Sex/intimacy

[bubble1077]

Hi all, my apologies if this subject is 'too far'. I'll not go into a tonne of detail, only the 'necessary'.

There are lots of things my uPD bf does that have led me to believe he may be a PD person, and I'm reading these forums as a lurker, but one thing I haven't found much on so far is sex/intimacy.

Has anyone else experienced the following examples:

- Isn't 'bad in bed' but gets extremely annoyed/angry if you give any suggestions as to what you like

- Sex feeling like it lacks intimacy, no eye contact, no playfulness, preferring positions where they're not actually looking at you

- If there's something you don't like their response is along the lines of "well my ex-wife didn't complain"

- It feels 'mechanical', like a mere 'function' rather than a bonding experience

I'd be interested to know if it's a 'thing'. Outside of the bedroom there are other things I see as signs:

- Conversation always loops back to him
- Over talks/interrupts
- Invalidates feelings
- He can say anything he likes and it's 'just being honest', you give him the mildest constructive criticism and all hell breaks loose
- Tells everyone he's a 'nice guy'
- All his ex's are 'crazy' (I know, should've seen that red flag)
- Doesn't really look at people...kind of looks 'through'?
- Know It All

Am I in the right sort of ballpark here? Ty, Bubble xx

[Boat Babe]

Hi Bubble. Everything you have written is ringing alarm bells, all of it. Maybe you could look at the list of PD traits on the website and see how many you recognize.

Sex is the most intimate thing you can do with another adult and should leave both of you feeling GOOD. (Even a quickie) A brief fling can be intimate and satisfying, even if there is no commitment, when two healthy people come together for a bit of fun.

[bubble1077]

Thanks Boat Babe, I appreciate your reply. I've gone through the 'confusion parts' and am now seeing behaviours in a more 'unvarnished' way.

Your last paragraph resonated with me. It is 'grim'...it hardly makes me want to have sex with him...it just feels very empty. It had been making me feel unattractive. I know that things can go a bit stale in a long term relationship but I thought most fellas were quite visual, and liked to look at the female form...not him though, looks like he'd rather look at anything else in the room but me...it was getting to me, but I'm trying to recognise it for what it is and to not let it get to me. As for the rest of the behaviour I've looked at the stuff about 'medium chill' to deal with some of the behaviour. I'll take a look at that list...feel I need to fully 'get up to speed'....I know I need to leave but feel like there's too much else going on. For now I just need to survive it emotionally as best I can xx

[Associate of Daniel]

Going by my own experience with uNPD exH, and by what I've read, your description of intimacy is very common in pd land.

It's very sad and difficult.

AOD

[Fae Greenwood]

Boy am I glad this site is anonymous. My uNPDh admitted to me, about 2 years ago, that the only part of sex he's ever really liked is ejaculation. I had stopped even trying a few years before that when I realized his position of choice was flat on his back with his hands at his sides. He made me responsible for ALL intimacy in the marriage, physical and emotional. Sex is bot of those things. That explained a whole lot of issues in our sex life. He still insists on sex but since I know that my pleasure and my attachment and my desires have nothing to do with him sexually. I have managed to get him from every three days to now about 10, so that's good.

[Cascade]

Bubble, yes I've experienced some of those things.

Fae, how did you get him down to every ten days? My PDH is in his late 50's and sometimes it seems like he's still in his 20's!

[blunk]

Yes, I believe this is common with PWPDs. I was with my bpdxh for about 20 years, and I don't think we ever once "made love".

Even in speaking about it, he always used some vulgar term. He also never kissed me in any kind of "romantic" way, it was more like a peck on the lips. I made the mistake of asking him about it once, as kissing is something that helps to set the mood for me. His response, we're not a couple of teenagers making out on the couch.

He would often push me to do things that I was not comfortable with. If I didn't I was a prude, and cold; if I did, I was a sl*t and a wh@re. Needless to say, much of the time, I felt frustrated...and used.

[1footouttadefog]

What you described is very familiar to me.

I think that at the beginning of tue marriage I was a sexual novelty to my pd and was likely discarded after the first couple years if marriage.  Things were still okay for quite a while longer but not as they had been.

I had not had other partners so there was nothing to compare to.  I suscribed to a moral system that prevented my seeing the red flags in advanced.

Later I came to realize that my spouse was a porn addict and I was his sex toy he used to play out his fantasies.  As time went on he did not want interaction and my participation was eventually seen as an interuption on his concentrating on what was in his head.

Again it took me a long time to figure things out. 

Over time the non looking positions, and lazy positions were more a part of things.  He even at some point quit touching me accept for a single point of contact if he could get away with it.  At some point I started occaisionally doing stupid things like cracking nuts, or filing my nails and watching tv or reading a magazine to see if it would bother him.

At some point ED became and issue and I was the warm up for his party of one. I decided his party of one needed no  warm up and quit bothering to initiate.  He never really asked. 

In several arguments about him not showing effection, etc he used ED as an excuse.  I said there is more to it than that and that he was depriving me of what I was entitled to as a married woman.  In short, I was told to outsource.

What you describe is something that is hurtful and dehumanizing, and certainly not a fullfilling sexual relationship by most peoples standards.  At any time a couple may opt for eazy, lazy and or simplicity to get a purely physical release, but it should not be the entirety of the relationship unless both partners want it that way.

In the end you get to decide if its enough for you and if the marriage is fulfilling and working or not.

I have elected to stay to raise my kids and have lived as a single woman with an adult child/roomate for over a decade.

I see light at the end if the tunnel and my youngest is in college,  and  my spouse now has dementia and I am his gardian.

I will take care of him and see to his needs as I would a child.  I feel no moral obligations as a wife because he discontinued that so long ago when still competent.  I was not the denier, he was.
Despite this I still felt guilt over him being sexless. Likely in part due to my religious upbringing, as all marriage problems are solved by making sure the husband gets enough sex.

These things are not often discussed but if you search there are some threads about them.

[bubble1077]

Thank you all for taking the time out to join in with the topic I posted, it means a lot. Every post is so raw and heartbreaking in it's own way. I hope all of us in our own way can find a level of peace.

Reading your responses has been a big part of my 'lightbulb moment'. There's so much out there about day to day behaviours, but it's this stuff that just didn't add up for me. I figured that even a man who could be quite horrible would enjoy sex, and sort of 'forget themselves' at that time, but I guess I wasn't factoring in a potential PD...but it totally makes sense. That odd 'blankness', their eyes screwed shut as if they can't bear to look at you, lack of any feeling of connection...just so...boring, boring because there's no real passion.

It's the same with his laugh, I have never really heard him laugh, y'know, like a proper 'laugh until you cry' laugh...I summise that laughing is also about connection, hence why that doesn't happen either!

I can't believe I've been sat here baffled for so long...but starting to see sense now I'm here, so thank you all so much xx

[Dollydrops]

Hi bubble,
Of all the research I've done I've found this is a biggie for PWD.
A little on my experience, I married when I was very young and he was the the first for me. The first time was straight to the point kind of 'there you go its been consummated ' and over in minutes. After that it became a demand and the biggest bane of my marriage. I never once had an encounter with him where I felt we'd connected in a loving way. It started with him telling me what I needed to do to him, then I'd be told 'tonight we're watching a movie so you can copy everything' . I hated it but never dare say no in dread of the impending silent treatment for days after having the ' if you love me you'll want to do it' talk. He would go through every instruction like he was watching a movie, my birthday presents would be underwear of the not so romantic kind for 'MY birthday night present'. He would try to get me to do things which were degrading and make me feel a bad wife if I said I was uncomfortable with it, and then ask me to kiss him romantically so that it felt loving. I always knew none of it felt right, I never once kissed him feeling romantic but just went along with the thoughts that he's like this because he was dumped by the one before me so he's insecure, that's what he would tell me. He never once looked in my eyes, would say 'that looks lovely' if I wore the underwear, I'd  have to parade around the room and show it off to him, note 'that' rather than 'you'. The whole time he would have vacant eyes, like he was somewhere else, clearly acting out a script. I'd arrive at vacations to find he'd unpacked clothes to make room for sex toys making the whole holiday about his own requirements and would spend the whole time having to tell him what we'd be doing later because he said it was romantic. A little detailed I know, but all on the same lines that for them its about the end product and their own needs.
When I, after some years and ED set in
( because I started saying no) He changed tack, and asked me why don't we make love anymore? I calmly told him, making love is something we have never done. The rest of my years with him were sexless because to him it was his way or not at all.

[tragedy or hope]

hmmm... I am comforted by the fact that I do not live this unpdh in a vacuum, others are here too.

It seems there are variations to this behavior but it is still all about them. Even if I did get some positive attention, in my later years I have realized it was a manipulation for my affections.

I am "told" I am loved everyday. In fact, I get a literal report of the things he's done each day because "he loves me.." Every thing he does is "because he loves me." However, any conversation about lack of intimacy physical or otherwise is met with childish silence, or childish frustration.

My heart goes out to you, and I appreciate your honesty. I have felt for years that I am being punished. When I came to this site, I learned it could be true. They will do what they need to do to their "responder," to keep us hanging on.

This for me is a chosen relationship. Like others here I made a spiritual commitment. I too married young. My kids are "proud" of their parents now going on 1/2 a decade. They face their own problems. The silence I have kept about my plight is deafening to me. I am so glad you are all here. God bless you as you have quiet needs.

[SparkStillLit]

NOT a vacuum. These things with slight variation are true for me as well.
I thought for such a long time it was just ME and I didn't know what to make of it.
I married younger as well. I'd only been a few years out of the PD FOO house. I just had no idea.
My kids have their own issues as well. At least they know and get help and try to help each other.
But yes, I definitely have this experience. It is not pleasant, and I'm just now working my way through boundaries around it.

[JustKeepTrying]

Such a tough subject.  Difficult to talk about but important.  I was married for decades to my OCPDex.  Sex was difficult, unfulfilling and you are right about the eyes.  I found it robotic and they would never respond to my requests.  There was no romance, just a grab and a leer which I think they thought was funny.   

There is much to say here but I want to be careful.  I married young and my upbringing was such that sex was not for enjoyment but out of duty and conception.  Keep em happy kind of thing.  So it has made it hard for me to understand that sex in my marriage was not what other people were experiencing.

Since I left I reconnected with an old friend.  We text frequently and they live quite a distance away.  I have not had any face to face with them since my divorce.  Yet in those texts, and phone calls, I have had more friendship and intimacy (love/support) than I had in the whole marriage (and there has been nothing sexual in our communication).  This connection has underscored that sex is a real connection - intimacy is more than the act.  Greater than the whole.

Like mentioned before, it should and can be when approached with mutual respect, love and consent.

[SparkStillLit]

I don't know if others have this experience, and I'll keep it light, but it is very much for them and they refuse to use their own imagination or think their own thoughts, and it's very much like being a live audiobook where I have to keep up a running verbalization of whatever they want. It's bizarre. Certainly not romantic.
I have found myself thinking *surely* others do not do this. Wishing for quiet like in the movies.

[TooLiteral]

I get a lot of manipulation around sex. There are jokes that make me feel gross (I'll be talking about something that happemed to me at the store or whatever and he interrupts me to say "I'm sorry, all I heard was how much you want to s*** my d***.") or long, drawn out dramas about how he has no motivation for the day and when I try to help with efforts to make him food or help him with his list of things to do, he says "I was thinking of something more horizontal." Ugh. It turns me off. Completely. Utterly. And when we do have sex, there's no joy. No fun. No happiness. It's so serious.

I feel like you are spot on. The unifying theme here is total lack of consideration for OUR feelings. And with sex, that is imperative. Your body is YOURS. He is not entitled to it in any way shape or form. If you are not getting what you want out of sex with him, don't do it. The end.