New Boyfriend, New Problems

[SandorS@DEyes]

It's been a while since I've been on here.  Just for some brief background, I realized my now ex wife most likely has OCPD, comorbid with some other fun stuff, in 2019.  I moved out that summer and our divorce was finalized October 2020.  We have 4 daughters, ages 9, 8, 4 and 1 (I filed for divorce when she was 8 months pregnant).

Sometime around October of 2020 she began "officially" dating our old neighbor, someone who my kids have been around and known for 3-4 years.  Personally I was never a huge fan of the guy but I tolerated him as a neighbor and because his son was around the same age as my older kids and went to the same school.  Nice enough guy, just not someone I would have ever picked to be in my social circle. 

My 8 year old is a lot like me; she's intuitive, deeply empathic, and she watches/absorbs the world around her.  I knew as soon as I decided to move out that if any of our kids were going to have issues with there mother it was going to be her because we're so similar.  Up until this point I haven't heard or seen any evidence of behavioral issues from any of our kids, but around October our 8 year old started to act out (breaking things, lots of angry outbursts, fighting with her sisters).  She does NOT like my ex's BF at all and that seems to be the root of the problem. 

I found out about a week after Halloween that, while my ex's BF took his son and 2 our daughters out trick or treating the 8 year old chose to go to her Grandma's house (totally missing trick or treating altogether) because she did not want to go with him.  When I was still married and living at the house myself and my ex's now-BF actually took the kids out for Halloween 2 years in a row.  I also found out they were all planning a trip to Florida to see my ex's grandmother and my 8 year was pleading to stay with me because she didn't want to go on a 10 day vacation with him.  My daughter is a talented horse rider and her coach has long term plans for her to attend a school in Ohio for horse training.  She said she is one of the absolute best students she has ever had and both my ex and I have worked to get her riding more frequently (a cost which we split).  I found out she hadn't been riding in a few weeks (she was bound to miss some time with the holidays, of course) and the reason was she was being punished for her behavior at her mom's house. 

My ex sees nothing wrong here, her only issue is the 8 year old's behavior, mainly the breaking things.  Sometime before Christmas my daughters informed me that my ex and he had broken up and I let out a sigh of relief.  My 8 year old seemed much happier and although I did feel badly for my ex wife I was glad the problem seemed to resolve itself.  Then last week, the morning of the day I get all 4 of them for my 4 day weekend, my ex texts me saying she thinks our daughter would be much happier living with me temporarily.  She suggested she stay here for the remainder of the school year and even said she would be ok with me sending her to the private Catholic school right down the road from my house (my ex wife is vehemently anti-Catholic and actually threatened to divorce me when I began practicing my faith again).  She said that I told our daughter she could live here (which is not how that conversation went at all) and that she thinks a "break" from living with her would do everyone good.  I agreed to nothing and said I would need to talk with my therapist and possibly my lawyer first.  When I dropped the girls off after my long weekend my ex basically ambushed me in the doorway and demanded an answer, then went on saying how she could not have our daughter acting out in her house and that I needed to help her (even though I work 7 days in a row for 11 hours and she fought tooth and nail to be a SAHM and not get a job during the divorce).  I explained to her that I didn't really have any of these problems with the kids when they were with me and suggested, AGAIN, that therapy might be in order.  My ex refused that idea and I told her I would take our daughter to a counselor when I had her.

On the surface it seems like my daughter is making my ex's new relationship problematic and she wants to get rid of her.  I am now teaching my 8 year old the things I had to learn from books like OOFTG, WHen I Say No I Feel Guilty and others.  I know this is going to make things worse because my ex wife could not stand it when I asserted my right to have needs and feelings, when I refused to be yelled at or belittled.  The bottom line is our daughter is not "towing the line", she is not falling in with my ex's rigid expectations.  She is not hearing her concerns or validating her feelings.

I have an appointment with my therapist tomorrow and I completed the intake forms for a counselor for my daughter yesterday.  I had hoped these kinds of issues wouldn't pop up until my daughters were older, and really the boyfriend isn't so much the problem as the catalyst.  My daughter is now experiencing what I did for almost 10 years- invalidation, mocking, being forced into situations she is uncomfortable with, all while being made to feel like she is the root cause of the problem.  Before I left from dropping them off my daugher and I sat in the car and talked and the last thing I told her was that she is not the problem and changing her behavior is not the final solution.  I told her her mother is an adult who has made a choice to bring someone into the family and it is her responsibility to help my kids deal with that.

I would love nothing more than to have one or all of my kids live with me permanantly but I worry that with all the anger and resentment my daugher has built towards her mother in the last few months, if she were to stay here even temporarily she would become estranged from her mother and possibly her sisters.  I grew up with a Narc mother and from 14-16 we were constantly at each others' throats, and I think if someone had offered me a "break" from that environment I might have turned my back on her and not looked back.  Fortunately after therapy and setting boundaries my mother and I have a workable relationship today, but I do not want to see my daughter's life split from her sisters.  Furthermore, she does need to learn to express her anger in a constructive way and I don't believe simply removing her from the situation is doing her any favors.  I'm mostly venting because I'm just so upset and, frankly, angry at my ex for this situation but I'd welcome any advice or words of wisdom.

[ShyTurtle]

Maybe I am in a somewhat parallel situation to your family. My kids went to live with their dad about 6 years ago because they didn't like my updexbf. Knowing my exh and his upd, I really hesitated, but all the professionals said the kids need to be able to make that choice for themselves.

Summer 2020 I broke up with the updbf, and fall 2020 I found out that my unpdexh was severely mentally and physically abusing my youngest. It took a mental health crisis and an overnight hospital stay, and since he left the hospital, he is now living with me.

Now I'm in a situation where I can't afford full rent on my own, and so I'm moving in with this new guy I'm seeing. I think he's wonderful, but I'm terrified because of the history I have. Where I am I'm dealing with a severely pd housemate/landlady. We need to get out!

Like your daughter, my son has a very good sense about people, so I keep asking him how he feels about this. He says he thinks he's a nice guy and is excited to get out of here. I really hope he's right.

In my experience, the kids have behaviors when they feel a loss of control. If I were you, I'd have a private chat with her to find out how she can feel more in control of her own life.

[Penny Lane]

Is your ex proposing that you keep child support at the same level? This might have been her plan all along. We see this on the board a lot, it's more commonly PD dads than moms - they fight for more custody than they actually want, have child support set according to that custody level, and then as soon as it's finalized they stop showing up for their time, at least until they have a new girlfriend to try to impress.

My 2 cents is that you probably will not have an opportunity like this again. This is your chance to get at least one child out of a toxic abusive environment. However, it does not seem workable with your current schedule. I would really strongly consider what changes you can make to make this possible, including getting a lower paying job that is less demanding.

I don't really see her becoming estranged from her mom as a downside, or at least, it's not really a downside you can control. Your ex is setting herself on a path to become estranged from your daughter, and that's 100% on her. Your job is not to prevent (or of course encourage) that, but rather to help your daughter through the process no matter what her mom does.

One possible downside that does affect you, though, is that your ex uses this to try to alienate the other kids from you. PDs are very good at making an us vs them mentality. She will want to make your daughter who is with you into the bad guy, and thus discourage the other kids from wanting to be like her. The thing is though she will probably try to do that anyway, so I don't know if any action you take or don't take will really stop her from behaving that way. But it's something to consider as you weigh your options here. In a lot of ways I've found that being the golden child is much harder on the kids than being the scapegoat is.

I'm sorry that you don't have a coparent who can be a real partner in this. Your custody arrangement really only works if your ex is able to be a full time parent, through the hard stuff as well as the easy stuff. It sounds like she's not really able to do that, and so the arrangement isn't really working because your kids are not going to get what they need from her.

[SandorS@DEyes]

@PennyLane,
   Surprisingly support has not been brought up yet.  Because of my work schedule and how difficult it would be to prove she has a PD I never tried to fight for more parenting time (other than non-overnights, I did fight for extra days during the week to have dinner with the kids after work and school).  For her, keeping the kids and being a SAHM is part of the OCPD facade she had/has to maintain- she has worked exceptionally hard to create an image of a 1950s housewife, and to give up her children would call that into question.  So it wasn't about the kids themselves or what was good for them, they're basically accessories to her world, a key part of the image she must maintain.  So I don't believe her intention all along was to manipulate support after the fact.  I imagine what's happening to her now is the girls are becoming more and more autonomous, obviously my 8 year old is pushing back hard against her, so her need for absolute control and order (she referred to herself as the "queen of my house", which makes our kids subjects or peasants or...something...) might be causing an implosion.  Everything is fine when things go her way and she gets what she wants, but with 4 kids...well that just isn't going to happen.  And since she's incapable of bending or giving, her future looks bleek to me. 

You are absolutely right that it isn't my job to try to salvage their relationship.  I understood when I divorced her that she very well might ruin her relationship with at least one of our children, I just was not prepared for it to be so soon.  She IS responsible for her relationship with our daughter and I need to keep that fact in clearer focus. 

I believe she is already working on triangulating the girls; our older daughter is so much like her mother, I can almost see the genetic hardware in her to trend toward OCPD.  I can tell by some of the things she has said about her sister and the situation at their mom's house that she is leaning more toward mom's "side" than her sister's.  There has always been a natural tension between my two oldest daughters because they are so different and I am positive their mom is using that to manipulate this situation.  I can understand how being the favored child would be harder than being the scapegoat; my 8 year old at least knows that what is happening at home is wrong, and that nothing is wrong with her or how she feels.

My job situation is something I can't really control much.  A "lower paying job" for me would mean at minimum a 40% pay cut, if not more.  Its simply not a financially practical solution at this time; I have a mortgage now, plus of course child support and alimony.  I really don't know if she would actually consider letting our daughter stay with me permanently.  Its hard to guess her motivation.  She originally suggested she come stay with me for the rest of the school year- it could be that her plan is to move in with her boyfriend during that time and maybe she thinks my daughter would have no desire to go back at that point.  She is not above that kind of behavior.  I have an appointment with my therapist this evening and I'll see what his perspective and advice is.

It was nearly impossible to parent with her when I was married to her, and in some ways parenting has gotten easier since she really never added to or helped with the job of parenting.  At least now I don't have someone actively working against me in my own home when I'm parenting in real time.   I know she thought she would be able to pull this off but like I said, as soon as things aren't going exactly her way she starts breaking apart.  I don't think she will be able to maintain this situation much longer. 

Thanks for your input and suppor!

[SandorS@DEyes]

@ShyTurtle

  That is quite a lot to deal with!  I'm glad it sounds like thinIgs are looking up for you and your son.  The sense of relief when you finally can physically and emotionally relax after being on guard for so long is a tremendous thing! 

I did have a talk with her about what she thought might make things better when she's at her mom's.  One thing she brought up was that she needs her alone time (she's an introvert just like I am), but she does not have her own room or own space and the only place she really feels safe is under her bed.  She said often she'll go under her bed and her sister comes in and won't leave her alone.  I explained to her that if being alone is a need she has than part of being a family is working to respect that and help her get what she needs, and both her sister and mother need to understand that.  Will that happen?  Hard to say.  I'm looking forward to getting her started with therapy though because even though I've done a lot of therapy and a lot of work to get where I am today, I'm not a therapist.  I think that will help her better articulate what she wants/needs to feel safe and validated.  The issue of course is that my ex wife is probably not capable of giving her what she needs to feel safe and validated.

[Stillirise]

I truly feel for you, and your sweet girl.  I have noticed that it seems to be a typical PD behavior, at least in my world, to not give people the space they need.  It seems like it triggers their fear of abandonment, or they feel slighted, or out of control, or something?!  I've noticed stbx wanting to keep harping on DS and DD, when it's obvious they just want a few minutes of peace, to deal with their own thoughts and emotions. 

It can be hard for us, as grownups, to assert boundaries with a PD individual.  I can only imagine it's infinitely harder for a child to do so, especially with a parent.  I sincerely hope you can find a therapist for her, that can help her process it all.  Best wishes!

[SandorS@DEyes]

@Stillirise,

  That's been my experience too, both with my ex wife and my mother who is uNPD.  There's a...relentlessness to them when things aren't going their way, like they can, by the force of their will alone, make someone else do something if they just keep needling them. 

I had an appointment with my therapist last night and he said as long as she has expressed her desire to live with me than he supports it.  And of course he strongly encouraged getting her into therapy which I already have the ball rolling on.  It is still upsetting to me, knowing what she put me through for so long and just how awful I felt and knowing that my 8 year old is experiencing it now.  But all I can do is keep teaching her how to be a healthy person and try to keep her relationship with her sisters as good as possible.   

[ShyTurtle]

The issue of course is that my ex wife is probably not capable of giving her what she needs to feel safe and validated.

Oh I know...you're likely correct on this thought. My pdxh has no clue either, and it was really rough for our son while he lived with him. All you can do it make sure your kiddo feels that she is safe when talking to you.  As she gets older, her developing independence and sense of self will hopefully help her to be more articulate about what she needs.