seems a little too much, would you be open to say meeting for a coffee and if it's going well you can stretch it out with a snack, if it goes badly you can leave much more easily without feeling bad that a meal is coming, it would be shorter as well. I would also go with some good comebacks just in case she insults you and I wouldn't hold back.  Stand up for yourself.  Also if your MIL is rude to you, then I would take that back to your DH and tell him that NC is definite.  However I don't know all of your history and perhaps you have reached that point already.  I would only go to lunch/coffee if you are looking for a way forward, if you aren't interested in that there is no point.  I guess think of it this way, you want DH there so what, he will see her insult you, or so that she won't insult you.  With DH there she will be on her best behaviour, I would be more interested in being alone with her and then seeing how she acts.  It doesn't matter if she denies anything later, if your MIL is rude or insults you alone, you have your answer, she is not trustworthy around your children.  You don't need to prove it to anyone, you know the truth, you say what happened and you say if others don't believe you too bad.  However that truth to me would be more important than anything else.  If she can't talk to you rationally then you have your answer.  It may be unpleasant but it could be worthwhile as well.  I personally wouldn't want DH there as a buffer, I would let MIL show her true colours, see what she says, if she is normal and civil then perhaps you will be able to move forward.

Say you went to lunch what is it that you need from MIL, an apology, what else?  MIL obviously only wants access to the grandchildren so are you able to move forward with a limited apology?  Are you looking at stating boundaries, what is MIL thinking she will get from this lunch?  Personally I would go to see what MIL has to say.  I would know your boundaries before you go, personally I don't think your MIL will be able to hide her snark however perhaps that's why I would go, can she have a civil conversation with you alone because if she can't I would drop the issue and say you are NC for another year or so and perhaps will try again later.  Really as you say you have a full life, even if MIL comes back around perhaps you won't be fitting her in as much as your MIL thinks.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yes, at our appointment in December our T said that that was not acceptable. So it was a bit funny in the last session when she was urging me to find a way forward one-to-one.

I think she might have reacted like that because I basically said that my parents were pretty limited as well in terms of our interactions, and our T response was something like,' well your daughter can't just have no family on both sides. You have to work out a way, she's her grandmother."

But we have a lot of other people, we're hardly isolated. Our social calendar is crammed at the best of times. I have extended family I get on with fine, though they live in other states. My youngest brother ('the lost child' in so many ways) has become a bit more engaged recently. My parents are still there for us in acceptable, practical ways and they have a lot of redeeming qualities.

Whereas both my MIL and SIL aren't proving themselves to be very worthy I have to say. They absolutely piled on the cheap quality gifts for Christmas and New Years for the two kids ,which we have not passed on. I have been pushing back constantly for four years now anyway. We're going to have erect an extremely firm boundary about gifts - basically ask us first, or just give us money and we'll work out how to spend it. Or everything is going to end up being regifted so you're wasting your money. Reading the forums has really helped me understand the gift thing.

Well, again, our kids have no family on both sides. It's 100% best for them. Some kids have small families, their grandparents are deceased, whatever. It's truly not the end of the world. I think a lot of Ts are somewhat understandably invested in the idea of the family being absolutely worth preserving. And Ts, especially family counselors, sort of have to believe that families can be preserved in general. I happen to still agree with that, generally. But I still think her telling you what you have to do is problematic. When I look at my own situation I have no doubt whatsoever, but when I look around me at other people and their expectations of what a "nice" person prioritizes, I get anxious. It would be hard having that judgment of a sort of authority figure like a T to deal with.

The fact that you have lots of good people in your lives screams to me that keeping this relationship with your MIL is absolutely not crucial to anybody's well-being.