Boundaries and phone calls

[Cat of the Canals]

I've always had a natural inclination for strong boundaries on the "big things" with my mother. I don't confide in her or tell her intimate details about my life. I don't rely on her for comfort or support. But the small things have always tripped me up, like phone calls.

She has the standard narc internal clock that seems to sound the alarm if a certain, unspecified amount of time has gone by and I haven't called. And then the passive aggressive games start up. Sometimes she calls me, but she'll do it in the middle of the work day, when I almost never answer because *shocker* I'M WORKING. This week, she didn't even bother trying to call me before sending a slew of whiny messages via FB message, text, and Skype chat. As if one of her passive aggressive messages wouldn't suffice. 

In the past, I'd pick a day when I felt I could tolerate it and call her, just to get it over with. But it's been kind of a rough month or so (my BIL committed suicide at the end of January), and I suddenly have zero patience for this game. I wouldn't accept this behavior from anyone else. And she wouldn't do it to anyone else. So why am I always willing to look the other way?

Can you share some of the boundaries you have when it comes to your PD family members and phone calls?

[Boat Babe]

Oh my, I get all chest tight just thinking about it. My mum lives at a distance and I steel myself for phone calls. She's now in her late eighties and has no family but me. (Ah the joys) I get all the waify stuff, to the nth degree and finish most calls exhausted because I have to manage my feelings and what I say so carefully to stay pleasant and MC.

Between your M and MIL you've got a right pair to deal with. In the short term, while you continue to grieve your BIL, can you reduce contact as much as possible with both of them, giving you and DH the space you need right now. Sending hugs.

[Socialsunshine]

Cat of the Canals- I'm so sorry to hear about your BIL. I actually lost 3 family members on my husbands side in January (1 due to cancer and 2 to COVID) and I find I have even LESS energy for my uBPM than I did before. Grieving is so exhausting and then add a PD to it and it's almost intolerable. I no longer even talk to my mom on the phone now- the thought gives me anxiety. We do text about plans and I see her in person occasionally, but the no calling thing took time as I used to feel like I HAD to call her at least once a week. Then I had my first child and bad PPA and out of necessity and time just stopped calling. I also resonate with your feelings of calling her when you felt emotionally up to it- I did that for a long long time. And overall that's not *bad*, I think the issue is you're feeling like it less and less right now, understandably so. I think you're also wise not to share too much personal info with your mom, as that has also been my approach, however it's SO hard when you're going through a really hard time and you feel like you *should* be able to go to her... grrrrr. Anyway, I think you should still call when you feel like it, and don't respond when you don't feel up to it. If she gives you passive aggressive comments just let them roll right off- they're not about you anyway but about HER.

[Cat of the Canals]

Boat Babe, thank you so much for the reminder that it is natural and expected that we need space to grieve. (So far the only people to truly acknowledge that in either family are my brother and his wife.) I still sometimes fall into the trap of feeling like my own selfcare is something that should be secondary to my mother's needs. Ugh!

Socialsunshine, I'm so sorry for your loss. "Grieving is so exhausting and then add a PD to it and it's almost intolerable." I can't empathize with this more. It took two days after we found out about my BIL before I could bring myself to tell my mother. I felt physically ill having to relate something so personal and emotional with her, and she of course used the opportunity to pump me for all the grisly details. So part of my anger right now is probably also related to that.

[MamaDryad]

Cat of the Canals, I'm sorry for your loss.

Boundaries around phone calls are actually what finally blew up my LC relationship with my mother (uBPD & alcoholic) and eventually led to me going NC. All my life, she starts drinking at 5pm and doesn't stop until she's blacked out, every night. The sound of her drunk voice triggers some bad stuff in me. So I tried to do some compartmentalizing: I would visit her for brunch or lunch, we could talk on the phone during the day (and did, several times a week), but nothing in the evening. For years, it was my only boundary with her, and did she respect it? She did not. Every few months, she'd "forget" and then rage at me when I reminded her and hung up; the next day, she'd either pretend it never happened or send me a long screed about why it didn't count.

It's partly on me, because a boundary isn't a boundary without a consequence, and while I'm sure being called on it felt like a consequence to her in the moment, nothing changed. I also noticed after a while that she stopped calling me during the day (though she would still poke me via email if I didn't call often enough). When I asked her about it, she said that I had "told [her] never to call [me]."

There was more, and worse, of course. But it was the continued phone games that finally drove home to me that she would never stop trying to violate my boundaries, simply because she didn't believe I had the right to set them.

[WinterStar]

Cat,

My no phone call boundary with BPDm was a long time coming. Calls were always difficult. When I went away to college, my mom would call and if I didn't call back within hours, she would assume I was dead. I had a landline I shared with my roommate with no voicemail indicator on it, so clearly, there were other reasons I might not call her back right away. For many years, she kept a list, literally a written list, of all the things she needed to tell me since the last time we talked. Always lots of woe. I remember regularly putting the phone down and walking away for five minutes at a time, and she never once noticed I had been missing.

She had a clever trick for keeping me on the phone that took me decades to figure out. I thought it was just hard to get her to say goodbye, but what she would do was when I said I needed to go, she would bring up something I actually wanted to talk about. We'd talk about that for awhile, she'd end up switching topics and talk without taking a break. It would have been "rude" to interrupt, so I never did. Then, I'd say I need to go, and guess what? She'd think of something interesting for me again. The "I gotta go, Mom" dance took as long or longer than the original phone call. I ended up drained by the end of every conversation, and I was usually triggered by something she said and felt dysregulated for hours or days. And I could never react to the triggers in the moment, so I'd replay the conversations over and over again in my mind, coming up with assertive things I could have said and trying to figure out how to correctly anticipate future triggers so that I could respond better next time. It never worked.

Over time, I stopped initiating phone calls, stopped answering her calls, responded to her voicemails with email. The last straw was a phone call two years ago. She wanted to talk about our relationship. I didn't want to, but I felt like I had to. We scheduled a time to talk, and it was all about how I didn't do enough for her, didn't accommodate her enough. She wanted more visits, longer visits, me to focus on her during visits, more phone calls... I was already doing the max I could handle. I tried to explain that with my husband, three kids, house, job, I had almost no free time anymore. She didn't get it at all.

I could never please her. I was always giving as much as I could, often at the expense of my peace and the energy I had for my family. (Not cool, mom, not cool.) So, I started figuring out what I wanted, and, as it turns out, it was a whole heck of a lot less than what I had been doing. I used to think that I had to try with my mom because I'd always regret it if I didn't do everything I could to make the relationship work. Lately, I've realized how much time and emotional energy my mother has sucked out of my life, stolen from me and from my kids, and I realized that I will regret it if I allow her to steal any more.

I'm sorry for the loss of your BIL. Feel free to take all the time you need to cut out space for you to grieve.

Also, things that have helped me. I forward my mom's calls to an online phone number with the same voicemail as my phone. I have the transcripts emailed to me and read them. I never listen to them. Her waify voice by itself is very triggering. The voicemail transcripts and all emails go to the same folder that I only check once a week. This way I know it's not her when my phone rings! I don't have to worry about unexpected voicemails or emails. And I never check the folder at the end of the day when I'm tired or any time I'm already upset. These changes and boundaries in other parts of my life have led to a great deal of peace.

[Happypants]

Cat of the Canals - i totally get the alarm clock comment.  There's a predetermined amount of time goes by between contact with my parents when I begin to feel the pressure to contact them. Sometimes, my father will get in first and call me, and if I know I need to keep my faculties about me for work or i'm in self-care mode, I'll let it go to voicemail and deal with it later.  That scenario (ignoring the call) use to send my anxiety sky-high as I know they place little value on my time as an individual, but one incident changed it for me.  My father left an extremely waify voicemail (he has genuine health issues and I worry about him, plus my mother had been in hospital), sounding very down and weak.  I had ignored the call and checked the voicemail 10 minutes after.  When I heard his voice, I called back straight away genuinely worried to which he answered absolutely full of the joys of spring, SINGING down the phone "tee-dee-dee-dee-dee" (literally!!) - his ploy had worked, dutiful daughter had fallen for it and did as was expected.  That one blatant, shameless incident plus several subtle comments over the years comparing my time to my GC brothers in the context of me always having to be available to answer the phone was the final straw.  My unbreakable boundary - never, ever, ever call back straight away.  I wait at least one hour, and I've stretched it on occasion to a day, even two, and if it bothers them, that's their problem, I control my time and i'm more productive for not letting them poison my mood or motivation (sometimes they're really lovely, and that can be as confusing).  After all these years, I've become protective over my time.  My headspace is a different story, they still invade that fairly easily, but it's a case of putting off the threat of emotional manipulation until I have the time and energy to deal with it if it does occur - their doing, not mine.

[SparkStillLit]

UGH PHONE CALLS. PDM's favorite. She calls numerous times per week, sometimes per DAY, and leaves long vms often till my phone cuts her off. IF I choose to respond with a call, she will call back several more times. WITHOUT FAIL.
Of late, I have had some serious things happen, and have not had the emotional means to deal with her. I decided this was an excellent time to reset some of this nonsense. I no longer pick up any of these calls. I listen to the vms when I feel like I have the strength for it. I delete with no response the nonsense ones, and I respond in either text or email to the ones that I feel like responding to. M will not reply in the same manner, but she does read those things. Now, I am aware that my responses will set off another storm of calls, but she calls anyway, so.....
The only complete solution would be NC.
I have found this tolerable thus far.
I too give her no info. "We're fine, everyone is fine, YA and hubby are well, how are your daffodils this year?" That sort of thing. Both in writing and if I talk to her.

[SunnyMeadow]

She's now in her late eighties and has no family but me. (Ah the joys)

Same here!

Cat - as far as boundaries, I'd make the call and tell her I'm feeling low today and not good company to talk. Keep it as short as possible, sound low and bored and end the call asap. Repeat as necessary until you are such a disinterested listener, she doesn't call you or bother with you. That's how I've tapered down on calls. I'm pretty boring now.

That's how how I started my telephone boundaries. It sounds like you're beyond that point since you said you suddenly have zero patience for this game. In this case, I'd text her that I feel depressed and just can't talk on the phone and I'm swamped with work. Turn it into what it's really about, YOU and not her. It's good for them to realize you are a person with feelings and emotions and you're dealing with tough things right now. My uNPDmother thinks of only herself, stews about people not jumping to her tune etc. From time to time I like to blast her with my emotions, and maybe my health issues (this woman loves medical problems!). That seems to shut her up and see it's not all about her.  (then she bombards me with medical articles but it's better than her other crap)

You may not want to share any info about you, I get that! I just like doing this occasionally, give her the minimum of info only about me so she'll shut up about herself.

Ugh, they are a big huge pain in the rear.

[Sneezy]

Phone calls can be used as a means of exerting control.  No matter what you are doing when the phone rings, you are supposed to stop and answer, right?  Nope!  I decided a while ago that I had to take control of the phone back.  I rarely answer the house phone (and most of the handsets in my house are turned off).  Messages are automatically transcribed and sent to my email.  My cell phone is set to silent and is in my purse.  I check it a few times a day to see if there are any messages.   People who know me well know that the best way to reach me is via text.  (Note, I text using my ipad, which doesn't have a ringer, which I think is wonderful!!!).

My mom often gets anxious and bored.  So she starts calling people.  Whoever answers is "it" and must entertain her.  I no longer play that game.  And it's hard, because I feel very guilty about it at times.  But several relatives have asked me how to handle mom's incessant phone calls, and the advice I always give them is - Don't feel obligated to answer the phone.  Don't feel like you have to call back right away.  Only talk to mom on the phone when you feel like you have the mental strength to handle it because she weaponizes telephone calls.  It's difficult at times, but I have to remember to take my own advice 

[Lisa]

Reading everyone's messages here nodding my head. I can totally relate!  How are these experiences so similar!!!

One of my mom's favourite things to do with phone calls is call from unknown numbers.  Lately it has been from pay phones. It worked really well for her when I worked in an office setting and had to answer my office phone.  Thankfully that's no longer my situation.

[Cat of the Canals]

Thank you all so much for sharing. I realize now I've been holding onto some subconscious guilt. We moved far from our FOOs in the fall of 2019 and because of the pandemic have not had any in-person contact with our families since then. It has mostly been a blessing, honestly, BUT I think I've felt a "responsibility" to give my mother more attention than I usually would because of the underlying guilt.

One thing I didn't mention in my original post is that it isn't just phone calls that she expects. We have been almost exclusively videochatting since I moved. I don't like videochatting, but again, guilt prevailed. She knows I video with my brother (mostly so I can see my two nephews running around like maniacs), and she had to have her turn. But that's quickly become the only way she wants to communicate and the only way she tries to get in touch.

Oh, and the last two times we videochatted, that alone wasn't enough - she wanted to try to get my aunt (one of her pet flying monkeys) in on the call. I quickly noped right out of that situation. I can only handle one adult toddler at a time, thank you very much.

Anyway, thank you again for the reminder that needing a break and some space isn't an unreasonable thing. And that the boundaries I already have (not answering just because she calls or feeling the need to immediately return calls) are a foundation to build on if need be. I think I'll be taking a break from the videochats for a long while.

[SparkStillLit]

Pdm left the grossest message "my daughter, son, and grandchildren are my life"
BAAARRRRFFFFFF. Enmeshed much? And notice how she left out her son in law, the father of the grandchildren.
I'm horribly disgustingly ill with every single side effect on the list after my 2nd covid vaccination, so I texted her to quit bugging me. Of course she ignored that. Son is having fun at a friend's house working on race cars, and she offered to go pick him up "to support him". Wtaf? He's happy as a clam and is likely staying over, it's his best buddy. Again, BUGGER OFF! I'm sick! (sorry. That's rude.)

[Cat of the Canals]

Pdm left the grossest message "my daughter, son, and grandchildren are my life"

I'm barfing along with you. My mother once told me that even if she saw me every single day, it wouldn't be enough. Ick. She thought it was a sweet thing to say. I could only think about how if anyone else said that to me, I'd be filing a restraining order.

I hope she gives you some peace and that you feel better!

[Cat of the Canals]

She called again and left three messages. And had her sister email me to tell me to call her. Enough is enough.

I sent a message telling my mother I wasn't feeling up to talking on the phone, maybe in a few days. And I emailed my aunt back and politely told her that I know she means well, but in the future, I'd prefer that my mother tell me what she wants directly and not send messages via third parties.

This might be the first time I've ever told my mother "no" outright. I've dodged and avoided and gray rocked, but I usually find some sort of compromise to give her what she wants. Now that I've done it, I can't believe I've gone this long putting her before myself and my family.

She sent a message back this morning playing nice. In the past I would have thought, "Wow, she's actually respecting my boundaries. Maybe I'm too hard on her." But I'm reading Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist and now recognize this for what it is: she's temporarily allowing me to be in the Victim role. (In fact, her message implied that she expects me to run to her for rescuing when I'm ready. Ugh.) The reality is that I'll probably be allotted a few days before she starts poking, wanting me to return to my usual role as caretaker.

Meanwhile, I can pretty much guarantee my aunt will give me the silent TREATment and waif to unBPD mom about how nasty I am. 

But you know what? I don't care! I'm not going back to playing the games. I'd been sleeping poorly for a week and finally slept through the night last night after sending the messages. I feel suddenly and completely free of the guilt.

I wish I could hug each and every one of you for helping me find the strength to finally say NO.

[SunnyMeadow]

Good to hear Cat!  I think you handled that very well

[Lisa]

That's so great to hear, good for you!  Enjoy your sleep 

[Cat of the Canals]

My parents were scheduled to get their first covid vaccination over the weekend, so I asked about it via text. My thinking being that just because I don't want to talk on the phone right now doesn't mean we can't converse by other means. I guess this was a no-no because she hasn't responded. I both am and am not surprised.

I'm surprised that someone who only a few days ago was bombarding me with messages and calls and flying monkeys suddenly has no interest in talking to me.

I am not surprised because I had a feeling that she was only allowing me this "freedom" by envisioning me lying on the floor in the fetal position, sobbing in grief and desperation. The fact that I'm still capable of texting means I don't really have a reason to not give her what she wants.

I'm still coming to terms with the notion that she really believes that anytime her needs aren't met, someone is doing it on purpose, out of cruelty. That anything withheld from her is a form of neglect. The fact that I physically *could* speak to her on the phone means that I *should*. And by not doing so, I am "being mean." I can't understand how anyone could act so entitled.

[Fiasco]

I'm still coming to terms with the notion that she really believes that anytime her needs aren't met, someone is doing it on purpose, out of cruelty. That anything withheld from her is a form of neglect.

Oh wow, that is my BPDm too. Everything is a freaking personal attack! I guess that's logical when you see yourself as the center of the universe. 

This is a helpful thread in general because no matter how long I've been Out of the FOG and how hip I am to her every manipulation M still managed to wind me up good this weekend. When she finally answered the 8th call of the weekend (seriously what was I thinking) she told me that "when she used to know me" I was always staring at my phone so when I don't answer her calls it's because I'm rude. Well she got one thing right, it sure is absolutely on purpose that I don't answer when she calls. 

[Starboard Song]

Can you share some of the boundaries you have when it comes to your PD family members and phone calls?

We will expose ourselves to their messages and respond on a fixed cadence, and at a fixed time of day in some cases. If there is a medium that cannot be muted or controlled, then we exclude them from it. Like text messaging: we block the number entirely and do not receive any texts, because we cannot control them. Emails can be automatically shunted to a special inbox and read on Thursdays at noon, or whatever.

We also have NC people: they are blocked entirely from all formats, and we accept nothing from them. But that is a different species.