addiction qestion

[foggydude]

I've been speaking w my unepdgf again wanting to work things out. She is extremely spiritual. Veganism is part of the platform. She was insulted that, a few days after she provided me with her needs and ideals, I gave her mine. Mine included eating what I want. She replied the next day with how insulted she felt hen i mentioned in the future I would cook vegan food for her and then add fish for myself. She feels I have a taste addiction or taste attachment to meat. That is represents something else...she asks, what is meat replacing in myself that really need?

I am clear I support and have respect for how she wants to eat and live, and that it's not the way I want to live. I tried it and hated myself for depriving myself of something normal to me.

I also drink diet soda...she says I don't love myself or I wouldn' put that poison into my body so that I can live longer for her.

She says that I don't have enough knowledge to speak intelligently about such things with her. She seems to feel superior.

When I stated that she and her guru said the Dalai Lama didn't really "get it" when I told her he eats meat. She did not recall this. THen I told her that even the woman she speaks of more highly than any other , one of mentors has converted back to meat eating, she also said that she doesn't understand the whole truth,

WHile I respect both vegans and vegetarians alike, I think her positions are ridiculous and about control but I am writing for opinions. Can you have an addiction to meat of taste attachment?

She is wanting me to be a total participant in her spiritual world, values and beliefs. I have my own. I don't want her to adopt mine and am fine with hers. Of course, this is only a part of them.

[Poison Ivy]

I have a good friend who is a vegan, and her immediate family members are vegans, too. I like her a lot, but I try not to talk with her about food and nutrition. She is fanatical about the topics. I respect her views, and I understand the environmental and animal-loving reasons for her food-belief system, but she and her family also seem to think that being vegans is a guarantee of good health, and I know that is not true.

[Cascade]

I've never heard of a person having an addiction for meat, though you can crave meat. I don't think she should try to control what you eat and drink.

[notrightinthehead]

My husband was brought up on a strict vegetarian diet and he and his whole family believe themselves to be superior human beings because of their diet.  When I met him I had lived on a vegetarian diet for many years by choice. This did not make me any more spiritual, but it was a great way to control the weight. Allegedly Hitler also was a vegetarian. He also considered himself to be superior to others.
While I understand the attraction of feeling superior to others because of something I do or don't do, eat or don't eat, look or don't look like - I consider this a fallacy and unhealthy.  It leads to fanatism and the imposition of one's own preference on others. It does not show respect for differing opinions, nor does it allow for growth. With which right can one person think her own preferences to be better than other's?
I agree with your approach. You respect her dietary choices and you decide for yourself what you eat.  Now you could ask her to respect your choices.  And decide what you do if she cannot. Just remember, you cannot change her, only she can. All you can do is decide what you do as a response to her behaviour.

[Boat Babe]

This is all a bit precious on her part (PD or no PD). Half the world is malnourished or starving and overprivileged Westerners are waving their food fad flags around as a form of virtue signalling. (I am not talking about people who have a real food allergy). I fully respect people who don't eat meat or dairy for ethical reasons but your exgf goes way beyond all that. It's a whiney control issue, full stop.

[Lauren17]

I cannot comment on veganism or on addictions as I have no experience with them.
When I was reading your post, it reminded me of a phenomenon that I can't remember the name of. Bear with me, here.
The more you challenge the PDs belief, the more they defend it. And the more thy defend it, the more that belief gets cemented in their brain as truth.  It becomes a spiral. 
I had a similar situation, where uBPDh was cold and was moving himself further and further away from the heat source. We both have advanced, science based degrees. I tried to convince him that insulating himself against the heat was counterproductive. I even asked him if he'd stopped believing in physics.  He dug his heals in, just as your gf did.
I finally recognized the pattern. I can't change his mind, but I can change (end) the argument by adjusting my behavior.
I think you did exactly right. State your boundary. "I will cook vegan for you and fish for me" and then stick to it with lots of medium chill.

[foggydude]

Thank you all so much for your responses.

Yes, this isna control thing. She is also gluten free which makes meals together tuff. While I did do vegetarian w her for 1 year, we ate mostly vegan cause it was easier. Just what she wanted.

The control goes much deeper. Waking at a specific time to meditate. I like to do that at night and designed my life to sleep in. We had near 0 morning cuddle time. At night it was amazing tho.

No comedy clubs (unless they're rated G) , juicing, fruit smoothies, why I shouldn't have certain thoughts and that I should follow the bagavadgita like she and her people do.

She actually wants me to believe near 100% of what she does so we can be unified. When this happens in R, one person always loses themselves. It's a sacrifice. I had near nothing left of ME.

When and how much to work, that we needed to do yoga together (shes an instructor), the list goes on.

She needs to much from me yet I want us back together, badly.

I have more power here than I am aware of.

It was a one sided relationship but I wanted her. This is MY codependency. These people have an amazing way with language to make codependents take responsibility for their problems, emotions and feelings too. Its manipulative and I'm working very hard on boundaries now.

Believe it or not, I love this woman. She brought a quality of love and affection to me that I crave and miss terribly. Id love to make it work.

She told me her ideal life and didnt ask about mine. When I did, she was outraged that I would even suggest we could own a home where there was any for of meat or that my friends would come over for a drink now and again.

She just can't live in my "mainstream" world at all because shes done that and it didn't work. Well it works fine for me ..

I bring much to the R that a Yogi wouldn't. I make the $ , add dancing, a good business sense, drive, great sex and much more.

If we able to resurrect this, I won't give in on the food boundary, this I already know. She is seeing something new in me. Usually I just gave but not this time.

[all4peace]

What I'm hearing is a story of two adults with different ways of seeing the world and living in it, both equally valid.  If two adults decide to share a life together, there needs to be a respect for the other point of view at a minimum, and maybe even some effort to find some middle ground.

If she cannot live with someone who eats meat, that's a decision she needs to make.
If you cannot live with someone who tries constantly to convert you to her way of living, that's a decision you need to make.

This sounds really difficult. It sounds like you're really aware of who you are, who she is, and what each of you need.  A major part of healthy adult relationship is understanding that there is You, Me and We. To me, it sounds like your partner is attempting to make you into a version of herself.  It sounds like a painful decision ahead of you both. My best to you.

[BeautifulCrazy]

Foggy, here's what I am interpreting, reading your posts:

-You love and accept her for who she is.
-She does not accept who you are.
-Her love is conditional.
-You want this relationship to work.
-She is ambivalent, unless you let her control the minutia of your life.

It seems impossible, to me anyway, for all of these things to coexist in a healthy relationship.
If someone you loved described themselves in this scenario, what would you think? What would you say to them?
You sound like a wonderfully compassionate and loving and accepting person. I think you deserve someone who encourages you to be your best self, but still loves you exactly the way you are.

I feel for you in your struggle to keep / leave this relationship. I have been in a similar situation.

Sending you strength and encouragement!

~BC

[1footouttadefog]

I could scientifically argue the vegan versus vegetarian versis ovolactoveg. Vs omnivour topics, but its a matternof choice and beliefs in the end.  People are willing to adapt for the sake of spirituality and that makes us human.

Ot sounds like you two are mismatched on some important topics. I agree thst there is likely a healthy dose of superiority and comtrol in the equation.

I'll just say there are huge red flags and its not vegan ism but rather that at her core is a need to be superior and to control.  She may even change religions and diets over time but these will remain.

[BettyGray]

Hmmmmmm.

Much to unpack here.

Second, your body is your body. I understand her wanting you to be healthy. I understand the environmental effects of eating too much meat, and yes, as a civilization we should probably eat much less of it. BUT - she has no right to tell you what to eat, much less chastise you for not doing as she says.

Another BUT - she's right about the diet soda. Sorry. I know you like the taste of it, but it's bad, bad, bad:

https://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20170505/diet-soda-health-risks

You have to wonder about these corporations who knowingly put poison in their products.

Anyway, it seems she views you as an extension of herself. Anyone who expects you to do as they say or wants to dictate your personal choices is not a loving partner. It's one thing if you had been to your doctor and they told you to stop eating and drinking these things because your health is in jeopardy. A professional opinion is different than a personal one. That being said,
humans have been eating meat for thousands and thousands of years. It didn't suddenly get unhealthy. Our bodies are designed to NEED (not want, need) meat proteins. It's fine to try substitutes, but there is no substitute. It takes a lot of other types of proteins to make up for the vitamins and minerals we get from eating meat.

Now, I don't know what KIND of meat you're eating or how often. IF you're downing McDonald's hamburgers on the regular, that's not good at all. I do not think a high quality cut of organic Kobe beef is a death sentence. But restricting it to once a week is probably best. And better if you cook it yourself and serve with vegetables.

Addiction? To meat? Sorry, I had to pick myself up off the floor I fell out of my chair laughing so hard.

Spiritual beliefs are highly personal. It's great if you and your partner see eye to eye in this regard, but you can still have a healthy relationship even if your spiritual beliefs are somewhat different. It can't happen without respect, though. It's a two way street. But it seems like she's treating it as a one way - her way.

Not to mention - you offered to cook two separate meals!! That's a huge hassle for you, but it is an act of love. At least you're trying. She doesn't seem to appreciate that. And you gave up meat for a YEAR!! What the hell does this woman want from you?

She says that I don't have enough knowledge to speak intelligently about such things with her. She seems to feel superior.

That's a putdown, plain and simple. You don't need to be an expert to understand. She is invalidating you to get you to do what she wants.

Now, the thing that concerns me most about your posting is your desire to return to a destructive relationship. You may be addicted to HER. You may be addicted to being in a relationship with someone who is, emotionally, always out of reach. You have to ask yourself what it is YOU are getting out of the relationship and does she meet your emotional needs? No matter how you feel today, if you're committed to being in this with her long term, you need to be verrrrrrry honest with yourself. Because in 10 or 20 years, when this pattern of behavior hasn't stopped, it's gotten more controlling - it feels a whole lot worse. 

What was your childhood like? Were you invalidated a lot? Was there a parent or loved one who was cold to you?

I learned early on in my therapy that the way my family treated me was not love. I was young at the time and wondering why I was getting into relationships with men who undervalued me, were distant, or rejected me wholecloth. My T pointed out that it was because I had a warped definition of "love." What we may think is love may not be. Abused children think they're loved by their parents. Perhaps the abuser rages one day, love bombs the next. Either way, you never know which is which. You're constantly off balance. It's easy to mistake other things for love.

Controlling behavior is not loving behavior. Withholding emotional support is not loving behavior. Undermining, put downs, preaching...

No comedy clubs (unless they're rated G) , juicing, fruit smoothies, why I shouldn't have certain thoughts and that I should follow the bagavadgita like she and her people do.

I'm sorry, but the G-rated comedy thing is just...odd. Some comedians do ok with this - Jim Gaffigan is pretty G-rated. Seinfeld and Pete Holmes are PG most of the time. You don't have to go to completely "blue" comedy shows, but surely there are some good comedians in the middle.

The fact that you are aware the codependency drives your attraction to her is a good step. Being in a relationships is about compromise. She wants you up early in the morning to meditate? OK, then she has to do something for you. She has to try it with you at night some of the time. It's only fair.

I am not saying you are doing anything wrong. But your intuition is trying to speak to you - quietly at first, but now it is screaming. Unless you get what you need from a relationship, and feel safe stating those needs to your partner, you will always feel unfulfilled and lonely.

Believe it or not, I love this woman. She brought a quality of love and affection to me that I crave and miss terribly. Id love to make it work. She told me her ideal life and didnt ask about mine. When I did, she was outraged that I would even suggest we could own a home where there was any for of meat or that my friends would come over for a drink now and again.

Hoo-boy.

I know this is hard. You're torn between what feels good (although it sounds like it is usually fleeting) and what is best for you and your mental health. Great sex is wonderful, but you can have great sex and affectionate moments with someone who respects you.  It doesn't sounds like she respects you. If you don't get back together with her, I certainly would not encourage you to get back into a relationship with a new person right away. You could be leaving the frying pan and jumping into the fire with a similar person. The best thing you can do for yourself (all for you, noone else) is figure out what it is inside you that veers toward women like her. Until you figure that out you will probably end up with another person like her.

Codependent people have an almost impossible time putting their needs first. Not talking selfish needs. I'm talking self-regard, standing up for ourselves, understanding what we will and won't tolerate from other people, and knowing when to walk away from those who don't know how to love us back. Perhaps you might list what your emotional needs are and see how many of them she fulfills.

Do you feel safe with her? That is the question.

[foggydude]

I want to thank you all again for even further responding so deeply with such caring details. I felt so much love reading each one of these, over and over.
Your observations have added so much to my analysis and each one has helped me tremendously!

Beautifulcrazy:
You love and accept her for who she is.
-She does not accept who you are.
thank you for pointing this out. While you'd think this was blatant, it wasn't so engrained in me until I saw this in someone else's writing.

all4peace, very succinct yet powerful ditty for me to recognize. No one is wrong here. I've compromised yet she hasn't.

Lauren17:
The more you challenge the PDs belief, the more they defend it.
This was an important revelation for me to understand.

Boat Babe:
It's a whiney control issue, full stop.
You just get things so well. TY. yes, you are correct.

1footouttadefog
not vegan ism but rather that at her core is a need to be superior and to control.
This is spot on. It's not about food, diet or religion, it's about control. You are so right. She may change these things, but her need for control is at the root of the issue and it was getting worse now, forget about 10 years from now!

And everyone else who made mention for the superiority complex many people bring out. Of course not all, but it feels wring...glib.



And Liz1018....thank you so very much for all of the time you spent on my issues....how selfless this was and I appreciate this.
Too much to quote on your post but you too brought up new things for me. Meat addictions lol....how ridic! This is how far I've let myself become brainwashed. How silly that I would ask such a question.
No I rarely eat fast food. I ate none of it when I was with her. Fritos would throw her into a tailspin.
Everything you wrote is so profound, ty.
I've been sacrificing since day 1...she barely compromises.

I've been in a state of depression for 4 months despite being on vacation for near 2 of those months. I've worked on myself over and over.
Speaking with her again recently has really helped me heal I must say.

I recognize she is usually in the victim mode and I the assigned rescuer. I've now abandoned the caretaker role and she has stepped aside.
She insisted I hear her ideal situation with me w/o response and WITH complete validation but she never asked about my ideal situation in relationship with her. 2 Days later, I just told her. She was so upset about hearing it; she said it was the same old stuff but even MORE from me. Then she wanted to talk again as long as I'd agree to offer repair, validation, support, no argument, understanding etc. I held a boundary and said NO., that while i had forgiven her for throwing water on me several times, breaking my things and slapping me repeatedly on 6 different occasions, I  had nnot forgotten and I woul need many months of repair prior to me repairing my relationship objectives with her.

She went further to say that I have anger issues (because I do get angry when she pushes me too far to break me down she she feels superior) and she could help me because she has been doing this her whole life....and if she were to "work" with me I'd have to give her 100% respect and learn from her as when I didn't learn from her, things didn't work out. It sounded higher than mighty like she wants to be my teacher, mentor or God. TO this i took offense and I again held a respectful boundary,
Eventually, I asked her what exactly she meant by "work" with me.....as if i have some sort of problem. I said I offered to find us another therapist to work on our arguing issues...but SHE wants to repair it and it will be her way because I am the problem!

I saw this as an attempt for her to again take the victim role but I didn't fall for it. I took a firm stance and I've not hear from her since. My guess is that I won't hear from her for a while if ever again.  Yes, I am no longer her caretaker!

This sent a powerful message to me about all the thing in this string....control, domination, victimization and my role as the rescuer.

This time I feel empowered...like my self esteem rose a notch.

Thank you all once again for the support.

[JollyJazz]

Hi Foggy,

I'm sorry to hear that she is criticising you and trying to control how you eat (again). It's not right and I'm sorry that she is treating you that way. Good on you for being aware and keeping those boundaries 

I am vegan and it is a very personal and private issue to me, I would never tell someone how to eat. I have also experienced some very nasty behavior and unwanted comments / advice because I eat differently. I believe it is a personal choice, and we should all have the right to eat as we want without being put down and told what to do.

[moglow]

Moderation note:

Please restrict comments going forward to [presumed] PD behavior and possible responses to it. We're not here to weigh in on people's choices around their eating. Be who you are and say how you feel, but know that judgements and generalizations of others - whether PD or not - will be removed and dealt with as guideline violations.

Remember and adhere to our board guidelines. Handy dandy link here:  https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=30.0], and treat others as you'd like to be treated. Carry on!

[moglow]

Foggydude, you might want to look at her behavior and treatment of you as a whole, rather than trying to break it off into semi-manageable understandable pieces. Try to see the forest, not just some of the trees, if that makes sense. Yes, the trees make up the forest, but overall, is/was this a happy fulfilling relationship for the most part or does the balance swing more in the other direction?

Is this the same person you referred to about a month ago, where physical altercations appeared to be the norm for her? [https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=87154.msg747814#msg747814] It sounds volatile and controlling and demeaning and honestly unhealthy to me. Is that love? I sure hope not, for your sake.
You don't have to explain or justify your choices here and you never will, but I do hope you can take a step back and look at the big picture.

[Poison Ivy]

Great advice, moglow.

[foggydude]

Is this the same person you referred to about a month ago, where physical altercations appeared to be the norm for her? [https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=87154.msg747814#msg747814] It sounds volatile and controlling and demeaning and honestly unhealthy to me. Is that love? I sure hope not, for your sake.
You don't have to explain or justify your choices here and you never will, but I do hope you can take a step back and look at the big picture.
[/quote]


Yea its the same woman. This is great advice and I'm working on myself so hard rn. Therapists, 12 step ACA , coach, vids, reading etc.
I'm struggling to assign an overall value to the relationship becaise so much of our R worked... They day to day stuff worked yet the cost was high. So high I couldn't leave until the violence escalated.
Thats a deal breaker for most and I know I dont leave toxic relationships soon enough .
Yes I still want her but with my terms. She wants to start as friends but I wont w/o solving the big ticket items upfront. Esp food. I have to eat what and when I want. This is a deal breaker for me
If she wont get help and deal with my diet, I won't even be friends w her.
Am I thinking correctly here?
Why cant I give this R an F? Its a higher grade because it was so close it seems to potential beauty

[JollyJazz]

I have to eat what and when I want. This is a deal breaker for me
If she wont get help and deal with my diet, I won't even be friends w her.
Am I thinking correctly here?

YES!!!
Trying to force someone to eat differently is incredibly controlling. So is shaming someone for the personal issue of what they eat.
Honestly, I think it's on a par with shaming someone for their sexuality. It's deeply personal and to do with what you want to do with your physical body. Your body, your choice.

I mentioned I'm vegan, this is very personal and private. I don't seek to tell others what to do or how to eat. And I think it's rude when other people try to tell me how to eat or blurt unsolicited (usually critical opinions) of my own eating choices.

A friend I've had doubts about various issues for a long time sent me (unsolicited) a clip of this keto advocate ranting and mocking  vegans. It was horrible! How I eat is private after other mean, critical things in the past, boundary violations and other disrespect I am getting distance from this person big time.

Anyways I am glad for all the hard work you have done and continue to do. Good on you for those boundaries. They are completely reasonable!!!!

Best wishes Foggy! You sound like a good kind person. Just remember that. And you deserve goodness and kindness back to you 

[foggydude]

Am I being unreasonable saying I want to be more than friends and my needs and terms must come 1st for a while.

I'm not giving her all thr best parts of me and fun times w/o the rest of the romance and relationship benefits. Is that wrong?

you are not being unreasonable- that's a BOUNDARY. 

ffwi it's been 14 years and one day 1 from when i made that decision to make that boundary for myself with my ex.  it was hard and it took a couple more months to follow through but putting ME first was what started  the most healing path i've ever been on.  it was LIFE changing to put it mildly.  it affected my work and all other relationships positively when i learned to put me first and say NO this isn't for me- even when it wasn't a situation with a PD. 

i think you know what you want the outcome to be but your mind and heart haven't reconciled with that yet.  just breathe and know you deserve to be treated better than this.