Surrounded by PDs - how can I recognise “normal” people??!!

[DesertRose]

Now that I realise my Dad, Grandmother, Mother in Law, Sister in Law and Father in Law all definitely have personality disorders, and I have had such a big dose of unhealthy behaviours in my life, how do I recognise healthy people?

What category do I fit into? I grew up just trying to keep everyone happy and pushing my own needs to the side. My husband seems to have done the same in his family - except that in our home he tended to assert his needs more and expected me to push mine to the side in the early years of our marriage. Until I changed my behaviour and started standing up to him, pointing things out, and doing more of what I wanted to do in an assertive way.  He was willing to grow and become more self aware which is the only reason I'm still with him. But I do feel we are both unhealthy in lots of ways still. We are willing to work on things, but we both feel very broken by our families of origin.

What is it like to be around healthy people? How do you recognise them? I can think of a few people who I really do believe are healthy and who are in my life but I obviously still have a lot to learn.

[GettingOOTF]

I so relate to this. I was surrounded by PDs to the point there were times that I was convinced that I was the problem. I thought no one could have that many toxic people in their life so the issue had to have been me.

It wasn't me. Growing up in a PD home meant that that's what I subconsciously found familiar so that's what I was drawn to.

I started recognizing "normal" in others once I started recognizing dysfunction and toxicity in my own behaviors. Once I was able to identify and change these behaviors in myself I was able to recognize their absence in others.

I have found the I had to go out and actually do the work. I had to change many of my core beliefs and habits to get where I am today. I resisted this for a very long time but I'm finally in a place where I'm surrounded by the kind of people who would never dream of behaving the way the PDs in my life did.

My journey started with Codependent No More.  I believe that everyone in any kind of relationship with a PD has Codependency. It's a skill we develop as children to survive in PD homes. What keeps us safe as a child however puts us in a position to be abused and taken advantage of as adults.  I've been working on this for years. I'm getting much better but I think our healing is a life time of work. There are times I still fall back on old habits. Childhood patterns are so deeply ingrained that they are almost impossible to look at. They are simply who we think we are, which makes this work the hardest work to do.

[GettingOOTF]

As far as how it feels, it just feels "normal". There is no underlying stress and tension. I find I can talk and act naturally. I don't have to hold myself back. I feel safe, heard and comfortable.

[Danie]

The healthier I get the more I realize how surrounded I am with PD family members. I totally understand what you're asking! When I felt that way I just wanted to get out from under it and be in a healthier, happier place asap!

I think it's too stressful to hope for a black/white situation. In other words you're not going to ever be able to detect PDs and non PDs and avoid PDs.
I know, for myself, I was so damaged by an older sibling that criticized and judged and humiliated me growing up. My parents were too dysfunctional to stop it; it still goes on today -- if I let my boundaries down. I am very tuned into this character trait and don't associate with people that would do that to me.

I also have issues with deprivation. My mother deprived me of everything! Materially, emotionally, financially.
There really isn't a person that treats me this way, but my husband's family has a little of this mentality and I know I can get triggered when they cheap out on things.

Put the focus on yourself and your needs. Decide what you're willing to tolerate. It's all new and still a lifelong leaning experience.

[Cat of the Canals]

There's a thread in Common Behaviors called "relationship red flags." It leans somewhat towards romantic relationships, but a lot of them apply to any relationship. It was surprising how many I've noticed in friendships that seemed normal at first and then got weird.

My BPD mother trained me to be a codependent doormat and a people pleaser, so I tend to be a magnet for PDs and emotionally immature/needy people. Only in recent years have I learned what healthy boundaries are. And I think boundaries end up being a pretty good barometer for figuring out the kind of person you're dealing with.

Example:
An acquaintance came to me and struck up what sounded like a run-of-the-mill "hey, how are you?" conversation. Once the pleasantries had been exchanged, she quickly started delving into the details of her divorce in a way that felt overly-familiar and strange. If a close friend had done this, it would have felt normal. But this was someone I'd only ever had surface-level conversations with.

The Old Me would have interpreted this as a sign that she saw me as an empathetic person who would be willing to listen (which is true). The problem New Me had was recognizing that boundary-wise, this felt wrong. If I play "close friend and confidant" now, is she going to come to expect that from me in future interactions? My feeling was that she would, and then the issue becomes that I have been pushed into that role without it being a reciprocal, natural thing. A true close friendship involves some back and forth. Giving and receiving. But this was setting the stage for a one-way friendship. This has been a recurring theme in my life.

That's not to say that New Me is unwilling to be a sympathetic ear to anyone "outside" my circle. If she had started the conversation by saying, "Hey, I'm going through some things and I don't know who to talk to... could I vent for a minute?" I probably would have said, "Sure." Because in that case, she is both being clear about what she wants from me and asking if it's OK. She's acknowledging the natural boundaries of our relationship. Not doing that was a red flag, so I gave a few polite medium chill responses, and she pretty quickly got the hint that I wasn't willing to go deeper than that.

[Boat Babe]

Around non PDs, I feel ok. No fluttery guts, no second guessing, no oversharing, no intensity, no drama, no self doubt, no BS.

[Hilltop]

As I get healthier my friendships have changed.  I leave my friends feeling positive, loving and warm.  I don't feel apprehensive when going to see them. The conversations are not drama filled, not putting other people down, there are no insults, they have healthy boundaries, they do not over share at a early stage.  I feel like they genuinely care about me.

The difference when I am going to see my FOO or in-laws is that I physically feel uneasy, I feel the tension and anxiety either with my thoughts or in the pit of my stomach.  I am on guard around them, there will be insults either overt or covert.  In the case of my MIL she will over share personal information where our relationship is not at that level.  She has also done this with my FOO.  However she uses any information she gets to gossip.  They will gossip and put down other people frequently.  They will push boundaries all the time even with small things.  MIL loves to flatter people early on, so if someone now is overly flattering early on I see it as a red flag.  A couple of genuine compliments is nice, flattery is excessive and used to disarm you and draw you in.

However there are other people I come across that may have behaviours I don't like but they aren't PD.  At work people may be gossipy but I don't find them PD.  I do watch what I say around them and I don't think I'll be close friends with them but they are usually pretty harmless. 

[Spring Butterfly]

Really awesome feedback and thoughts in this thread and I'll just add there's a concept called circles of intimacy that really helped me. Understanding that people start on the outside of the circle of intimacy and that gradually we allow them in closer helped me make better and more healthier choices as to who I allowed into the next circle closer.

[DesertRose]

The feedback you have all given here is fantastic. I am so grateful to have found this forum where people completely "get it" and are farther down the recovery road than I am. I am learning so much from all of you. Such good points about paying attention to how I feel around people. If I think back to my time at university, it was incredibly healing and I was thrown together with a mix of people - including healthy, non PD people. I grew so much. I got to observe my housemates with their healthy families. And like you say with most of those ppl I didn't have bad feelings. The healthy ppl generally treated each other with dignity and respect and resolved issues fairly quickly. They were also assertive about housemate issues (Eg "who left the dirty dishes in the sink?!") and these things were usually resolved quickly and reasonably amicably with ppl being able to speak their minds. It was so good. DH and I have had to work hard together to not let our mutual baggage from our PD parents cause us to live out our trauma. Both of us definitely have past trauma and DH has ptsd symptoms  according to our therapist. It's hard work but we are getting there. I finally feel like I can be assertive with him. Show annoyance if I am annoyed, show sadness or disappointment and generally be myself. But we are both more or less "pleasers" who are learning to be healthy. Gosh I want my kids to learn to be healthy and assertive. I hope I can provide a nurturing environment for them.

Thanks again for the great insights and voices of experience. 

[MarlenaEve]

Now that I realise my Dad, Grandmother, Mother in Law, Sister in Law and Father in Law all definitely have personality disorders, and I have had such a big dose of unhealthy behaviours in my life, how do I recognise healthy people?

What category do I fit into? I grew up just trying to keep everyone happy and pushing my own needs to the side. My husband seems to have done the same in his family - except that in our home he tended to assert his needs more and expected me to push mine to the side in the early years of our marriage. Until I changed my behaviour and started standing up to him, pointing things out, and doing more of what I wanted to do in an assertive way.  He was willing to grow and become more self aware which is the only reason I'm still with him. But I do feel we are both unhealthy in lots of ways still. We are willing to work on things, but we both feel very broken by our families of origin.

What is it like to be around healthy people? How do you recognise them? I can think of a few people who I really do believe are healthy and who are in my life but I obviously still have a lot to learn.

Yeah this is my situation too. I've had too many PD people in my life. But, I think we can learn healthy love. And i think it's possible to let healthy relationships in and close the door to toxic ones. I really do think that, by solving our trauma bond (the addiction to being in relationships with wounded, unhealthy people or to get their validation), we can solve our unhealthy traits as well.

One thing I learned is that, when I tune into my body and see how I feel about a specific person in my life, I am usually right about them. If someone makes me anxious or nervous for no obvious reasons, they are definitely toxic (covert toxic) and when I realise it, I stay away.
It is easy to realise who feels threatening to you and who is not: does the person you're with make you be in your head often, do they cause rumination, uneasy feelings, confusion, and worse, constant anxiety and dread? if so, they're toxic. No matter how lovely their positive traits are (they can be famous, giving to charity a lot, well-liked in their community, intelligent, talented, good with people, wealthy etc, they're still toxic.

Trust your body and what happens in your mind after a long interaction with them.

[pianissimo]

I find myself in a similar situation. After learning about personality disorders, I decided to consider some behaviors as red flags. Gossip has become a huge red flag for me. I used to think everyone gossips and it's just one of those human weaknesses. Now, I realize, not everyone gossips. There are actually people who feel uncomfortable when they hear gossip.

[AlisonWonder]

Does the person need to talk about other people all the time, or can they talk about themselves and general things?
Is there a big hurry to get intimate?
Are they surprisingly available for a friendship?  (because others avoid them)
Only want to "clling" to a few people in the crowd and ignore new people?
These are clues although there is no guarantee, because PD people are always observing and learning from their mistakes.

For me the first sign of "emotion abuse" seems to be confusion.  If  you aren't habitually aware of how you are feeling, you will be a good target for PD people.

I hope this helps, yeah people don't understand that if you have one in your life, you probably grew up in a cluster of them.  Long live the school system which allows us to meet some normal people early in life.

[DesertRose]

AlisonWonder, such a great point about the school system. I'm so grateful for my exposure to normal people during my early and middle childhood years. Sadly because my dad was so controlling and because my school started showing videos about "good touch bad touch" and my dad had molested me, he pulled me out. I think he didn't want me to realised he had abused me so he went so far as to have my mom start home schooling us. No judgement towards people who home school, but in my case it drastically increased my interactions with people who were PD (my dad, and other people who were odd or lacked social skills). There were also healthy and well balanced home schooling people out there to be sure, but in my day and in my circles, many of the people had mental health issues. I feel overwhelmed just thinking of it. I had to home school my children during part of the pandemic and found it extremely triggering and isolating.

[alphaomega]

Wow is this ever a wonderful thread !!! Thank you !!

Recently, I have been being "sought out" by what I now absolutely know is a woman with serious malignant NPD. 

At first, because I've been programmed to default to this type of people as a result of growing up with a mother who had clear NPD, it feels familiar. 
Almost, like "love" right ? 

Because thats what we have been programmed to see a "love" ?

This woman has a special needs child, so thats an automatic "you get immediate love and nurturing from me".   
But it has become more and more obvious, she USES that situation to USE people.

I have had a total of 5 interactions with her, and she is relentless.  Including telling me "You are my only friend here".     WTF ???
I know that is absolutely not true because she has thousands of "friends" on FB.   I swear some of these people collect "friends" just for the purpose of using them.

Having them at their disposal.

My mother had NO friends.  Like i'm not kidding.  None.  Not a single one. 

So I had to check myself when the energy with this woman felt familiar, yet she was so diametrically different than MY experience with NPD's.
For a second there, I thought - wow this is sooooo cool to have this really popular girl actually WANT TO BE MY FRIEND....

Ironically, my body would react the EXACT SAME WAY when I was around NPDM.  I'd get sweaty, anxious, and dizzy and disoriented as she would go on and on and on about herself and how the world had done her wrong.

It's interesting because through this woman, I have been able to see two things.
1. How narcissist flock to empaths like moths to flames.
2. How empaths find familiarity in these relationships and therefore seek them out as a source of "comfort"

Boundaries.  Don't leave home with out them.

And, our bodies keep the score.  LISTEN TO THEM WHEN THEY SCREAM ! 

XO AO

[Spring Butterfly]

I recently downloaded "the gift of fear" and it's pretty mind blowing because it talks about things like being too familiar and intimate too fast as red flag signals. The author talks about our inclination to turn away from intuition. For those of us here though We have been trained not to trust our gut because the words we hear consistently do not match the actions and experience with the PD person. I have found though the past few years tuning into my gut Instead of ignoring it when it comes to relationships is spot on target. Oddly I have an extremely sharp gut instinct and have used it at work and other relationships but ignored it when I came to family feeling instead the familiar FOG and heeding it's call instead of my gut. No more though

[Hazy111]

All true. Just extremes of behavior i believe are real tell tales. (I suffer a few.).

As someone on here once said and i think is very true , once you see it , you cant unsee it, which can be a real bonus and a hindrance as you become more aware.

Over sharing. Under sharing.

Gossiping, basically judgemental and critical. No gossip at all. (Part of undersharing)

Self obsession or subjects close to them. Only interested in you and others.

Monologue. Mute.

Life and soul. Shy wallflowers.

Deluded fantasists. Hard nosed cynics.

Blissful optimists.  Depressed pessimists.

Busy doers. Lazy lethargics.

Fiercely independent . Clingy helplessness.

Selfish users. People pleasers.

Ruthlessly ambitious. No ambition.

Hungry for fame, notoriety. Live anonymously.

Crave power. Detest authority.

The need to control. Absence of responsibility. 

and so it goes on and  then you realise theres barely a person on the planet who isnt PD! All signs of C-PTSD, trauma in early childhood.