N-SIL and her “death stare” - how to handle?

[DesertRose]

After many years around SIL, I am fairly convinced that she is a malignant covert narcissist, and / or potentially on the antisocial personality spectrum. (And I am not the only one, as I learned from my MIL that a psychologist once told her SIL is a psychopath - MIL said the psychologist was "just jealous" of SIL and didn't want to see her succeed. I could not figure out why MIL had shared that unflattering info with me until I realised it was probably designed to prevent me from also saying that SIL was a psychopath and thereby being accused of also being jealous. Ironically it helped me to cement my beliefs and conclusions instead).

One of the primary ways my SIL abuses me is via behaviours. It is very confusing if you aren't expecting it. Examples include making faces at me (sneering, glaring, giving what her family calls the death stare) when no one else is looking. And then, moments later, acting perfectly normal and pleasant as though it never happened. Sometimes it seems to be in response to something I have said (Eg, a sneer when I kindly offered her something) or a glare of pure hatred when I offered to do something kind for her family. 

How would you deal with these things? Just ignore? Say something? Ask if she is trying to say something?

I used to be confused by it - I used to give her the benefit of the doubt and I interpreted her hot - cold - hot - cold behaviours as an internal battle I thought she must be having. I figured she was trying to accept the fact that her brother was married even though she found it hard to accept and that in the moments of glaring and sneering directly at me she was giving in to feeling in the moment and in the other times when she was acting pleasant (and I could see and feel that it was fake) that she was battling internally to do the right thing and be nice. Now I know better. Now I believe her pleasant side is often just putting on a show and the real her is the hate filled individual I see giving me the death stare. She hates me and it hasn't change all these years. The thing that has changed is that I see the hatred, bitterness, and resentment of hers for what it is now and am no longer fooled by her show of fake nice.

I would be grateful for any advice on how to deal with glaring, sneering, death stares, esp when other people are present in the room but might not see "the look" taking place.

[Boat Babe]

Hiya, my first reaction is to say laugh at her when she gives you the death stare but that might prove difficult in company.  Or just lift a quizzical eyebrow.

You may benefit from using the tools on the Out of the FOG website. Others here have used them to good effect.

Is it possible to go VLC with your SIL? 

[DesertRose]

Thank you Boat Babe.  I can see where laughing it off or raising an eyebrow and moving on quickly would be not taking the bait and also not taking it too seriously. Usually the faces she makes catch me a bit off guard bc everyone is being pleasant and then she catches my eye and makes a face - and it doesn't happen all the time. Last time she did it it did affect me emotionally and I had to re-ground myself. I had felt relaxed and happy and safe for a short time with DH's family at a family gathering. DH was sitting next to me in the grass and his back was to SIL and me at that time. I had just gotten up to chase my toddler and was standing while they were seated.  I mentioned something to SIL about something I had wanted to give her (a nice gift) for her baby, and she gave me a look of contempt and disgust - but it wasn't just a glance/flash of emotion. It went on and on - she was definitely attempting to communicate and it might not even be a rejection of the thing I had offered her so much as trying to show her disdain? Hatred? I have literally never done anything to her besides marry her brother. I said "oh I can see by the look on your face that you aren't interested in (the gift)" and went on chasing my toddler and walked off. Maybe that was what she wanted me to do as I know she wants my DH (her brother) to herself as much as possible. DH did not even know this "look" had taken place until later when I told him. Then she went about trying to act normal and sweet with her signature big smile (kind of like pretending to be Snow White, especially in her voice which is always very soft even when she says cruel things).

Regarding whether I can go VLC (very low contact?), I am trying. After the above episode she sent me pics of our children playing together. I took my time not replying for a few days and said very few words (Eg, "that's nice, how sweet").  I am naturally someone who wants to nurture family relationships but as I gain clarity on SIL I realise she will never be safe and always be cruel despite putting on a show when it suits her. So I am trying to learn to do medium cool with her and I generally don't initiate contact at all.

[Boat Babe]

Sounds like you are coping well. They can blindside us though and catch us completely undefended, which is what she appears to be good at.
Hopefully you can keep her at arm's length and build up your sense of self worth so her truly unpleasant doesn't hurt you at all.

Once she realizes that you are Teflon coated as far as she is concerned, she is likely to dial it down
Good luck.

[DesertRose]

Thank you! That is encouraging to know. This last sneer episode was partly what made me conclude that she would never change and that things with her really haven't gotten any better. My DH - for years - kept talking me into continuing to try. He also tried to get her to modify her behaviour towards me and would set up my expectations that she would change. If it were me alone as a single individual I would have distanced myself years ago. I kept trying bc DH would convince me to keep trying ... but I have now put my foot down with DH in convincing him that she is horrible to me. He had a hard time believing it and thought both she and I were equally to blame for tensions and weird vibes between us. When I first met SIL I saw her as insecure and grasping and shallow. I was like more Teflon then. Much more likely to let her comments just roll off bc I was confident in myself and really didn't care what this insecure and fake woman thought of me. But being married to DH and seeing how much he loved his family and wanted us all to have good relationships caused me to want the relationship to work and made me want a connection with her. I would listen to what he said about her and give her the benefit of the doubt or feel sorry for her. I would try to see whatever role I might have played in causing the various problems. It took a while until I came across a book on Narcissism and had a lightbulb moment. It's taken about the past year to get to this place. I had to have a big talk with hubby where I was going to share my perspective on SIL regardless of what he thought of me for it or how upset he got. And he finally listened. Now I realise I need to literally have my game face on every single time I see SIL. Guard up. Because the entire thing is one big poker game to her. I haven't wanted to believe it, really. It's been hard to accept.  I have to grieve what I had wanted... I wanted a family where ppl treat each other with dignity and respect and that is not going to happen here.

[Boat Babe]

❤️❤️❤️

[BettyGray]

DesertRose,

Wow, that’s a powerful vortex of drama. It would grab anyone and pull them in.

PDs love new, unsuspecting victims. They single you out, are careful to misbehave when no one else is around to see or hear them, then act fine around other people. I had an ex-stepMIL that pulled similar things to those your SIL apparently employs against you: muttering under her breath,  underhanded remarks meant to confuse me, saying weird or inappropriate things when I was the only audience, etc. She would talk about DH’s ex, knowing it would upset me. Then when FIL or DH were around she acted like we were good buddies. It was crazy making. Plus, being the new addition to the family, I didn’t want to make waves. She had been around a lot longer than I.

I learned from my MIL that a psychologist once told her SIL is a psychopath - MIL said the psychologist was “just jealous” of SIL and didn’t want to see her succeed.

ROFLMAO!!!

Wow, that’s some serious mental gymnastics. Jealous! Of course! Methinks MIL doesn’t want to admit she raised a psychopath! Blame the therapist!! Jealous....of someone she has never met. Sorry, I just can’t stop laughing at this one.

It sounds like you have come to expect these behaviors, so that strips them of their power a little. What you describe reminds me of that obnoxious kid on a plane, gleefully kicking your seat  from behind, making faces when you stare at him. Then, a parent comes back from the restroom, and he is a perfect little angel. Or he goes right back to kicking, and the parent does nothing. What the heck can you possibly do about it?

Good thing is, you are not stuck on an airplane. You can walk away, leave the room, the building, etc. It would be funny, though, if the next time she does this (and she knows you see her), you just walk up to her, say nothing, and just stare her down like she is an animal in the zoo. With a blank expression. No anger, no searing glances, no laughing, just staring.  My bet is that she will eventually become so uncomfortable  , look away,  and walk away. Show her you’re not scared of her, and do the opposite of what she expects. She anticipates your being uncomfortable, or getting upset, or walking away. Turn the tables.

Ignoring works, too. They hate that. No eye contact, no close proximity to her, never alone with her.  You’re doing the right thing by not replying to emails or texts right away. Short, concise replies devoid of emotion are good. Treat her like she is an acquaintance at work.

It sounds like she may have uBPD characteristics as well. Her tactics are familiar to me. My sister has a lot of similar  behaviors. She acts like a teenager, even though she is a grown woman. Bad attention is better than no attention.

It’s natural for your DH to want the best for everyone, and to not feel he is in the middle. But denial can not last so long. That’s great he finally listened to you. You showed him that you have tried, at his request, but she obviously doesn’t want to play nice and she has put you in a bad position.  You can say you tried. Gifts are nice, but it won’t make a difference in how she treats you. I wouldn’t go overboard with her, but focus on what makes her kids happy.

Last, preserve your energy for yourself and your own family. These people are beyond help, beyond emotional maturity, beyond self-respect, and they pretty much hate themselves and anyone who is happy.

[DesertRose]

Liz1018, thank you for your reply. You've made some excellent points. The fact that SIL may have BPD traits also did cross my mind, so that is helpful. I do know she has untreated bulimia, which for some reason strikes me as linked to BPD tendencies. Whatever it is, her behaviours are really abusive, manipulative, and insidious.  She is very patronising, blaming, demeaning, etc, under an aura of "fake nice" - all the while coming across like she is barely putting up with me and barely tolerating me. And only really acting nice when she is up to some game and trying to have her way (Eg, like the time before she was married and before she had a child, when she managed to commandeer Mother's Day so that it was all about what SHE wanted instead of honouring mother or giving mothers some time off, so that DH and I had to host an exhausting event at our house on Mother's Day which I had specifically told her I did not want to do twice, and which she went behind my back to convince DH to plan and I only found out late the night before after all had been set in motion - on that day, because she had what she wanted, she acted really "nice").

About the death stare, I have heard and read manipulative people try to assert "dominance" by their gaze. So it makes sense to simply stare back to show it's not working. I don't know if that might cause her to say that *I* was staring at her or make a scene about it that way. I do think she is playing some kind of dominance game and wants to "put me in my place" in her family and to be top dog. (She even gets angry when people talk to other people instead of constant talking to her on her birthday or days when she is supposed to be special). But I do think that as you say simply avoiding being alone with her in general and just "being busy" so as not to have lots of extra eye contact sounds like a good idea. Just keeping it cool and polite and leaving it there.

[jasmine215]

I'm dealing with a similar situation, and don't know how to manage it yet because she knows she can get away with it because I'm the scapegoat of my family... I'm about to write my own write-up. Argh.

[Leonor]

Here are some ideas for when you get the death stare:













...

[Cat of the Canals]

I vote for the fourth one. Disco-dancing in response to the narc "death stare" is solid gold. 🤣

[Hopeful Spine]

Now I realise I need to literally have my game face on every single time I see SIL. Guard up. Because the entire thing is one big poker game to her. I haven't wanted to believe it, really. It's been hard to accept.  I have to grieve what I had wanted... I wanted a family where ppl treat each other with dignity and respect and that is not going to happen here.

Boom!  You've nailed it.  I've been there and sort of still dealing with it. 

I completely adored my SIL.  I thought we were going to be the best of friends and we were - for a little while.  It felt mutual and I made her my maid of honor.  She happily accepted.  But she changed a little.  She seemed to sort of resent the wedding hoopla.  She was very difficult in the weeks leading up to the wedding.  The day prior she was cold towards me.  Wouldn't even go with me to get our nails done.  After the wedding she changed even more.  Less interested in chatty emails.  Not as friendly at family gatherings.  So I ask her - "are you okay?  You don't seem like yourself?"  "Stress", is what she said and I believed her.  I coddled her.  "Helped" her.  Loved her.

Then when my husband threw a special dinner for my milestone birthday she said she probably wouldn't be able to make it.  She needed to study.  Then, in the week leading up to the party,  a few mystery "health issues" made her unsure if she'd attend.  So I checked in with her to see if I had done something to upset her.  Because it all seemed personal.  Nope.  She assured me that she had a wealth of stress.
She then proceeded to list every. single. thing. that she was stressed about.  Including having to feed her dog.  At the time I felt awful that I had pressed her and was very apologetic.

So she attended the party but refused to sit next to me, which was awkward as I considered her my best friend.  At that point I knew that there was certainly a problem and it was clearly ME.  I worked hard to solve it on my own.  It took years before I really understood that the kind wonderful, talented, amazing person that I adored was faking it.  It wasn't me.  She was insecure, mean and and stubbornly damaged.  She wasn't a good person who was sometimes mean.  She is a mean person who is sometimes nice.

So now I'm low contact.  With many in their PD family.  Even when she is nice and wonderful.  Last week, out of the blue, she sent me a sweet message asking me how a specific event had gone for me.  I really, really wanted to just chat with her and tell her everything.  But I answered with a few positive sentences and moved on with my day.  Three days later at a family thing she was rude, grumpy and made some cutting remarks.  I had a pang of disappointment but I moved on.  I can't tell you HOW proud I was of myself for not falling into her trap.

Like you I wanted to be part of this fun, loving and supportive family.  It wasn't until I got emotionally healthy before I saw these behaviors and started rejecting them.  It is a loss to grieve and I wish you well on your efforts.

But here's what I don't like.  You seem to be the opposite - you started out by being secure and confident.  And now you are uncomfortable and at a loss.  This person has altered you.  You've lost your footing.  You need to turn this thing around girl and I think you are on the right path.

For instance, waiting to reply a few days after she sent the nice photo.  I'm sure YOU as a person would have loved receiving that photo and would have replied back immediately or super positively.  But now - you have to wait, and downgrade your response to a perfunctory message.  Blah - who wants to have relationships like that?  But unfortunately, you sort of have to if you are willing to keep her in your life. 

[sandpiper]

The advice about detaching is solid.
The only way to deal with people like this is to limit how much you see of them and limit the damage they can do.
As for the making faces at you, it's something that my uNPD uncle used to do. It's arrested development and a sign of emotional immaturity if they have that little impulse control and they can't function emotionally as an adult.
I'd ignore it as it's just a disordered 'bait' she's learned to lure people in.
If you really can't ignore it I'd say something like 'You don't look very well. Are you coming down with something? Perhaps you should go home and rest.'
If you deliberately misinterpret angry for sick, it might irritate her enough that she learns her game plan isn't working.
My MIL hated being told that she looked sick - she saw that as a sign of weakness.
It won't work on every narcissist but it's worth a try.
Seriously though. One thing I once said about my MIL and her death-stares - perhaps  she's just trying hard not to fart and it's coming out through her eyes.

[wisingup]

My updm does this too - the "death stare".  It is a huge trigger for me.

I will pass along the advice from our dear Woman Interrupted when I posted on it a few years ago, which was something along the lines of saying to her "What is that look on your face?  You look like you're having a stroke - do you need an ambulance?"

I'm not sure I would actually say this to my mom (not ruling it out though) but imagining saying it to her gave me a hearty laugh.

[wisingup]

Correction - I found WI's post & it was not in response to me, but to another forum member, though I took it to heart!  Here are her own words:

Your mom won't like your explanation of "busy" and may tell you she senses something MORE and give you that look that tries to bore holes into  you, like she knows you're lying and thinks she can make you crack, like you're FIVE - shake your head - nope, just busy.  It's all good.  Why are you looking at me like that?  Do you need me to call a doctor?  It looks like you're having a stroke.   

[Associate of Daniel]

Ah.  W.I. is sadly missed.

I believe in some pd cases (not all, and probably only a low percentage), demonic possession is involved.

In which case, best to not look or intertact in any way, turn our backs and literally walk away, ignoring and not acknowledging any reaction by them as we retreat.

Such people/beings are just too dangerous to our spiritual,mental and physical health.

In my case I have to be in the presence of these people on a weekly basis.

I arrive at the last minute, leave at the first, stay out of their line of sight, don't look at them and don't attempt even a "hello".

It's not worth my health and utterly fruitless to attempt any interaction with them.

I hope you can find a way to be around your SIL safely and without angst.  Actually, I don't know that either is possible with pds so it's probably a matter of working on radical acceptance.

AOD

[roughdiamonds1]

This is totally how things started out with my SIL and I always look back and wish that I had reacted differently because I think I could have nipped it in the bud and saved myself about 8 years of hell!!!

What I did was to let it go on for many months, wondering what I'd done wrong, what was wrong with her, what I could have done to deserve all the looks and sneers, was I imagining it, etc etc. i kept trying to make an extra effort to talk to her, be nice to her... I eventually asked her about it and tried to apologise for things that she thought I'd done wrong... I pursued her to try and fix it. Big mistake!!! Because in that act alone, I showed her that I was excellent narc supply potential! The looks and sneers eventually ended up in full blown abuse and psychotic rage attacks.

I'd suggest checking out the tools on this website and seeing which ones might work best for you. Grey rock might work perfectly. you could practise being super nonchalant in your responses. Like you haven't noticed that what she's doing is meant to be upsetting you. The key is definitely not to let it show that emotionally she's getting to you and not give her anything to feed off. That may take a lot of effort to begin with, and maybe you'll need to limit exposure or take many many bathroom breaks until you get good at it... I do think there might even be some merit in the idea of a lighthearted response... a breezy, 'are you okay? You have a funny look on your face', might defuse the situation enough for you to make a quick getaway without it looking like you're upset and storming off???!

Good luck!