Technology crisis

[Pepin]

UGH!  DH again was roped into helping PDmil sort out her TV and remote control situation all to save PDmil a few bucks.  Please.  DH returned home frustrated and said he has given up trying to show her how to operate the "simple" platform he found for her TV viewing by using the remote.  She just doesn't get it.  He said he tried to explain it to her over and over and she finally said that she didn't understand why she didn't get it either.  While I am keenly aware that technology is difficult on some level for seniors, this is something else.  Cognitive or manipulative?  DH has been working on this for a very long time trying to sort this out with her.  Years now?

I think PDmil is playing a game with DH.  By playing the confusion card, it gets DH to try again a different way and then revisit with her.  He cannot help himself in this situation because he genuinely wants to please her.  He doesn't realize that he never can.  She won't let him because this is her way of getting his attention -- even if he gets mad and storms out.

This is a woman that has a touch screen phone and cannot retrieve voice messages.  She has big squares with a picture of each person in each one that all she has to do is press if she wants to call them.  And even that is hard because she sometimes doesn't press hard enough!  I am really trying not to believe that she is that completely inept since she has had this setup for years.  After having a cell phone for 10+ years you can't retrieve voicemail?  DH has gone out of his way to literally dumb down everything for her.

I look for patterns often in people and having known PDmil for as long as I have, OMG.  She is hands down wiping her feet on my husband to keep him away from me with her continued helplessness.  DH doesn't think it is cognitive.  That leaves manipulative but he wold never believe that. 

Did I mention that she had one of those life alert devices and even that was hard to use?     Doesn't have one anymore.

[Cat of the Canals]

I've gone around and around on tech stuff with my unPD mother, and my husband has done the same with his. I suspect there might be some cognitive element, but I also can't write off the the notion that they never feel they "need" to learn because they can simply get someone else to do it.

I've tried explaining to my mother that one of the apps she tries to use to call me for video chats DOESN'T WORK. It has never worked. For her or me! She has complained ad nauseum about how it never works. I have in turn explained the program she SHOULD use and how to do it... I still get requests from her via this useless app at least once a week. I've wondered if she does it on purpose because then she gets to claim that she's tried to called me, and in her mind that means it's my turn to call her.

[Sneezy]

I suspect there are several things going on with your MIL.  As you noted, seniors do have trouble with technological things that seem intuitive to us.  My mom is always pushing too hard or not hard enough on her cell phone screen.  And the difference between a click and a double-click completely eludes her.  That said, my own kids think I'm pretty hopeless with technology, as I can't seem to figure out the smart thermostat they got me (and just why does my thermostat need to be so smart, anyway  ?).

But a big part of helplessness is feigned helplessness.  What a great way to get your husband to give her attention by running over to help her.  And none of us want to feel like we can't or won't help.  We are people-pleasers who want to succeed and show that we are capable.  They have programmed us to be dutiful, helpful children.  We can't stand the thought of being "bad" children who won't help our parents, or worse "dumb" children who aren't capable of helping.

One thing that has helped me is to take a breath and wait when Mom has technology problems. If I am too busy to help at the moment, and the problem sits for a bit, it often resolves itself.  It's amazing how quickly my mom has figured out how to fix her own TV problems when there is a show she wants to watch and I don't have time to run over and help.  Maybe you can suggest to your husband that he wait before helping his mom?  No problem is so urgent that he has to rush right over.  Give it a day or two or even a week, and she may suddenly figure it out on her own.

[Jolie40]

what's second nature for kids today is difficult for their grandparents

our kid connects with (nonPD) Grandma wkly
after all this time, Grandma still has problems with iPad
happened again today!
she accidently turned off something so she couldn't connect

It's not their fault since they didn't grow up with technology

[Leonor]

Baloney.

TV is not some new fangled invention.

It is reasonable for adult people to figure out stuff.

Sometimes we think that our parents are totally incapable of life stuff, as if they had survived until our adulthood totally by accident. They managed fine when we were children.

Are we managing fine while our children grow? Are we doing adult stuff? And when our children enter adulthood, will we suddenly turn into helpless little things unable to use a remote control or pay a bill?

Hang in there Pepin, you know what's true!




This is just another play.

[Dandelion]

It all sounds frustratingly familiar.

My mother would get angry about not being able to get her phone to work, that it was broken again (it wasn't), even though it was the simplest thing.  I would show her again next time I visited. And again the following time.  In between more moaning and anger. 

Possibly some cognitive element.

But I also think its because they believe they shouldn't have to make this effort.  If something is a little bit hard or requires some patience or application or effort, other people should really be there immediately sorting it all out and doing it for them.  Especially adult children as that IS their role.  Also, it must be the phone's fault, as it is certainly not theirs.

The whole thing never seems to end.  The more you do, the more you're expected to do.  The best thing (IMO) is to do nothing*.  Maybe make them a nice cup of tea if you visit but no more. 

I think you have to "drop the rope".

Just say "use the landline if you can't use a mobile".

End of.

*(I should add I have been NC for 6 months for other reasons and it looks like its going to stay that way, and it is a relief not to deal with this kind of stuff.  I also see more easily how draining all these 'life admin' demands were).

[Sneezy]

If something is a little bit hard or requires some patience or application or effort, other people should really be there immediately sorting it all out and doing it for them.

I think this is definitely the case.  My mom wants everything to be easy and run smoothly at all times.  The slightest amount of frustration (and technology *can* be frustrating at times) throws her for a loop.

Some technology is easy to use, some not so much.  Who is old enough to remember when VCRs first came out?  You practically needed a degree in electrical engineering to hook one up to your TV, and setting one in advance to record a TV show later was almost impossible to figure out.  So yeah, today's smart TVs seem like a breeze compared to that.  But, they can still be difficult and mystifying for someone brought up in the fifties, for example.

I don't mind helping my mom with technology.  What I mind is when she acts completely helpless, when it's always an emergency, when she lies (for example, telling me her email "isn't working on any device," and then I log on and see that she just replied to an email), when she purposely does exactly what I told her not to do, when she acts entitled and ungrateful, when she buys a new device and takes all the parts out and puts them in a paper bag and hands it to me and demands that I figure it out, etc.  There is normal helping out an old person who needs a little help with the latest technology, and then there is the PD-behavior that we all seem to get from our parents who are using feigned helplessness as a means of manipulation and control.  Sometimes it's hard to articulate, but we know it when we feel it.

[Pepin]

Possibly some cognitive element.

But I also think its because they believe they shouldn't have to make this effort.  If something is a little bit hard or requires some patience or application or effort, other people should really be there immediately sorting it all out and doing it for them.  Especially adult children as that IS their role.

The whole thing never seems to end.  The more you do, the more you're expected to do.

I think you have to "drop the rope".

Absolutely this.  I really do believe that she think's it is DH's role to show her over and over again.  I don't think he could make it any simpler, honestly.  This has been going on for years. 

Some technology is easy to use, some not so much.  Who is old enough to remember when VCRs first came out?

There is normal helping out an old person who needs a little help with the latest technology, and then there is the PD-behavior that we all seem to get from our parents who are using feigned helplessness as a means of manipulation and control.  Sometimes it's hard to articulate, but we know it when we feel it.

VCR's....that was also DH's area of expertise.  PDmil had no clue how to hook one up.  She still has one in fact and we have a spare in case that one dies.  She never even had a DVD player....though I don't think she uses the VCR anymore.

When she says she "doesn't understand why she doesn't understand" -- what does that really mean?  There is nothing to grasp from a statement like that.  Most people can at least explain why they don't understand and try to ask questions to make the connection.  I truly feel like she is just acting helpless to push DH's buttons.  She likes making him do things even if he gets upset showing her.

Ugh.  DH just told me that he has to go over to her house and deal with something else non technology related that would require him to be on a ladder.  I don't like this.  It isn't like she can spot him while he is on the ladder like I can...

[Leonor]

Oh Pepin,

You know that the issue is not that her remote is complicated.

Even VCRs were not *that* complicated, 'cause pretty soon we all had one.

And it's not that your mil thinks things should be easy for her. Or that it's upsetting for her to not be able to see her show, or whatever.

That's just part of the game, and the object of the game is to get their adult child to go on parenting them as they always have, and the goal of the game is to WIN.

The issue is that your mil is in the power struggle of her life because she is emotionally abusing her adult son, and one sure fire way to win him from you is to set up these ridiculous chores so he can run over to her and abandon you. Thus, she wins and you lose. And she is absolutely aware of what she is doing, and she is aware that you are too.

The person who is not fully aware is your dh, because his brain is all FOGged up. Also most dudes just do not operate on an emotional frequency the way that we do, especially if we've been primed to be hyper aware of emotional states ourselves from past abuse.

That it is why it is so painful for you. It sucks and it is horrible.

I'm sorry she is such a mean old word you can't say on TV.

[Andeza]

Ultimately we can't apply regular logic to this situation, because that usually doesn't work with pwPDs. She'll say whatever the heck she thinks she needs to say to keep him going over there. Control. Enmeshment. All the things! That's what she wants and she'll play dumb or worse to get what she wants. And then, she may mean exactly what she has said, because she has no awareness of her dysfunction. Some do, but others I doubt.

Logical? Far from it. Sensible? Not to us for sure. And heck, I'm not even totally in the normal category myself, but PDs take the cake. You'll wear yourself ragged trying to make sense of it, Pepin. It'll only frustrate and consume you until you've got nothing left from trying to understand. The best advice I can give is don't. Don't bother. Don't give her, or him for that matter so long as he's under her thumb and tied to her apron strings, your best energy and problem solving skills when neither of them will properly make use of it. Save those skills for yourself, since they have no appreciation for them. Hot button issue for me, you might be able to tell.

I think it may be helpful if you consider asking your DH to give no details if you haven't already. Tell him to keep it to "I'm going to mom's" and that's it. No mention of whatever her problem is, no thanks. If he starts talking about his mom's problems cut it off fast, throw out a "Oh that's too bad... Hey I've been thinking about rearranging the plates in the cupboard" or some other similar change of topic. Just keep a pile of them in a corner in your mind ready to throw out there when needed. I fear he's using you to dump his frustrations, and that's not okay.

[Dandelion]

Agreeing with what people are writing.

Its "loyal servant syndrome".  You are the Loyal Servant.  (yes and it saves them a few bucks too).

I've been no contact with my NM for 6 months now and see this more clearly with distance and hindsight.

There is (a) the waif - this was for others mainly - but also for me at times.  Also (b) the power aspect - in particular if there is any kind of inheritance.  My NM mentioned to my 18 year old son about changing her Will after our last row.  This was a clear retaliation to my standing up to her last abusive episode, which was described to my son as me getting angry.  Yes its a revisit once more to the Topsy Turvey World of DAVRO  - Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender).

I guess with age, their general activities and supply and powers are diminishing.  So time to bring on some extra roles e.g. (1) The Waif (2) The Disinheritor.   

It seems to me they intend to Win, as they see it as some kind of Win/Lose game, though how or in what sense, its hard to see, its so bonkers/disordered.  But I think all kinds of random interactions they view through this lens, which is why their sulks and attacks are impossible to predict.

I don't believe you can Win with them really - though its possible I guess!  But its such mad hatters tea party, nothing makes sense, the game keeps changing and so forth.  I think the only thing you can realistically do is somehow leave the game.  This is hard because so much is about the game for them :  who is doing what and any imaginary disrespects, then lashing out at any 'narcissistic injury' that might result.  Its sad, because in my case it spoiled so many activities that events that seemed so pleasant until 'wham!'.

I am NC the last 6 months, but if I was still seeing her, it would be LC/VLC.  I would be saying she needs to get local care to help her with stuff.  I would refuse to do alot of things as well, in fact most things.  I would stop being so helpful for a start, and never offer to do anything, and make excuses much of the time (if she got angry too bad). 

One extra thing I did notice more with age was her passivity generally.  I don't think it was age per se, it just brought out more that she "couldn't be bothered doing stuff".  I don't know if this is a "PD" thing.  Though my mother worked and brought up a child (actually she left me to my own devices and I pretty much brought myself up), I think she has been strangely passive in the world.  No intellectual interests, no community interests, no real personal interests (apart from clothes shopping, going to the pub etc).  Has never travelled unless someone else arranged it.  And so on.  She is intelligent and is able to navigate life but there is this weird passivity and flatness as well.  A few years ago I considered she was mellowing a bit - but actually it was an increasing passivity.  Her recent behaviour over the last year or so have shown her core narcissistic behaviour is just the same and probably getting worse.

I hope your DH sorts himself out Pepin.  Unfortunately I am led to believe these demands of ageing PDs usually increase as they get older ...

[JenniferSmith]

Just wanted to share that there can be a condition where a person does not have the insight that they have a cognitive disorder. The term is anosognosia.  This article discusses it in relation to alzheimers, and gives a good overview of it.

Definitely not implying your mother has this, but wanted to mention it.

PD parents, when they age, are not immune to any of the other issues that can come with aging, such as cognitive changes, emotional changes, diseases such as Parkinson's, etc..   This undoubtedly makes it even more challenging for any of us who are in their lives as these changes happen.

https://www.agingcare.com/Articles/anosognosia-dementia-patients-cant-recognize-impairment-210090.htm

[Pepin]

Just wanted to share that there can be a condition where a person does not have the insight that they have a cognitive disorder. The term is anosognosia.  This article discusses it in relation to alzheimers, and gives a good overview of it.

Definitely not implying your mother has this, but wanted to mention it.

PD parents, when they age, are not immune to any of the other issues that can come with aging, such as cognitive changes, emotional changes, diseases such as Parkinson's, etc..   This undoubtedly makes it even more challenging for any of us who are in their lives as these changes happen.


https://www.agingcare.com/Articles/anosognosia-dementia-patients-cant-recognize-impairment-210090.htm

I looked into this and what she is exhibiting is definitely not this.  It almost seems as though she has a cognitive impairment....seems like lights are on but no one is home type of situation but in actuality the lights are on and someone is home.  I think she doesn't want to admit that she knows because otherwise she won't be visited as frequently.  Doesn't matter if DH gets upset with her or not -- a visit is a visit. 

I have know PDmil for 25 years now and she has been kind of operating this way the entire time.  It is almost childish in a sense....waif like when she wants it to be but otherwise she is very capable.  She knows what she is doing.

[Spring Butterfly]

" waif like when she wants it to be but otherwise she is very capable.  She knows what she is doing."

Absolutely 100% in FOO on both sides. Mine flat out told me they don't feel like reading the manuals they want me to tell them what to do so I pointed them to the manuals for the answers and would tell them what page to find it on

DH sibling is this way too but it's weird. Sib claims to be completely unable to manage the technology yet is the saint in charge of maintaining multiple properties for parents who are in sibs estimation completely unable to care for themselves. The evidence, of course, shows otherwise. They are more than capable and in fact support sib but whatever. Before DH saw it I would just as questions that made the inconsistency obvious but simply left the question hanging with the words "hmm that's odd" and eventually he started to draw his own conclusions. It took him some time to admit it out loud but I could see the lights turning on in his head.

[Pepin]

" waif like when she wants it to be but otherwise she is very capable.  She knows what she is doing."

Absolutely 100% in FOO on both sides. Mine flat out told me they don't feel like reading the manuals they want me to tell them what to do so I pointed them to the manuals for the answers and would tell them what page to find it on

DH sibling is this way too but it's weird. Sib claims to be completely unable to manage the technology yet is the saint in charge of maintaining multiple properties for parents who are in sibs estimation completely unable to care for themselves. The evidence, of course, shows otherwise. They are more than capable and in fact support sib but whatever. Before DH saw it I would just as questions that made the inconsistency obvious but simply left the question hanging with the words "hmm that's odd" and eventually he started to draw his own conclusions. It took him some time to admit it out loud but I could see the lights turning on in his head.

Thanks for this!  It is amazing how they demonstrate where "their" priorities lie.  Like shoot...and if we did that we'd never hear the end of it and be labeled pathetic.  I wish my DH would see the light.  If I could have backed up years ago and used the "hmmmm that's odd" phrase.....too late now.  She's set in her ways with claws firmly set. 

[Leonor]

Hi dear Pepin,

Yes, it's too late for your mil. It always has been too late because her personality is disordered.

It might be too late for your dh ... Only he knows the answer to that.

But it's not too late for *you*. You can say "Hmm" whenever you want! You can change anything about your relationship to this crazy.

And once you change, things shift.

Why not experiment?

[p123]

I've got experience of this.....

Dad can use his satellite TV (Sky in the UK) perfectly. Cooker,microwave etc. no problem.
Why? Because he has to. I live 45 mins away so hes knows I wont run over there.

Mobile/cell phone. He doesnt get it. Why? In his head, so what if he goes out and no-one can contact him its no skin off his nose. Why learn when if theres an emergency SOMEONE ELSE will have a phone. Common thread with Dad.

I remember when he moved into his own place at 58 years of age after being divorced. Refused to get a washing machine. Point blank - how was he supposed to know how it worked?
He even said at the time that men didnt learn these things and that women did it.
His sister, stupidly, said shes do his laundry for him (shes 6 years older). That was the done deal then. 15 years later and she was still doing it oh boy was she sorry. I just say no now if he asks me.....

[Spring Butterfly]

Hi dear Pepin,

Yes, it's too late for your mil. It always has been too late because her personality is disordered.

It might be too late for your dh ... Only he knows the answer to that.

But it's not too late for *you*. You can say "Hmm" whenever you want! You can change anything about your relationship to this crazy.

And once you change, things shift.

Why not experiment?

That's exactly it, gently raise an eyebrow so maybe hubby starts to notice

[1footouttadefog]

I did computer and technology consulting for home office and small business for decades.  I had many many seniors as clients.

Helping with computers spilled over into cable TV, phones, cell phones and similar matters.

I used to turn on the  clients computers and make step by step instructions.  I would sometimes use a sharpie to make drawings of a button or su h on the sheets as well I would print them out.  This gave me a chance to see the printer was working and run some inkthrough the heads so they would not be clogged next time they needed it also.

I would find copies of these pages at other homes that I was reffered to.  They apparently worked.

All this to say, no they wont remember. Ever. No matter how many times you explain it. 

I have elderly friends here that have little books or note books that I add to over the years. 

Some people take a wierd pride in not learning to use technology.  My pdh is one of them.  It's a sick wierd cycle.  We bought him a TV that has Alexa built in to remove a level of remote changing etc.  He wants help looking up certain things but I can see he has been seeking out porn on YouTube.  No one in the house will help him with TV now.

[Leonor]

Here's the thing.

Pepin, this thread has the title "Technology crisis."

Where does "technology" come from? Or even more, "crisis?"

A remote is not cutting-edge technology. There's not, like, a Space-X remote. You stick batteries in it and press the dang button.

And having a new remote is not a crisis. A crisis is an emergency that requires immediate attention by professionals. Having a heart attack is a crisis. One calls a doctor. Having a pipe burst and flood the basement is a crisis. One calls a plumber.

What I mean to say is, your mil sounds the alarm and acts as if she's in crisis, and your dh rushes over as if he's a competent professional.

Over the remote control! Ridiculous!

This isn't the case of a normally functioning older adult who is inconvenienced by a gadget. It's just your mil, being her old mil self.