More manipulation

[CagedBirdSinging]

Hi everyone, it's been 3 weeks since I left pdH and I just thought I'd update.

It's been a rollercoaster.. he has been alternately nasty, telling me he is 'done' with me... then love bombing me, then trying to persuade me back, using arguments such as:
- you won't be able to cope as a single parent, life will be impossible
- you can't leave me on my own here, all my friends and family are a 10 hour flight away, I have serious health problems, I might soon be on deaths door and you're leaving me all alone - I moved here for you, so you can't just abandon me (He FLUNG himself at me, like a child throwing something... CATCH!! I had no idea about his very serious mental illness, and by the time I realised he was mentally ill, he had already quit his job and moved country)
- the children will be so damaged - this is so unfair on the children - you are harming the children by leaving
- I've changed, why can't you see that? I'm sorry that you haven't been able to forgive me for what happened before (verbal and emotional abuse while I was pregnant and in those vulnerable days postpartum)
- what happened (above mentioned abuse) wasn't just my fault. Our therapist said we both need to take responsibility (this was the couples therapist, who pdH lied to and manipulated - after each session pdH used to subject me to vicious verbal attacks)

So. Yeah. What do you do with all that? Apart from ignore it, because it is clearly a load of sh*t, right?!
I'm just sick of the manipulation. At least I can see it clearly for what it is.
Forgiveness is something that I have been struggling with a little. I come from a faith background where I really believe we should forgive where possible. But pdH has shown so little real remorse, and continues to make excuses for his behaviour, which suggest to me that he's not really sorry, and that the abuse will resurface at some stage.
It's hard though. He is casting me as this vengeful, bitter person who is unable to forgive, and him as the hero who is trying to 'save' our family 

[Boat Babe]

Well done for not caving in to the love bombing and the nastiness. Keep putting one foot in front of the other and keep walking away. You are going to be just fine.

As to the forgiveness, that's something you can work on later. You don't have the energy, the time or the resources to deal with it right now. It's not a priority imo and you can, with justification, put that to one side so that you get through these very challenging weeks and months after the separation.

My personal take on forgiveness is that the other person needs to recognize and take responsibility for the hurtful action first. True contrition make forgiveness easy. But without it, I find forgiveness impossible. I can however be at peace with myself regarding  the person who has hurt me by knowing with certainty that I didn't cause the behaviour and by having some compassion, at a distance, for someone so damaged.  Hope this helps.

[blunk]

I'm so sorry you're facing this kind of manipulation, and it's great that you are able to see it for what it is.

Coming to the end of my marriage I struggled with forgiveness for many of the things that bpdxh had said and done. My lightbulb moment came from sort of a silly place, an episode of the old tv show MASH. I have told this before, so please forgive me those of you who are reading it again. In the episode a young soldier confesses to the priest that he has stolen the dog tags of his deceased friend who was set to be sent home, as a way to get out of the war. The priest tries to talk him out of it, telling him how hurtful it would be to his friends family to not know the truth of what happened to him. The young man says that it is his only way out and that he is going to do it anyway. He then asks the priest to grant him forgiveness. His reply was, I can't grant you forgiveness for a sin that you do not intend so stop committing. I sat on my couch and cried ugly tears...I realized that was what I had been trying to do for way too long, and I suspect that is what you are trying to do as well.

My x was of the mindset that as soon as he stopped the bad behavior, I should stop being hurt. That as soon as he asked for forgiveness, I should grant it. At one point I told him I was struggling with that, after he told me that he hoped I died. His response was that it wasn't that hard, either I forgave him or I didn't there was no thinking about it. I held my ground. Less than a week later he told me that I should kill myself. So had I folded and forgiven, I would have been faced with the same thing all over again. And I'm sure I would have heard something like, but you forgave me the last time.

Through time and distance I have reached a point of something like forgiveness, though I'm not sure if it is true forgiveness. I don't wish him harm, if anything I feel sorry for him. Though, I am fairly certain that even now, after more than 6 years apart, if I ran into him tomorrow he would spew the same vile filth at me. My mind understands that it comes from a place of hurt and mental illness, but the heart that once loved him says...if you ever really cared about me you wouldn't be able to bring yourself to say such horrible things to/about me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is a struggle, and you are doing great by just realizing that and doing your best to not continue to let him hurt you by seeing his behaviors for what they are.

I wish you continued strength and growth.

[notrightinthehead]

For me that says it all:
"I'm sorry that you haven't been able to forgive me for what happened before "
not I'm sorry for what I have done, no, I'm sorry that you.... there is no remorse, no insight. 
He might be worried about what he is about to loose,  conveniences,  social connectedness,  a ready emotional punching bag,  and that is all very sad for him. It is kind of you to feel sorry for him,  as long as you do it after you have protected yourself first.
I agree with the others,  one little step at a time. He is a grown man, it is time that he knows that actions have consequences. And he is to bear the consequences for his actions, not make another person responsible for them. 

[PAY]

Wow.  Every time I come on here, I see/hear more of my own story.
Cagedbirdsinging:  This is also my current reality.  And I am grateful for your sharing your experience.  It reinforces for me that this is all crazy-making and unworkable (as my therapist says).
I am not out yet.  He left the day after our mediation session to begin discussing finances to visit a friend in a warmer state. (good self care).  In the meantime, the right apartment finally materialized and I've begun the process (application, waiting for the lease).  Lease starts March 1.
It's possible he'll be back tomorrow-but he's not providing good communication around those details, although I've asked.

It's been that same roller coaster since he left and then since I told him I'd gotten an apartment.  Despite him saying a month ago that he wanted me out by April 1, he now denies it.
-is desperately trying to talk me out of it.
-is love bombing me (for the first time in the last year
-sharing fantasies of us having a private recommitment ceremony
-sending me links to other places to move to (instead of one in the same town we live in together-not my first choice but I've been looking for something suitable since last June)
-suggesting we just need to forgive each other
-all during the 2 couples therapists we saw last summer and fall and the mediator we saw to try and "resolve" our conflict, he cried about how he'd changed and now it was my time.

I've moved a number of bins out of the house and am storing with a friend.  I've packed an overnight bag with essentials (meds, changes of clothes, etc) and have it at work.  I'm prepared to leave if it gets testy.  There's never been any physical violence-just emotional abuse ~ and man can he wear me down.

Thank you all for your support of cagedbirdsinging.  You are talking to me too.

PAY

[hhaw]

CBS:

Looking back at divorcing a PD, I wish I'd had a therapist who helped me calm my nervous system, take back control if my hijacked chemistry and accept the unfathomable things happening to me....
Abuse from the person charged with protecting and caring for me and my children, as I protected him and our children.

I wish I'd had access to a good trauma informed T to show me my co dependent habits, living inside my entire being, so I could SEE how those moving parts kept swinging'round, knicking me off my feet, leaving me angry/ fearful/ unable to accept my situation as it was, so I could get
My
Nose
Off
Creative
Pebbles.  And that's how it felt at the time.  I'd get a little distance, find a little peace in a good plan to leave but the PD would talk and act in ways designed to yank me off center, and did yank me off center.  Over and over again.

Having a very bland T look at me, not with frustration, but with exasperation perhaps at my inability to grasp...
" that's what sociopaths do."

I'd say I wasted much of my energy resisting my reality....my childrens' reality, instead of SEEING it with clarity, accepting I was under siege, in danger and could not, under the current court system, keep my children safe from him.

I spun my wheels.....went over the PD's words ALOT, bc they were consistently bouncing back and Firth between exactly what he meant exactly and what he felt he needed to say to manipulate me into compliance OR doing some smallish undermining thing to sabotage my legal case and weaken my ability to access support.  When we appear unsure about divorcing the PD, if we appear torn and likely to drop the case, we are sabotaging ourselves, ime.

Accepting I'd married a dangerous sociopath and was the focus of his wrath, as he was proven to have a scorched earth policy he told me about, and I feared....
I wish a good TIT ( trauma informed T) had looked me in the eye once or twice a week, for an hour, and explained what was happening to my biology, how to take control if it and how to get my nose off all the upsetting pebbles my stbx was lobbing at my head, fig. so I could gain some perspective and SEE the entire field with all the pebbles, trees and people.

We go in and out of accepting these kinds of dreadful truths. Our children suffering, no matter what we do.  We have no good options and won't, according to our present measure stick, for a very long time.
We care what other people think...what the PD thinks.
We have no ability to guard against the PD chaos, which weakens our ability to be responsive to our children, legal case and self care.

The reality is, you're THE good enough parent.  You're going to have to be a rock....calm, consistent, explaining tough situations in age appropriate ways to children who SEE themselves as 50% mom and 50% dad.  Wow.  No pressure.

All this while PD dad sabotages, undermines and perhaps endangers his own children in an effort to gain your compliance.

The only thing you can control in this...what you say and do.

Finding a good TIT....
Limiting the PD's access to you...go to emails and texts you look at when feeling solid and calm.
Get the kids into T with someone who can help you explain to the children.  I found a children's crisis management T very helpful to form a narrative....
"Daddy was sick"  and it explained a lot.  My 5 and 7yo children understood that and it shut down messages the kids might have gotten.

I had a daddy box for the kids to put all those gifts kids make in school for their daddy.  They decorated it.  We put his pictures on it.  The kids never had to worry in class about whatever they were doing....bc there was a plan in place they understood for the things they couldn't hand to him personally.  In your case, the box would hold items short term if your stbx continues to be intermittently absent or returns to his home Country, maybe.  Maybe not.

I guess I'm saying, you won't have any good choices regarding the PD.  Look at the best choices, and fearlessly select from them, build your strength, guard it like a mama dragon and model how to navigate stress, do everything you can, put the story on the shelf and BE present in the moment with your children.

My coping strategy, during the divorce, was to constantly worry worry worry.  I modeled that for my children.  I showed them how to survive a siege, and my oldest really missed her carefree, laughing, fun mommy.  A lot.  It harmed our relationship and broke my heart when I did manage to smile and laugh and dance and oldest dd's eyes lit up and she felt safe and happy again, but just for a moment.

You have the chance to learn how to do everything you can, release expectation and live your best life.....to model that as alternative coping strategy for your children.

Show them what healthy boundaries, consequences, boundary enforcement and healthy adult connection CAN be.

Right now your children understand your current marriage as "normal."  That's what their nervous systems believe.

You can find serenity in this storm and I pray you do.

I'm tapping this out on a phone, with one thumb, so not editing.  I'll leave you with this...
Do your best to be unrelentingly kind to yourself, as you can, as often as you can.  Treat yourself as you would a young child and pay attention to your thoughts and physical pains.  Tend to them.  Give yourself permission to care for yourself daily.  Check in with yourself.  Do a body scan.  Breathe calmly.  Breathe mindfully.  Explain what you're doing if the kids ask.

Learn to accept hard truths and to drop expectation.  That way you aren't wasting energy.  You're doing what needs done, and getting in with self care and being really present with your children.  Some day you'll, hopefully, understand you avoided the regret of missing really looking into your children's eyes, connecting with them and building forts in the rain.....whatever your favorite things to do with them....try not to stop doing them bc of the PD and worry.

And dance....listen to happy music and dance your kids around the kitchen regularly.  They know when you're ok and when you aren't.  Even if their dad's not ok....you can be ok.  You can make peace with that.....accept it without trying to change it or NEEDING to change it before you're ok.

The same with your children....you can still be ok, even when they're struggling and in pain.  Remaining calm means you can be more responsive to their needs...not less.  More creative and effective.

Get the PD's voice out of your life.....everything written, copied, filed and only read when you choose.

Breathe deeply....calmly when you feel anxiety taking over.  You have to get calm to access problem solving skills.

You're your best resource.  Take care of yourself without reservation.  I give you full permission to do so.  It's imperative for so many reasons.

[Rose1]

Excellent advice above. Talk is cheap and we get lots of it. Actions count so observe the actions if you want to know whats going on. Is he walking the talk? It appears not.

Forgiveness comes with time. It is not forgive and forget, its not forgive and go back to abuse. It can be forgive and forget if that's appropriate  but it can also be slowly coming to terms with reality and being able to let it go. Recognising that they cannot do any better but you are no longer obliged to be the target. I found even some compassion for a horrible upbringing but no desire to repeat being the target.  In the process I also found I needed to forgive myself for ignoring red flags and getting into the relationship in the first place and giving my kids an awful father.

It took a long time and effort but means I am reasonably peaceful about it now. It would not be the case if ex was still around daily inflicting new issues to forgive.

I found a pd has a different idea about forgiveness. I can do and say whatever I like and when I've gotten over it you need to as well so we can get back to status quo and I am not inconvenienced. Nowhere does it include change in behaviour unless they have a real reason to change. That happens but its rare and is backed up with actual consistent actions that last for years not days. It requires a lot of work and probably outside help, not a drinking session with friends. Most pds aren't willing and like to believe everyone else is the problem. 

So everything they say and do and the way they bounce back and forth between forgive me and you will pay for this is an attempt to get back what they are losing. Its not an attempt to work on the relationship or on their issues. Payback if you fall for it is a very real possibility.

It really then becomes a case of forgiving your enemy because that is what they become.  Perhaps because of how they were brought up and they really know no better. But that takes time and right now you're needing to take care of yourself and children and not get sucked back into a dangerous situation.

Take care

[Poison Ivy]

When we were married, my husband did therapy several times. During one of his episodes of doing therapy, he said to me that his therapist had reminded him (and therefore he was reminding me) that he couldn't change his past behavior but he could change his present and future behavior, something along the lines of "Today is the first day of the rest of your life." I said, "Fine. Change your behavior." He didn't.

[hhaw]

Forgiving someone doesn't mean one allows the PD to have continued access to the one who forgives. 

The OD typically equates forgiveness with their ability to continue theur abuse.

I think a deeply abiding desire for thePD's understanding and approval complicate matters....codepedence was definitely a factor affecting  my life with and w/o PD. 

[Boat Babe]

I think a deeply abiding desire for thePD's understanding and approval complicate matters....codepedence was definitely a factor affecting  my life with and w/o PD.

Oh, that did hit home. I do that.  Oh sh*t.

[CagedBirdSinging]

Thanks everyone. Lots of food for thought here. I really appreciate all your messages of support.

I wish I had the option to go nc - but I can't because we have kids. H is mentally unstable. I think it's more than just pd. He is actually insane, deluded, of unsound mind. He frequently threatens suicide and talks about 'dark thoughts.' So I never leave the kids on their own with him. He doesn't have any friends or family who could supervise, so that means I have to supervise his visitation. I try to keep out of his way, staying in a different room when he is here, but it's not easy.

He is insisting on seeing the kids nearly every day, and I am afraid to challenge him on this because he might take me to court, and he could easily fool the judge and end up being awarded unsupervised access and overnights. That would be my worst nightmare. I feel the children would be at very real risk or neglect, along with emotional and possibly physical harm. A few months ago, when H thought he had covid, and thought he was going to die, he kept talking about how it was unfair he would miss out on his family if he died, and how he should be able to take us with him. I have all this recorded, so hopefully it would stand up in court, but I'm just scared that it would not be enough evidence, and he could be awarded unsupervised access.

So.. that's why I am having to see more of him than I would like. I just need to focus on boundaries, not allowing him to use his visitation as an opportunity to manipulate me.

The forgiveness thing was more of an aside.. it's something I will get to eventually. 'Why Does He Do That' has a good section on this - Buncroft talks about how the abuser has to stop demanding forgiveness, and needs to stop whining and blaming his partner!!

[Stillirise]

In so sorry you are in such a difficult situation.  IME, the pretending to be an involved and wonderful father waned fairly quickly—although it seemed like forever at the time! When he realized his visits were no longer going to provide him any supply from me, his visits tapered off fairly quickly.  I slowly started building more boundaries around scheduling visits, length of them, etc.  I found his threats about challenging me on custody to be just that...empty threats.   I've also made it pretty easy for him to shirk his parental responsibilities.

I remember rehearsing my GR and MC strategies ahead of time, when I knew I'd have to see him.  It felt a little crazy, and fake at first, but it worked.

Hang in there!!

[hhaw]

Document like your children's safety depends on it, CBS.

All the contact with stbx PD costs you emotional and physical stress.  Make it  count. 

[1footouttadefog]

If someone puts your hand in a hot surface ir steps in your foot you can forgive them later.

If they hold your hand diwn ir continue to stand in your foot you cannot forgive because its still happening.  Of you habe the ability to leave the stove or get your foot out from under theirs, you do so whether they apologize or not.

Standing there and taking more is how an abuser defines forgiveness.  Leaving and forgiving after its down is how normal folks define forgiveness.

I have forgiven my spouse forbmany things despite his not owning them, but I have boundaries against more abuse.  He thinks my not taking his crap is me not being forgiving of past crap when I assert my boundaries and call him out.

[Rose1]

 

[2nice]

After I left I thought that ex was suicidal. I had received a weird message. I asked police to go there. He not only never did it again he made fun of me for doing that.

Also RE parental responsibilities. They aren't copers. U need to be very self sacrificing to be a parent. Say no more