What does the future hold?

[thedoghousedweller]

I've read a lot of the advice in the community in dealing with PD spouses.  A lot of it has been very informative and helpful.  I've come to realize that my uSPDw will not change.  COVID has seemed to insulate her from the need to connect with other people.   I've observed my need to connect more with friends from the past, current friends, with church, community activities and work.  I've made a real point of reaching out to friends to stay in touch.  However, it's been the opposite with her.  She's dropped communications with almost all friends and family. 

She wants to minimize time with me.  I go to bed and get up hours before she does.   When I come home, I sense that she heard the car and rushed into the bathroom or hit the couch feigning sleep.  Clues like a steamy hot teapot or a rush of footsteps (I can hear them from my garage) make it clear.  She started making dinner and leaving it out so that we could eat "whenever" but it usually means I'm eating alone.  When I sit down to the table, she disappears into her reading room.

We've had confrontations.  She says that I've lost all credibility due to my limited income that has stressed our finances badly (my business has underperformed and I'm searching for alternatives).  The last time I asked her, "what are you doing to help?"  No response.  She says biblically, it's my job to bring the income home.  And I agree that it was the path that I established by attaining the education.  However, the ox is in the ditch, so to speak.

I'm learning to focus on taking care of myself.  I still spend time with our children, but I also need interactions with other people.  I want to laugh.  I want to share stories that are not immediately dismissed as inconsequential.  I so badly need an affirmation that I have value.  I know God sees it, my friends and children see it. 

Looking ahead, I realize that this is my new normal. It seems that the overwhelming advice in Out of the FOG forums for people like me is to leave.   I will never ever seek divorce.  I made a vow and will see it through.  I will not seek gratification through porn or an affair.   I just dread the day that our D goes off to school, and we're empty nesters.  I'm hoping to buy a home with separate living spaces so that I can just shut off the blank stares, the avoidance, and the jealousy while doing my duty to stay married.  Just to cope. 

So I'm curious - for those who have decided to stick it out, what does the future hold?  Can I ever get to the point where the lack of empathy, acknowledgement, affirmation, touch, feeling don't hurt anymore? 

[notrightinthehead]

thedoghousedweller one sentence stuck out for me: ..... I so badly need an affirmation that I have value.  ..... and it reminded me that I used to look for affirmation in all the wrong places.  Affirmation from people who were simply incapable of giving me what I needed. I learned through Codependent Anonymous that I need to learn to  give validation to myself.
I don't know if that will work for you, but since you are determined to stay, you might want to find a self help group, or a counsellor, or a therapist that will help you do the work on yourself that will ultimately help you find some happiness. As our mantra goes: You cannot change the other person. You can, however, change yourself. Good luck!

[SonofThunder]

Hello TheDogHouseDweller,

You wrote " I've observed my need to connect more with friends from the past, current friends, with church, community activities and work.  I've made a real point of reaching out to friends to stay in touch. "

You also wrote " I'm learning to focus on taking care of myself.  I still spend time with our children, but I also need interactions with other people.  I want to laugh.  I want to share stories that are not immediately dismissed as inconsequential.  I so badly need an affirmation that I have value." 

Prior to dating Mrs DogHouse, did you have affirmation from an outside source (other than God) that you had value?   I personally believe that we must first find value in ourselves, before ever (if ever) looking to others for it.    I'm a Christ follower and I believe the potter 1. Created me  2. Died for me.  Therefore I have no reason to think I don't have tremendous value to the potter.  Therefore also, if the potter highly values me, I can highly value myself, and how can I NOT highly value myself.  The potter has the freedom to form me into a beautiful vase or a toilet bowl.  Both are very useful, but one has to deal with a lot more $#!t than the other.  Who am I to undervalue what the potter formed?   Know that the potter himself, had you in mind prior to you being born.  He also had your uSPDw in mind as well.   But you are not her potter, therefore try to keep your focus on the 51% rule, while also keeping the 50% rule in mind to keep yourself in check. 

If you don't believe you can affirm yourself, by yourself, then there may be some work to do there first, and your kiddos need also to learn/witness and therefore model a dad who loves and affirms himself, regardless of the mental condition of their mother. 

I personally am an introvert.   INTJ on the Myers Briggs btw.   Others are extroverts.  If you have not completed a basic (20 min) test, to see where you fall in the 16 Myers Briggs acronyms, it can be fun and enlightening. (truity.com for example)   I am the only I=introvert in my family.  Most introverts 'recharge' alone.  Most extroverts 'recharge' with others.  If you are an extrovert, it's very natural for you to recharge with others, so knowing your 'other'  is not going to be your uSPDw, just continue to do what you did before marriage, by hanging out with some other guys in some fashion, wherever that may be (church, hobbies, sports etc..) in order to 'recharge' and connect.   Again for me, I do that alone and I love it.  Now, your wife may be (not considering her uPD) an introvert, and if so, you won't change it, nor should you try.  Introverts are marginalized because extroverts think we are 'different' and believe we introverts need to change.  Haha they should worry about themselves. 

Again, since we only really can control ourselves, I believe we must affirm and love ourselves (extrovert or introvert)  before we ever look to others to do that for us.  I just happen to be a toilet bowl who has lived 3 decades in the house with a uPDw and had a lot of of $#!t thrown at me, but I keep myself super cleaned up and in great working order and I'm working on being the best darn toilet bowl I can be, until either my uPDw decides to get herself a different toilet, I decide my toilet will reside elsewhere, or my potter desires to mold me again into some different vessel.   

Lastly, I want to urge you to (from the toolbox) use MC and no-JADE.  Your comment to your uSPDw of  "what are you doing to help?"  is like throwing a fresh chicken into a crocodile pond.  The Out of the FOG is your best friend to help you stay focused on being a dad, being your own best friend, and being a good friend to others.   

Cheers,

SoT

[IcedCoffee]

So I'm curious - for those who have decided to stick it out, what does the future hold?  Can I ever get to the point where the lack of empathy, acknowledgement, affirmation, touch, feeling don't hurt anymore?

I've found that Medium Chilling and no-JADEing have made a big difference. We haven't argued (according to my definition) in months. Although in her reality we probably still argue all the time! She still loses her temper for no reason, reacts inappropriately, but they don't last too long and she quickly forgets.

I concur with SoT, never, ever say "what are you doing to help?" Red rags and bulls spring to mind! It gets easier with practise.

But that's not answering your question. I am hoping that we've entered a new period with less craziness. Ok, so there's still the same lack of empathy, acknowledgement, intimacy, etc. But maybe I'll have bought some time in which one or more of 1) she goes to therapy and is diagnosed, 2) she gets a bit better with age, or 3) there's a miracle cure (although why would she take it?!). One day at a time.

[SparkStillLit]

One day at a time is my motto, too. I am applying new skills to MY life and improving MY Own life. I really can't say what the future holds, other than a better life for me no matter what.
I seek friendship and that elsewhere. Intimacy and romance? Well, I just have to do without for now. Honestly, I'm not worried about it. Again, day by day.

[Cascade]

So I'm curious - for those who have decided to stick it out, what does the future hold?  Can I ever get to the point where the lack of empathy, acknowledgement, affirmation, touch, feeling don't hurt anymore?

I'm not sure what the future holds, and I don't feel like I have much to look forward to but I try to focus on little positive things, like eating my favorite meal or spending time on my hobbies. I have been married for over 30 years and I still haven't gotten to the point where the lack of emotional intimacy in my marriage doesn't hurt anymore, but I will say they it hurts a lot less than it used to.

[SonofThunder]

So I'm curious - for those who have decided to stick it out, what does the future hold?  Can I ever get to the point where the lack of empathy, acknowledgement, affirmation, touch, feeling don't hurt anymore?

I'm not sure what the future holds, and I don't feel like I have much to look forward to but I try to focus on little positive things, like eating my favorite meal or spending time on my hobbies. I have been married for over 30 years and I still haven't gotten to the point where the lack of emotional intimacy in my marriage doesn't hurt anymore, but I will say they it hurts a lot less than it used to.

Cascade and DogHouse,  I'm 30 years as well in 2021 and "sticking it out".  I will presume that we non's have never experienced true "empathy, acknowledgement, affirmation, touch, feeling..." (DogHouse's words) and "emotional intimacy"  from our PD spouses.   We may get a trickle of it at times and prior to marriage in the dating stage, we may have received a love-bombing flood of it, as the PD set out to permanently acquire a lifetime target. 

So, prior to dating your PD, where did you find  "empathy, acknowledgement, affirmation, touch, feeling..." and "emotional intimacy" ?   I will add that imo, if those only come from other humans, outside ourselves, that is an open door for manipulation and control.   Imo, we must love ourselves 1% more than we love others (51% rule), and therefore we must find ways to self-empathize, self-acknowledge, self-affirm and have emotional intimacy with ourselves as our own best friends. 

Some people also find many on that list (in addition to from ourselves) from their faith in a deity that loves them.  (In my case I chose the case for Christ).  Additionally, many also get empathy, acknowledgement and affirmation from friends.  Pets can add a form of empathy, acknowledgement and affirmation, especially if us non's are proactive in training and/or daily care of pets, as the pets become a reflection of their owners (either owner I may add......so be careful not to let a pet be an enmeshed part of the PD manipulation, as I have experienced).   

So therefore, relying heavily on a PD for that list is putting oneself in the path of manipulation and control.  For me, I chose to not expect any of those things from my PD and if some show up, I am careful to understand that the emotional parts of the list are probably fabricated under the veil of PD in some way, but the physical, I will accept.  With regard to the giving of these same items to my uPDw, I understand they are all received under the veil of PD and can be tricky in providing to my PD so I must use the toolbox carefully as I navigate. 

So, in closing, I would suggest that we married non's, find the emotional things from ourselves and others and the physical things from ourselves and our spouses.   All of which can be under the veil of faith if one desires and not under the veil of PD (using the toolbox).

SoT

[IcedCoffee]

Nicely put, SoT. My uBPDw says she feels empty inside, with no identity. I'm the exact  opposite, and so pretty self sufficient emotionally. (Of course, the meds help!) I could use some physical intimacy though. 

[thedoghousedweller]

To many of you who have responded, thank you.   You have given me much to chew on including MC and no-JADE and 51/49.  I realize there is no magic bullet but incremental steps in acceptance. 

I will keep pressing on for the goal, but it's not easy.

[SonofThunder]

To many of you who have responded, thank you.   You have given me much to chew on including MC and no-JADE and 51/49.  I realize there is no magic bullet but incremental steps in acceptance. 

I will keep pressing on for the goal, but it's not easy.

DogHouse,

For many, coming Out of the FOG, may also mean a whole new level of 'alone'.  Certainly, coming Out of the FOG and properly learning and utilizing the Out of the FOG toolbox to protect ourselves, our children and any other person/creature/asset we are responsible to protect (elderly, handicapped, animals, assets) from manipulation and abuse, is a good and honorable endeavor. 

But, like Adam and Eve, once we bite into the fog-lifting apple of awareness, we are very aware of what and whom we are married to, and the naked truth and reality of both good and evil in our path is the fork in the trail we must traverse.   But, we are also not 'forced' to walk this direction, as we control ourselves and we have the option to remain married or divorce. 

If minor children are involved, i believe we have the obligation to protect them, in the way that is most beneficial to them in the LONG run.  Imo, raising children and training dogs are similar (ive done both).  At the front end of dog training, the dog experiences some situations that have slightly negative consequences and the dog must learn to chose, not be forced to chose.  Eventually the dog will, through experiencing both the good and the bad consequences, choose the good/proper.  The end result is that a fully trained dog is a free dog, and the rest of the dogs life is more enjoyable and relaxed than if it was untrained, although it had to endure the learning process. 

Depending on the situation that minor children are living in, and the ages of the minor children, it may be beneficial for the children (in the long run), for them to also experience the front-end difficulties of parents divorcing, in order to reside with the non-pd from then on, and therefore receive the more balanced conditions in a home with the non, learning that what they experienced prior, in the home of a PD, is not normal or proper.  But imo, if the children legally must remain with the PD, then imo they also need the presence of the non with them to protect them and teach them, through example and knowledge, what is good and proper. 

In some cases, such as my own, i was able to remain in my home with my non while the children were minors and teach them through example and knowledge.  In 2018 (my children were out of the nest), my uPDw ramped up her manipulation at me to a point, that it was time for 1. Her to get some training that I choose my own path. 2. Me to test the 'u' in uPD.   For most NPD/BPD's the large overarching condition that exists, is 'fear of abandonment', and PD's manipulate everything to keep from experiencing this.   

In July of 2018, at the height of a particular episode of attempted manipulation, i deployed a pre-prepared 'healing separation' (look it up if needed), and my stated reason for the need was that I was experiencing issues with myself, that i needed time apart (mine was a stated in advance 90 days min-365 days max) in order to work on myself and then come back together (if she and I desired after the min 90 days was up).  The benefits of this move were A: my uPDw realized i am in full control of myself. B: i experienced what it was like to live alone (i loved it).  C: my uPDw, will NEVER forget what it was like for her to be 'abandoned'  (i had to remember shes an adult so its not abandonment but separation and let her be an adult).  D: my uPDw knows that i have the self-control and right to leave. 

The experience for me, was both very painful to initially go through, because her fear of abandonment caused her to have a total meltdown (but l had to let her 'adult') but was a fantastic lesson for me.  During the 90 days, she attempted to convey she was fine, that i cheated on her, that i was a terrible husband and so forth, but i know its the PD talking and non of it was true.  So the toolbox was still necessary as i communicated only very little, but each time the toolbox was necessary.   Toward the end of the 90 days, my uPDw had developed a normal daily routine, but the 'abandonment' feelings were still SO very strong and were the toughest for her to endure.  She was very kind at that point, and in-fact, repeated a bit of the 'love-bombing' i experienced when we dated back in the late 80's, in order to have me return, but this time, i knew it was temporary.

She has now fully returned to her uPDw ways, but she is a bit more cautious than before, because she knows i have the willpower to leave, and understands that it is I who am choosing to stay, not her making me stay.  I would have never done this with minor kids in the home, but it was a very beneficial experience for me, to decide if (now that kids have flown), i want to leave or stay.   In my particular experience, staying was my best option because of circumstances in my life which i would have to face permanently, because im self employed and with some success. Knowing that PD's go into full-on mode when being permanently abandoned, i had too much to lose, including the potential of very real difficulties for my employees as well.  To each his/her own on that decision. 

Now going full circle, i mentioned 'alone' at the beginning.  I did not purposefully say 'lonely'.  I am very much alone in my home with my uPDw, but not the least bit lonely.   I have friends, coworkers, online anonymous friends and interests and am very much involved there.  Life for me, with the Out of the FOG toolbox is very much do-able with my uPDw.   I fully understand i dont have a relationship with her that is anywhere close to a normal husband/wife relationship, but the 50% rule reminds me i am 50% responsible and 51% rule reminds me to love myself 1% more than her or others.   

So i encourage you to accept being 'alone' in certain ways, in your new 'out if the fog reality',  but to proactively abandon and refuse loneliness and replace that with kids, hobbies, friends, other family, pets, work etc... all in a balanced manner: all no matter how much your PD attempts manipulation of your free choices to make for yourself.   Cheers to you.

SoT

[SparkStillLit]

Definitely use the toolbox, use advice from here that seens helpful, if a therapist looks luke a useful option for you, do that too. Do whatever you can to be an independent person. It definitely does not get better with time, and maybe gets worse the more you implement all this stuff.
You will need to be strong, whatever you choose.

[1footouttadefog]

I just read the wiki article for SPD.  There are many overlaps with what I live with.

There are no easy answers here, esoecially if you intend to stay in the marriage.  It will never be normal, applying the tools can make it better.  Staying means accepting that and accepting the sacrifice of what you may have expected from marriage.  There will potentially be a grieving process involved, and possibly repeatedly so.  Be kind to yourself during those times, and be sure its okay to have intense feelings at your losses and sacrifice. ( And what is being stolen or withheld from you )

I find that my pdH is unable to be there for emotionally.  Just cannot and will not happen, whatever oart him that was is no longer there. Unable to share adult conversation,  has no interest unless its a topic he brings up, has childlike need for attention and on and on and on.  Additionally he does not get out and interact and actually seems to enjoy that I do.  He sort of vicariously lives thriugh my social interactions. 

I relized years bacl thst my spouse is disabled emotionally.  A para or quadraolegic in this regard.  I would not insist that a paraplegic spouse run in the beach with me or climb the roof to repair it, or play on a beach volly ball team with me. 

Once I accepted that my spouse was disabled and I could not change it by sacrificing more and more of myself, I started seeking to fullfill my needs elseware where morally possible.  Intelectual, spiritual, social, musical, articstic, culinary, and so on.  They are no in my hands.

**Once I stopped constantly expecting what he cannot do and who he cannot be, he quit constantly being placed in a position to fail.***

I lowered the bar alot.

That was huge for us and relieved alot of the stress on the home environment amd things did improve on a day to day basis.

[SonofThunder]

I just read the wiki article for SPD.  There are many overlaps with what I live with.

There are no easy answers here, esoecially if you intend to stay in the marriage.  It will never be normal, applying the tools can make it better.  Staying means accepting that and accepting the sacrifice of what you may have expected from marriage.  There will potentially be a grieving process involved, and possibly repeatedly so.  Be kind to yourself during those times, and be sure its okay to have intense feelings at your losses and sacrifice. ( And what is being stolen or withheld from you )

I find that my pdH is unable to be there for emotionally.  Just cannot and will not happen, whatever oart him that was is no longer there. Unable to share adult conversation,  has no interest unless its a topic he brings up, has childlike need for attention and on and on and on.  Additionally he does not get out and interact and actually seems to enjoy that I do.  He sort of vicariously lives thriugh my social interactions. 

I relized years bacl thst my spouse is disabled emotionally.  A para or quadraolegic in this regard.  I would not insist that a paraplegic spouse run in the beach with me or climb the roof to repair it, or play on a beach volly ball team with me. 

Once I accepted that my spouse was disabled and I could not change it by sacrificing more and more of myself, I started seeking to fullfill my needs elseware where morally possible.  Intelectual, spiritual, social, musical, articstic, culinary, and so on.  They are no in my hands.

**Once I stopped constantly expecting what he cannot do and who he cannot be, he quit constantly being placed in a position to fail.***

I lowered the bar alot.

That was huge for us and relieved alot of the stress on the home environment amd things did improve on a day to day basis.

1Foot,  i can empathize with your willingness to compare your spouse to having a certain handicap and so lowering the bar.  I do the same and so mentally consider my uPDw to living with a wife who has severe tourette's syndrome.   If my wife actually did, it would define some of the things that come out of her mouth toward me and so my reaction would be chill, knowing it was the handicap talking.  It helps, but surely is a reminder, in my future with my wife, that this uPD is a permanent feature with her, and so therefore also is my strict use of the toolbox. 

SoT