Thoughts from the edge: Round and round. And back around.

[moglow]

Full disclosure - A recent rather random comment hit me wrong, and forced me to take a step back and reevaluate my thought processes. It wasn't personal or even directed at anyone I know, but my brain went sideways with it. In essence, someone said s/he "doesn't want to be here years from now still going through and talking about the same old stuff." Well, that's me in a nutshell: I've been here at Out of the FOG literally since the beginning. So yes, that comment stung until I could gather myself and adjust my sails, a redirection if you will.

Here's the thing, I was raised in a "mother is always right, and you dare not stand up for yourself or to her unless you're prepared to PAY" world. She's violent and vicious and completely without remorse - it's always someone else's fault. I put demands and expectations on myself and beat myself up on the regular; I was trained to do that. I'm the bad guy, the scapegoat, the target when she runs out of options.

You know and I know, "mother's" not in control and hasn't been for a very long time - we're all adults, right? We make our own living, have jobs and families and homes, are independent ... yet that spectre of the past is still with us. As a result [as a former counselor told me], I should and ought myself a lot: I "should" be past this/whatever ancient crap she's dredged up yet again. I "ought" to be able to stand up for myself. Sometimes I can, others not so much - there's still training to undo. I know all this and I know better! Yet here we are.

But know this: There's NO shame in being who you are, and short of doing intentional harm, you owe no apologies for that journey and wherever it takes you. We're all on very different paths, with a smorgasbord of abuses and damage to overcome, trying to build new foundations on shifting sands as we find our way. And ya know what? We're gonna slip. We're gonna say "well. that didn't go as planned." So we pick up, dust off and carry on to try another day. Wasn't it Einstein who said, "the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over, and expecting different results"? Sometimes, maybe we need to do the same things simply to reinforce how badly it can go wrong!

Okay, off my mini-soapbox. Know that here at least, you really are never alone. Been there, done it, and will probably back up and do some of it again, but I'm learning. 

[Amadahy]

I remember that comment or similar and my life-long companion Shame crept in.  I think often, and have written here, I'm 52 years old -- when can I finally feel healed?  Hell's bells!

But, you are so right - we're each on our own path with a zillion different variables, so why not be in good company here?!  😊

I get aggravated at myself, but when I can remember to extend the kindness I deserve, all is manageable.  For example, when I window visited Nmom at her care facility Thursday, I immediately got "the look" from her. That sent me into a tailspin including a migraine and bedrest for two days.  Only when I could talk to DH about it without how I "should" be able to handle, did I feel better.  But, it is work and certainly not linear, so I'm in and out here a lot, and may always be.  ❤️

[Outsiderchild]

It's definitely not linear for me either!  I visualize my path as an ascending spiral.  I may circle back and revisit the same old pain, but each time I am a little higher, each time I have learned more.  My skill set grows.   Okay, sometimes I slide, but even then it's not a straight downward plunge.   I am trying to not turn my search for health into just another thing I can beat myself up about.  So...ever ascending spirals.  The bitterness of "hearing" their voices tell me how I am "failing" at becoming healthy is not lost on me.   

[moglow]

Shame!! That's it - I took something in that wasn't mine, made it mine, and beat muself over the head with it. SO helpful of me!

As mommie dearest is so fond of saying: do as I say, not as I do. Do BETTER!! 🙄

[Boat Babe]

I saw the comment too and it did jump out at me. I have been here for about two and a half years and I love the forum. Especially during lockdown as we can't see our friends and we are alone with our thoughts and feelings most of the time.  My initial feeling was also shame (as in what a sad sack to have not moved on and still be lurking here).

The extent of PD abuse is horrifyingl. The damage it does, especially when we have had it in childhood, leaves permanent scars. When our children are affected by it, it is utterly heartbreaking.

As long as my membership of this forum is healthy, compassionate and useful (to myself and others) then I will be here for as long as it takes.

[Hilltop]

You know sometimes I feel like that, I just look at the years already gone and I wonder when I will be healed, when will it be done and then I read "Complex PTSD from surviving to thriving" and he talks about it being a life long journey and I just found myself saying d'oh. 

I berate myself for not being further along, for not having dealt with it earlier or easier but that's just the inner critic being noisy again. I am realising that it might not be something I do and it's over, it's probably going to stay my lifetime, as they say two steps forward, one step back.  Its frustrating but I'm learning, I'm moving forward slowly.

There is so much value in having people here who are further along in that journey,  that advice can be so valuable.  Its an individual journey but yes it does feel like trying to build new foundations on shifting sand as we find our way, Thank goodness for this forum though because a lot of people don't get it so its nice to be understood here.

[Duck]

I didn't see that comment but I recently had a similar epiphany. I had been beating myself up because I'm not "over" my parents.

Then, I thought about how poor parenting is similar to contracting a childhood disease like polio. If you get paralyzed from polio as a child, you can deal with the physical consequences for life. However, it is not your fault. As an adult, you can decide what doctors to consult. You can decide on your approach, but you can't erase that the virus infected your cells as a child.

Science has proved that humans need to be reared by their caregivers in a certain way. They need stable, reliable parents. They need protection, safety and acceptance when they are born and that's just the beginning. I didn't experience the upbringing needed for a juvenile of my species. Therefore, it is very natural that I experience long lasting effects. I should not feel any more shame about those effects than if I had polio. I told my therapist I realized this is not something you get "over," but a lifelong journey.

She replied that oftentimes, when we process our childhoods, issues come up more than once. However, we may not be looking at them from the same angle or dealing with the same aspect.

I think my shame came from people who are dismissive of childhood issues and want people to "stop blaming their mother for everything" and other flippant comments. I just read the information on ACE's someone posted in another thread. That is the rebuttal. Adverse childhood events matter.

A while back, I wrote in my journal, "Science is on my side."

Also, I really appreciate hearing from people on this forum who have more experience or wisdom than me. Your posts help me, moglow!

Many people don't question their upbringing. You are brave to look at your upbringing and become a more healthy person every day.

[Hilltop]

Duck I love the way you described that.  I do think in the beginning there is a sense of wanting it to be over however as you learn about the science behind it, it does become clearer that it's a lifelong journey.  Even when you begin to understand the neural pathways that were formed in our brains from our early years that gives us a startle response or how we react by fight, flee, freeze and fawn, those earlier messages are so ingrained in us.  It takes time to deconstruct those earlier messages and rewire our brains to respond differently. 

The fact that you even recognise shame in yourself would be far different from when you first started your journey.  You can recognise that and see it as a problem and deconstruct it, that's the awareness that none of us had earlier.  So the shame felt is just that old message when in actual fact there should be a sense of achievement at being aware and becoming healthier.

I guess so often we get this message to strive for happiness and once you get there everything will be good, when in actual fact that's impossible because happiness like any emotion is fleeting.  That's why I choose not to beat myself up over the time it takes because emotions are always going to be there and working to deal with my emotions more healthily, to become more aware is a worthwhile lifelong journey to me. To me it's like saying I am worth the effort and that's living with self compassion.

Also wanted to add what about Womaninterrupted.  How many people did she help on this forum, look at the tributes that flowed in from so many people that she helped.  If there were just newbies on here it would be the blind leading the blind.  Its worthwhile having people that care enough and feel strongly enough to stay and share their knowledge and journey, people that want to do that.  It shows an outer compassion which is also a sign of healing.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

I might have seen that comment or one similar. I mostly think everyone is welcome to get whatever benefits them most by being here. If it is a short visit for some, fine. For others, I think we are here posting and talking about our experiences not because we expect to get to a final destination to be able to drop it.  Rather, we might be here to reinforce the good path we are on and maybe to have some comfort in a shared experience and to know that we are not alone on our path. 

Personally, I am grateful to those who have been here a while because I think they are warriors and great problem solvers. I think they have a lot of insight to share and I would never get to a point where I would not want that.   
   
 
 

[Duck]

In an article I read about ACE's, one quote really struck me. The person was asking how the children and adults can be expected to heal and improve without sanctuary. Ever since, I have been thinking about the word, "sanctuary." I told my husband that I want our house to be a sanctuary and how both of us need one. I see this forum as a sanctuary.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

II told my husband that I want our house to be a sanctuary and how both of us need one. I see this forum as a sanctuary.

I feel the same, Duck. I want our house to be a sanctuary. I see this forum as a sanctuary too. When you have it, you know it and It's a great thing.   

[moglow]

I think my shame came from people who are dismissive of childhood issues and want people to "stop blaming their mother for everything" and other flippant comments. I just read the information on ACE's someone posted in another thread. That is the rebuttal. Adverse childhood events matter.

That is indeed part of the problem - and unfortunately people seem think it magically stops and/or heals when one becomes an adult. There's no consideration that at that point you've had some 18 years of indoctrination; that doesn't go away on its own. For many [most?] of us, it also doesn't stop when we leave home. The PDs continue on as they are with what they know, while we respond/react with our preprogrammed selves. We do better as we learn better, and often the good lessons have to be repeated to become ingrained while we're unlearning the bad. We're repeatedly told and buy into the "should" do this and "ought to" feel that.

I'm glad y'all see this as and we can provide sanctuary, and that it helps you watch others' journeys. That helps me reframe my own stuff and think it all the way through rather than give up halfway.

[Pepin]

I absolutely get this.  I've been a member since 2013.  I was also a member before 2013 under a different name.  *sigh*. Initially I started because of NF.  I was looking to connect with others because I felt terribly alone.  I was embarrassed about my past and I literally never opened to anyone about it.  I went NC with NF around 2008.

During some therapy with a narcissist specialist, we discovered that I wasn't having issues so much with NF anymore....it was PDmil....and even DH.  I literally lost it.  I was angry with myself.  I felt stupid.  My depression became worse.  I lived on hyper vigilance after that revelation and still do from time to time.  I couldn't believe I had walked into another narcissist trap after cutting ties with NF. 

I still visit here often.  Mostly because I am still looking for those that are similar to me and how they deal with it.

I can honestly say that I won't be able to move on from PDmil unless DH supports going NC or if she expires.  And I know this from having already gone NC with NF -- and actually lots of other people along the way.  NC is the only way.  In the meantime, even though I am VVVVVVVLC with PDmil, those tiny triggers are still going to get to me.  She is hands down one of the most covert ones I have ever met.  Sweet old lady my ass.  There are other words to describe how disgraceful her behavior is - not just to me, but to her children, husband and many others.  And of course from time to time I will be triggered by what others share.  We are empaths after all.

[doglady]

Yep, hands up from another who felt an instant ‘shame/loser’ feeling when I read that comment. I then thought, ‘good for you, it’s great that you’re healing,’ and felt genuine happiness for them. It really is very positive to hear when someone has been able to totally move on.

That said, I think I’m just inherently not one of those people for whom that’s ever going to fully happen. I think I’ll carry this stuff forever. It’s in my bones and my neurological pathways. BUT, in contrast to how I used to beat myself up for not being over it, I do now completely accept that it is ok not to be healed/recovered etc according to some particular timeline. I accept that it’s a lifelong journey and not linear.

For me it’s like some old radio in a shed you don’t go into very often that suddenly jumps into life and fizzes out some outdated claptrap - those ‘golden oldies’ we can all do without. There are days now, rather than hours, when those old ear worms aren’t front and centre. For me that’s progress.

I come and go a bit on Out of the FOG. I read so many comments and agree with so much here but I don’t comment as much as I ‘should’. Often, it’s due to that inner critic saying, ‘no one wants to hear you.’ It’s a hard thing to shake.

I’ve learned from being here is that this is a powerfully helpful forum with some wonderfully caring people and there are times I wouldn’t have coped without reading the shared wisdom on here.

As for the healing journey, I see it as we just have to keep sailing towards our North Star. Many of us are always going to somewhat weighed down by the ‘ballast’ but at least we are travelling across the vast ocean of life, under a good wind, and in the right direction. That’s all we can ask of ourselves. No matter how long it takes.

[doglady]

Just wanted to add: when I say ' I come and go on Out of the FOG,' I realise that possibly sounded flippant or maybe came off as I can take it or leave it. That is definitely not my intent at all. I'm here most days reading, I just don't always comment, mainly because I don't always feel I can add to the wisdom. I'm just silently nodding and feeling glad that is a place like this for us.

[Boat Babe]

Your wisdom shines doglady 😁

[SunnyMeadow]

I'm happy old timers are still here sharing their experiences and healing. I'm an old timer too, more than 4 years!

I'm impatiently waiting for my uNPD mother to pass. She's old and I really can't believe she's still marching on.     When she passes, it'll take away the horribly stress inducing task of going NC. Apparently my enmeshment, grooming and guilt won't allow me to go full NC. Tried it and it was terrible, so I need this place to help deal with her in my life. Things are so much better since I found Out of the FOG. I've become less enmeshed, dealing with my guilt and seeing her for what she is. This stuff just runs deep though; not sure I'll ever leave here.

I can see the this person's point of hoping they still won't be here years later. I don't want to be dealing with this crap from my mother either. I'm no spring chicken and it makes me angry that she's still running the drama and chaos show. But I am still here and it's so helpful!

And any person who's been here for years, I'm thankful you're sticking around.   

[blacksheep7]

I'm still here since Oct 2016 when I discovered this forum.....My Life Saver!   I turned 65 last summer. 
Let me tell you that your posts gave me a Lift as I was saying to myself the exact same thing, I'm still on this board reading and commenting.
Nc the first time in 2010 NYear's eve  because of ptsd and I didn't know anything about it expect that it got to me real bad, a mental breakdown without therapy at that point in time.   I didn't know what was going on, the interal/psychological had to be dealt with, started .
I reconnected with NM  three years later, then I noticed  that she still had no empathy when I cried out to her that she hurt me.  Then a couple of weeks later, she stated her revenge done during my nc with no emotion or guilt.  That woke me up for a second and final nc. 

Yes some Shame  with perfection, being hard on ourself still remains . It seems to be the basis of our upbringing, not being heard or seen, only acting on their needs and double standards.  I realized the Impact. 
For those of us who are  middle age, there is no doubt in my mind now that it takes longer to grieve and change our brain since we have been more years in the Fog than Out of the FOG.

I am still healing/greiving /changing my mindset and am giving myself some slack at the same time.   I found that living Covid has a lot to do with it, having no physical connection with the ones we love which we need so badly.

I'm also thankful for you all still hanging here.    Wisdom also comes in small spurts, there is always a phrase or comment that will make my/our day.

SunnyMeadow, I'm in the same boat as you.

[SparkStillLit]

I'm 47 and just learning. If you all weren't here.... Also I don't know where I will be in the future. I don't love this, but I'm trying to take it one day at a time, as they say. I come from a PD FOO and I set my foggy ass right into a PD marriage and there I have been for 25 years and launched a damaged traumatized hopefully not PD kid into the world with another on the platform.
I have all kinds of feelings about all this. It's nice to read through here and see the support and see where everbody's at and know that it's OK. I'm OK. There's not one way to do this, or a timeline or something, and I'm not effing it all up.

[SunnyMeadow]

It's nice to read through here and see the support and see where everbody's at and know that it's OK. I'm OK. There's not one way to do this, or a timeline or something, and I'm not effing it all up.

I like this! We all have to do this our own way. I have to do it the way that causes me the least anxiety.