Putting her first again

[Pepin]

It may seem petty but a cultural event is coming up for us and all DH can think about is making something for PDmil and her sister.  He certainly isn't doing anything for the kids and I.  Which I find to be confusing because our kids are half of DH's race and culture....it is like they don't matter.  Nor do I seem to matter either.  DH seems so absorbed in his side of the family and their culture that he is blind to his own FOC and how we fit in.  I know it is a filial piety thing but, I am so sick of it being an issue with DH.  I don't know why he is either blind or scared to set boundaries. 

[Cat of the Canals]

I'm so sorry, Pepin. My husband is thankfully Out of the FOG, but there are people on both sides of our family (my mother is also PD) that are not. It's shocking to see the way they will bend over backwards for our PD relatives, never seeming to notice or wonder why the relationship is a one way street.

[Pepin]

Since it seems to be so difficult for my husband to consider his family first when it comes to tradition, how can I guide him?  I need to be able to set a boundary with him when he starts thinking of PDmil before his family during certain important events or traditions.  I do agree that on some level she needs to be included; but her inclusion needs to remain periphery to our family.  She actually does the same so there is no excuse really.  Keeps her kids close and everyone else is held back with a stick more or less.  Why can't I demand the same?  It is because DH is confused about his role.

I have taken the reigns and we are having a nice meal tonight just for our FOC.  Tomorrow will likely be the same.  I wish though that there would be some tradition that he would like to share or even start.  This is what I struggle with understanding; this deferring to the older generation rather than creating our own traditions.  DH is the only one of his siblings to behave this way....the others merely live their own lives on their terms.  DH was the most heavily parentified when he was younger and I am very sorry for him.  I was also parentified.  We are both children of immigrant parents.  The difference between him and I though is that I don't allow the word immigrant to describe confusing or unacceptable behavior while he does.  Behavior is what it is regardless of cultural norm.  And I feel that it is extremely important to set boundaries around these damaging and oppressive ways of treating each other.  I want to be able to call out hurtful behaviors without fear of retaliation. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hey Pepin, I just want to say I relate to you. I see myself more in the position of one of your daughters when you write about your situation with your husband and MIL. My uNF was not enmeshed to the degree of your husband, but bad enough. My grandmother regarded my mother with much the same contempt your MIL has for you, as an interloper with her SON/surrogate husband because her actual husband was an abusive drunk. The cultural excuse was often given. It's crap. It's actually insulting to that culture to identify it with abusive and unhealthy patterns.

But wishing we could identify hurtful behaviors without fear of retaliation... Well don't we all? If you had the kind of family that would allow that, they probably wouldn't be the sort of family where you had to deal with those behaviors in the first place.

I hesitate to ask this, but is there an element of sexism at play? If I recall correctly you have two daughters. I come from a family of all daughters, and my grandparents had absolutely no use for us. My father's sister was definitely the SG child, only the son mattered. They enabled her drug abuse and risky sexual behavior, but all the praise and expectations and "hope for the family" was with my father.

[Leonor]

Hi Pepin,

I think this is a truth right here:

"I want to be able to call out hurtful behaviors without fear of retaliation"

That's really what is holding you in this painful vise: to be able to speak your truth without feeling afraid.

It's true that your mil is abusive and it's true that your husband is codependent on her because he is afraid of her, and that you have grown to be codependent on them both, because if only mil would stop being abusive or dh would stop being codependent on her, you would feel safe in yourself.

That is the definition of codependency, and it's not a horrible insult or judgement of your mental health (after all, it is your own healthy point of view that's allowing you to see the dysfunction and be painfully aware of how it is damaging your marriage.)

I generally think Dr Phil is a charlatan hack, but he said something once that has helped me in times of foggy fear and confusion. The idea is that trust is more about you (I can handle whatever this person throws my way) than someone else (this person will never do or say anything that might hurt me.) It's about reclaiming your own power in relationship rather than handling it over to someone else.

They're not going to change, Pepin. Ever. Why should they? She's content because she is controlling her son, he's feeling relief because he is placating her, and you are shuffling along making it possible for them to maintain the illusion of a big happy family ...
on her terms!

It's not going to end when she passes either, because then she will be enshrined in her son's memory as the Ideal of Womanhood and you will never live up to that Ideal, because it is a delusion constructed by his wounded psyche and not any grounding in reality.

The only way anything changes for you  is for you to risk trusting yourself. To trust that yes, your truth matters, your experience matters, that you matter. To trust that you are able to articulate and speak this truth to your dh just to hear yourself say it. And to trust that no matter how he responds, from breaking down in tears of gratitude and pledging to go to marital therapy with you to deciding that you are a crazy shrew he must divorce tomorrow, or whatever happy fantasy or tragic nightmare your anxiety can dream up -- you can handle it.

You don't have to start with a big declaration (which is just as driven by anxiety at this point) but with little trust statements you say to yourself. "I deserve to create a tradition in my family" or "I am strong enough to endure a silent treatment from my h" or whatever positive, Pepin-affirming statement you can make. Whenever the "But! But!" comes up in your head, that's exactly where the healing begins: "But he will stop talking to me!" "Yes, that's likely. But he has stopped talking to me before, and I was strong enough to handle it." "But I'm afraid" "Yes, I'm afraid and it's uncomfortable. But I am strong enough to handle feeling afraid" "But this is the same feeling I had when I was an abused little girl" "Yes, and that abused little girl was strong enough to get me here, and I'm strong enough to take care of her now."

You are strong, Pepin. You can trust yourself.

[Pepin]

The cultural excuse was often given. It's crap. It's actually insulting to that culture to identify it with abusive and unhealthy patterns.

I hesitate to ask this, but is there an element of sexism at play? If I recall correctly you have two daughters. I come from a family of all daughters, and my grandparents had absolutely no use for us. My father's sister was definitely the SG child, only the son mattered. They enabled her drug abuse and risky sexual behavior, but all the praise and expectations and "hope for the family" was with my father.

I agree that it is insulting to play the cultural identity card because it sadly defines an entire culture as toxic when this simply is not true.

Is there sexism at play?  Absolutely.  100%.  And this sickens me.  Typically it is the firstborn males that are the favorite.  In DH's case, he is the 2nd son and is the favorite because of what he can do.  His sisters have no major role as they are considered to be part of their husband's family now.  This is unacceptable to me as a mother of daughters and I would never allow it nor would I consider my daughters to be "property" through marriage; their spouse's family would not "own" my daughters over my dead body.

These are and continue to be very serious issues for me and I am really surprised that DH doesn't get it.  We have talked about it here and there with regards to his family but not about our daughters.  It sickens him how his sisters are treated by their husbands and their husbands families.  Yet he can't see it with regards to how his mother plays it too. 

My daughters and literally every other grandkid in the family (ok cousins of DH, too) have realized that PDmil ranks them by gender, age, height, weight....ridiculous in my opinion.  I find it sad that a woman like her, short in size and a little pudgy, would rank others in the family.  At the moment, she is the shortest, so short that sometimes she looks like a doll when she sits on a sofa.  How could she treat people this way when no doubt I am sure that her height has been a topic of conversation?  Wouldn't that make her uncomfortable?  Oh right.  It was done to her so she is going to pay it forward to make herself feel better. 

And the other thing that confuses me is this ranking by gender?  The oldest firstborn male grandson (born to DH's brother) gets all the attention from PDmil: new shoes, new phone, tuition payments, etc. whatever she thinks he should have.  She doesn't do this for his younger sister or anyone of the other male grandkids.  Yeah the other grandkids get small amounts of cash here and there....as if it is a payment for time spent with her.  Ugh.  So gross.  But hey, that is a part of her culture and what she thinks is the right thing to do even though it is outdated and damaging.  She is going to keep going with that garbage for whatever her reason is: because she likes the attention good or bad.  She is an emotionally stunted woman, perpetuating immature ideals that no one else seems to relate too.  But, she gets away with it by adding in that waif behavior.  She plays her cards strong because she can.

[Hilltop]

Pepin, I had a light bulb moment about culture after reading many of your posts, it was something Leonor wrote.  I have for many years considered my in-laws attitudes to do with their culture.  I suppose I see so many of their family friends act the same way that I saw it as a cultural way to be.  I saw some behaviours as PD but excused a lot away as culture.

I gave this some thought and realised that its nothing to do with culture, its simply PD behaviour and why do so many friends of in the in-laws act the same way, because PD's seem to have friendships with other PD's. 

I now see that some of my friends have really loving and close relationships with their parents but I don't see this as cultural I see this as they have loving and warm relationships and enjoy spending time with their families.  Other friends that aren't close I don't see it as cultural, I just think that there are issues.  So why do I look at my in-laws and see it as cultural?  I was told by them for so many years that its cultural, this is the way their culture is.  Now I see how it is used to excuse bad behaviour, they don't see it in themselves as they use this excuse over and over.  Because they are from another country that I knew nothing about I believed what they told me.

Your MIL's behaviour is atrocious and I would try to protect your girls from that as much as you can and I'm sure you are doing that already.  Ranking your girls is so gross.  I can't believe she continues with this.  Thank goodness you are changing the dynamics and putting a stop to this outdated treatment.

[Pepin]

Other friends that aren't close I don't see it as cultural, I just think that there are issues.  So why do I look at my in-laws and see it as cultural?  I was told by them for so many years that its cultural, this is the way their culture is.  Now I see how it is used to excuse bad behaviour, they don't see it in themselves as they use this excuse over and over.  Because they are from another country that I knew nothing about I believed what they told me.

Absolutely yes!  For so long I also believed that it was cultural.  I believed what DH told me:  That is who she is; she doesn't know any better.

The problem that I have with his excuses is that after having lived here in the US for decades, how is it that just by being among other people not of her race, how could she "want" to continue these damaging behaviors?  It isn't like anyone else is keeping tally of what she does and doesn't do with regards to keeping up cultural practices.  I think that many people of her culture have come here to shed those damaging ways yet she wants to hold onto them.  And that is where DH comes in with the excuses for her.  No one has ever called her out.  She really, really is stuck in her ways right now, whereas before she was a little more lax about it.  Something about growing old and having to reclaim things that were discarded in the past....I don't understand this....but since she falls into that PD spectrum, it makes sense, sadly.

Myself, while I am of one race, I am a cultural mutt.  I don't have any single culture to identify with and being married to someone like DH, this has become increasingly difficult as our marriage has progressed.  It was not an issue when we met, dated or got married.  All of this happened after we had kids and after FIL passed away.  I always suspected that something was off with PDmil but that DH had it under control with good boundaries.  After FIL passed away, he caved and let PDmil trample all over him.  She has successfully divided and conquered the entire extended family.  There isn't seemingly anyone that has a close relationship with her on what I would consider good terms.  Everything with her is "task" related.  Some of that is culture....but again, does it really define a culture to behave this way and is it good?  If it isn't good, why keep doing it?  Ah, as DH says: because she doesn't know any better.  Wrong.  She does know better.  It is just that this is her way of having control when she can't get it anywhere else.

And you are right, her behavior towards all the grand kids is atrocious.  It offends me to carry on this practice of gender and age ranking.    Even her estate plans include this.     And this is how to divide a family.