Why do they stalk / barge into rooms without/against permission?

[JollyJazz]

Hi All,

I'm just musing on the general phenomenon of PDs stalking and barging into rooms without permission.

Like many of us here, I've been stalked by my PD parents for years. Growing up my mother would constantly barge into my bedroom, sometimes I would move furniture in front of the door so she couldn't get in, and I just remember her furiously barging against it with all her might. Then storming off with a shriek of frustration.

They really do seem to have an obsession with violating others personal space and are seriously affronted by any requests for personal boundaries.

I'm just opening the general discussion here on this phenomenon.
FTR: not asking for advice on what to do with my stalking parents, I have this under control 

Any insights or thoughts on why PDs stalk and violate personal space welcome!

[SonofThunder]

Hello JollyJazz:  My opinions below. 

PD's violate personal space to;

1. Try to stay in control of others (of time, physical space and drama creation)
2. To stay on offense (vs defense) to stay #1
3. To catch others in supposed wrongdoing (to make them feel better about them)
4. To keep others on-edge (#1 and 2 included) and off-balance. 
5. To make themselves feel important and worthwhile to themselves.
6. To make themselves feel in control of their own lives. (By controlling others see #1)
7. To feel more powerful than others. 

The hypocrisy is imo, that deep inside themselves, they feel unworthy.  So instead of focusing on dealing with their own deep issues in honesty, the learn early on in life to claw everyone else and hide those internal issues by masking them behind the facade of 1-7 and many others as is found here in the toolbox.  To those who are not understanding of the ways of a PD, it is very confusing, unnerving and off-balance.  But to us who are Out of the FOG, the knowledge has allowed us to walk behind the seemingly, put-together, in-control and cunning outward appearance of the PD, and know that behind that hypocritical facade are the messy ruins of a terrible self image.

SoT 

[Cat of the Canals]

I think SonofThunder hit on all the "ego-pleasing" reasons they do it. I just wanted to add that there may be a cognitive element as well. People with BPD are said to have the emotionally maturity of somewhere between 2-3 years old. NPD is more like 5 or 6. Children at that age have a tendency to think of themselves as the center of the universe. Everything is "happening" to them, and they are often very fixated on things belonging to them. And when they WANT something, they think they are entitled to it.

I think a lot of PDs see their children this way. As toys or belongings or props to do whatever they want with, whenever they please.

My unPD mil had a tendency to drive 1.5 hours to our house with no notice and just expected us to be there to entertain her. On one occasion, we left just before she arrived. When she knocked on our door and got no answer and saw that our car was gone, she sent a barrage of texts demanding to know where we were. I asked my husband, "She realizes that we're adults, right? With our own lives?" He said, "No, I don't think she does. I don't think anything outside of her own life really exists to her."

This ended up happening multiple times with us and with my BIL, and she never learned the lesson. Never figured out that it would be more convenient and practical (if not considerate) to arrange a visit before driving an hour and a half. And I believe it's because when she woke up in the morning and decided she wanted to visit that day, and once she had that "want," it was like a toddler deciding they want their favorite red ball. The idea that the ball might not be available right now is inconceivable.

[SonofThunder]

Cat of the Canals, the reasoning you make, and example you experience in your unPDmil is great input and a keen observation.  It's interesting how PD's can operate in ways, such as your example, and never learn. 

You wrote: "I asked my husband, "She realizes that we're adults, right? With our own lives?" He said, "No, I don't think she does. I don't think anything outside of her own life really exists to her."

The comment you made is great example of what it feels like from the Non's perspective and your husbands response is the boiled-down basics of what you describe; the inability of PD's to understand concepts outside their own mental orbit of possession and control.  I personally believe what you describe is all a part of the constant "fear of abandonment" that happens inside the PD's mind. 

I received a great learning experience of the fear-of-abandonment concept with my uPDw in a 90 day 'healing-separation' from my uPDw back in 2018, that didn't last the full 90 days, as the benefit of the separation happened sooner, just after the 60 day mark.  The fear of abandonment in my uPDw surfaced immediately and was emotionally crippling for my uPDw.  The pigeon-holed world of the facade of self-control my uPDw lives within, went instantly to shards.   Your well made point in which the PD really believes that all things and people are possessions that exist to serve them, but when that self-controlled solar system of theirs is even slightly out of kilter it's "Houston we have a problem".  When that occurs, their mental world can immediate spiral out of control, and the accusations begin to fly, as they are oblivious to the reality that the world does not operate outside of the child-like mentality you describe. 

SoT

[JollyJazz]

Hi Sonofthunder and CatofCanals,

Thanks so much for your thoughts and insight.

My PD mother in particular has this desire to violate personal space to am extent that is pathological.
Growing up she would barge into my room on a daily basis.
As an adult she would randomly turn up where I live, after I had asked her not to, barge into my bedroom, shout etc.
It really affects my feeling of safety and comfort even now.
I've struggled to put permanent roots down anywhere due to fear of being hunted down.
Last time she did it, she burst into my bedroom when I was in bed and grabbed my leg.

I'm in the process of healing from this insane behavior from my mother, so insight into why she does this is a good thing.

She does realise it upsets me, and has a very strong sense of entitlement to do it. I do think she is affronted by the idea of boundaries, and it's coming from a very irrational, childlike place. If she wasn't so aggressive and overbearing, of she respected my boundaries, I might feel comfortable inviting her over. But she isn't and I don't.

[Cat of the Canals]

If she wasn't so aggressive and overbearing, of she respected my boundaries, I might feel comfortable inviting her over. But she isn't and I don't.

This really hits home, because there are still times when I wonder if I'm being selfish. But what we're asking for is SO simple. You're asking for so little: Please respect my space. And not only do PDs generally refuse to respect these boundaries, they act offended that we'd even suggest we have a right to them in the first place.

I don't blame you one bit for not wanting her in your home. I feel exactly the same way and neither my PD mother or mil have ever violated my space quite so aggressively as your mother has done to yours.

[JollyJazz]

Yes, the reaction to boundaries from PDs is so telling isn't it? A few months ago I got a full on reaction from a (now ex) PD friend regarding a boundary I set about not passing on very personal information.

Thanks for the validation!!! I can't wait to get my own place ☺️ where she can't find me!!!

[blues_cruise]

I remember how awful this was, not to mention terrifying at times. I'm so sorry you've have to deal with this. My father thought nothing of waking me up in the middle of the night to burst into my bedroom in a rage and if I was in bed and I heard him kicking off about something I would put furniture up against my door too. I think it's a control thing - parents with NPD see their children as an extension of themselves/a possession, so don't respect their child's right to autonomy or privacy. They also have difficulty self regulating their emotions so when they're in a rage they're fixated on taking it out on someone else to feel better, regardless of whether this involves violating their child's personal space.

I don't blame you for not inviting your mother over as it doesn't sound like she has any concept of boundaries whatsoever. As a kid there's not much you can do about it and it's very damaging, however as an adult you are entitled to protect your safe place and only invite respectful, healthy people into your home on your own terms and when it's convenient for you. Having locks everywhere really helps and can give you a lot of peace of mind. I've made it very difficult now for anyone to simply let themselves into my home without being invited - if they don't call beforehand to check it's convenient then they're wasting their own time. 

[Hazy111]

Son of thunder hits it on the head the myriad reasons going on inside their heads. I remember this in my family.

I went out with a Borderline once and i was told the running family joke about how she had "removed" her sons bedroom door when he was a teenager. 

[SonofThunder]

Hello again. I want to insert a thought into this thread. The insertionis a little off topic, as we are exploring JollyJazz's original post about why PD's violate personal space, but I believe it's applicable.  It is always good to find ways to protect ourselves from PD behaviors, and I want to reference some comments made so far in this thread, regarding boundaries.

JollyJazz wrote: "regarding a boundary I set about not passing on very personal information."

Cat of the Canals wrote : "...And not only do PDs generally refuse to respect these boundaries".

Properly constructed boundaries on ourselves are not able to be overcome by PD's.  Properly constructed boundaries are not built to try and control the actions and/or reactions of others, but rather only to control the actions and/or reactions of ourselves.  Therefore, we don't require that PD's respect our own boundaries, as they have no choice regarding properly constructed boundaries.  PD's do not need to know what boundaries we have created for ourselves, as that private information is an easy roadmap for PDs to explore the thrill of violation. 

For a general space violation example:  if personal space violation is occurring, the boundary on ourselves is to not put ourselves in the position to have our space violated.  Space violators will violate whatever space they are allowed to violate, so the key to protecting ourselves is to remove the ability to violate ourselves.  Example:

If a known space violator is initially allowed into a non's rightfully occupied space (non's home for example) The non's boundary on themselves is they will always lock a door when they require privacy and tell the known violator that you will not accept being interrupted, or the interrupters will be asked to leave the home.  If interrupted, the space violator will be immediately requested to leave the premises and told they are not permitted on the premise in the future.  In some extreme cases, if the space violator refuses to leave upon request, the non should call the police and explain that this person will not leave their home, and the police will come and remove the violator from the non's rightfully owned/rented space.   If the violator also co-owns/rents the space (roommate or spouse), then the non will remove themselves from the premises, immediately after forewarned space violation occurs and decide if they will return.  As you can read in this example, the PD violator was simply forewarned regarding the potential action and/or reaction of the non.  The non does not utilize the word 'boundary' in the forewarning, but knows to themselves, that they designed a proper protective boundary for themselves.  This requires nothing from the PD violator and full self control is in the hands of the non.

With regard to private information being shared:

Upon realizing that another person is unable to contain private information that we own, then our boundary on ourselves is that no private information should ever again be shared with this person. If the relationship with that person is mainly focused on this type of conversation, then we may decide for ourselves, to end the relationship.  There is no ability to share what has not been shared. 

In addition we non's should (imo) define for ourselves what constitutes private information.  Private information can be gossip or not gossip.  Imo, gossip is about 'intent' and not defined by whether what is being shared is truth or potential fiction.  It is also defined by its 'result' in being shared (does it help another or hurt another).  So therefore the boundary on ourselves may be we do not share private information, that is not ours to share (intent and result) to anyone, violator or not.

Finally, it is understood, that minors are generally NOT able to accomplish the space violation protection above, as they do not own the space in which they reside and for minors, this is a huge problem. Therefore, in the event of a PD violating the space of a minor, the potential responsible adult-non in the home, has the requirement (if legally bound to caring for the minor) of protecting the minor and therefore a different set of boundaries, both for the protection of the minor and the non, may need to be created. 

Again, just wanted to point out, in this conversation, that proper boundaries only control the actions and/or reactions of ourselves and not another person.

SoT

[tragedy or hope]

I just know this; sometimes it is next to impossible to deal with these situations. I cannot get out of bed without the unpdh being aware and hopping out of bed with me sometimes.

In theory all the ideas here are good one. I will try some of them and have done so.

For me the resulting behavior of the unpdh comes out in other strange and strained ways. He becomes more needy, annoying as a child who has been shunned would be.

I believe there can be a balance.

For those of us who are working on it (for ourselves) I have found a brief positive reinforcement as with a child works well. "I am going to do thus and such, and would like to be uninterrupted. I will close the door, etc... do not knock."  "What will you be doing while I am unavailable?... oh, good idea... you have wanted to that for awhile..." anything to put some attention on him before I take care of me. It worked with children and most of the time works with him.

I know every time I steal attention or time for myself in the same room or otherwise I will deal with a child who demands something from me. I try to circumvent it. I raised 3 sons this way..... if only their father would get it, but he won't.

Not only does he talk ABOUT things in my life to others but he also steals my thoughts. He has nothing to say in public unless I have shared some thought or information he has not pursued himself. it is pitiful. Sometimes he will get the jump on some topic when we are with others so he appears to be interesting. But it is something i have shared previously so it appears he is the originator of the interest.

My solution.... I don't go out with him much if at all anymore and he knows  because i have told him, it's either him talking about himself, weasling the conversation to talk about his veteran status, (3 years, about 45 years ago) or my thoughts that have impressed him enough to share.

I am flabbergasted at how efficient he is at rounding the conversation onto himself. Recently, at dinner (only one in about 3 years) with people outside the family, he managed to get in that he was in a bible study (he is a relgious N.) when someone said something that was related to the conversation we were having. There was no need to bring up his piety, but... he was trying to turn the conversation to himself and his religiousness. I quickly changed the subject by asking the people something about themselves.

I have to say it is brain games the whole time. I cannot address it without a fight, he knows he is doing it and can't admit it, and the whole time is an unspoken competition to keep the conversation open and not just about him. He will take over in a heartbeat. He really thinks people come to see HIM not to share an evening.

This has been a lifelong issue, and I know so much about his wierdness. I did not know what I was dealing with until about a year or so ago. I had NO IDEA he had a disorder. i just found ways of dealing with it. Some not so good but live and learn. I could have gotten out about 25 years ago, but my faith and tenacity kept me from unraveling my children's lives.

They are truly empty people and they do not change, so we must.

Once again I thank God for all of you here who get it. 

[JollyJazz]

Hi Sonofthunder,

Thanks for the good points on boundaries.

Just got clarification, I wasn't aware that my friend was PD when I expressed by boundary on sharing personal information. But her reaction to it sure confirmed it. I've gone no contact with this person now!

PD's do not need to know what boundaries we have created for ourselves, as that private information is an easy roadmap for PDs to explore the thrill of violation.

Yes, I think you are bang on about PDs using boundaries as a way to torment.

My PD mother knows it upsets me that she violates my privacy. Asking her not to come over without permission doesn't work at all. She has repeatedly done this. At the moment, to protect myself, I have just not given her my address. The situation is that bad. About 6 months ago she tricked an acquaintance into giving her my address which is when she barged into my bedroom. She knew it upset me.

I remember a counselor telling me to express how my parents / siblings actions made me feel (to them) in order to ask them to stop. But actually, I explained to her that there was no point, as that's what they want to do, to hurt.

You're quite right. Tactics that work for healthy people don't work the same with PDs. This is why we have restraining orders and trespass notices 

[SonofThunder]

JollyJazz,

My apologies if my writing came across as stating that information was possibly being shared with a person in whom it was known could not keep information private.  I was trying to state that upon finding out that fact, the boundary is not asking a person to not share private info (trying to place a boundary on another), but rather to place a boundary on ourselves, which you surely placed a boundary on yourself in that case by going nc.   The other simple boundary on ourselves, if we do not wish to go nc, is to not reveal private information to people who have a history of sharing that information.

You wrote " I remember a counselor telling me to express how my parents / siblings actions made me feel (to them) in order to ask them to stop. But actually, I explained to her that there was no point, as that's what they want to do, to hurt."   

This is a very good illustration of how your understanding of boundaries, is correct vs the counselor.  Sure, with two mentally healthy individuals, the counselors advice may be productive. But then again, with two mentally healthy individuals, the conversation probably would not be necessary in the first place.  Your insightful comment that your parents/sibs intentionally do this, is spot on.  Providing a response such as the counselors is like handing an easy road map to hurt and manipulation, directly to the PD.   If they know what gets under your skin, they focus on that area particularly, and in very covert and persistent ways. 

You are exactly right to use your understanding of their hurtful actions, to design good self-protective boundaries.  I actually had to do this with my elderly uNPDfather yesterday.  He may be 81, but his PD behavior is as pronounced as ever.  There is a very old piece of land for sale in which I have a part to play in the sale, and we must communicate frequently.  When talking on the phone with my father, he knows that my being interrupted in mid-sentence is something that will get under my skin.  So, he decided to ramp it up a notch and began interrupting me with the repeated words "stop talking". 

I calmly expressed to him that I would continue to allow him to finish each thought, in proper conversation on the topic but that I would not tolerate being interrupted again.  I then instructed him that the next time he interrupted me in mid-sentence, I would politely be done with the conversation and end the call.  I also instructed him that if I received the words "stop talking" I would say "text me instead. goodbye"  and immediately hang up and that only texts would be responded to, until I was ready to try a voice call again.  We quickly finished our chat with no interruption violations and I have not heard from him further, which in his mind is punishing me by not communicating.  Haha he doesn't realize that silent treatment is only effective if you are in sight-of or earshot-of the person being subjected.  The gift of true silence is very enjoyable. 

SoT

[JollyJazz]

Hi Sonofthunder,

Your points are excellent, absolutely spot on, on an important point.
Definitely no need to apologize.

I learnt a lot from the BPD information sharer. There were red flags that I'll look out for next time (her sharing other people's very personal information) and also that I could feel myself slipping very much into caregiver mode about her tales of woe in the workplace. After she raged at me horribly after I made a politely worded boundary request, I decided to cut contact  I did realise that she couldn't be trusted to keep information private either.

Another thing I've found is sharing things I like, my parents and siblings would try and interfere with these things, or somehow take over, compete.

I really like your points on personal boundary setting. I think you did a great job with your father. It's so empowering for us!

[underthebridge]

Oh, my gosh. For years, I tried to get my BPDw to quit coming into the bathroom when I was in there with the door closed. To no avail. Instead, she acted like the boundary was unreasonable and insisted she have access to the bathroom at all times because, "I need to go to the bathroom." We literally have 2 other bathrooms in our house. She would passive-aggressively come into the bathroom when I was in the bathtub and say, "Oh, is it OK if I come in?" when she was ALREADY IN THE ROOM. One T suggested locking the door. The T clearly didn't understand that that would lead to a rage response when she couldn't get in. I finally just gave up. I've finally left the relationship and now dealing with all the boundary-busting aftermath of leaving.

[wisingup]

I missed this thread when it started a couple months ago, but glad I have seen it.  My updm did this too.  As a teen, my  bedroom door faced my parents door across a loft area & I liked to have it closed to have privacy.  Mom would enter without knocking & would sort of "burst" in, to convey that she was annoyed at the door being closed.  I was an extremely obedient, mild-mannered kid & there is no possibility she thought I was "up to something" in there - usually I would be lying on my bed reading or possibly talking on the phone to friends.

As a small child, I asked her to let me wear a bathing suit in the bathtub because she would come in every time to wash my hair.  I got laughed at for that & it was clear that basically I was not allowed to protect myself in any manner from her.  Ugh, as I write this I'm feeling so icky about this & so sad for this kid who just wanted a tiny bit of control over being exposed.  And why was I so embarrassed in front of my mother anyway?  Because she was so weird and embarrassed about body stuff herself.

[square]

I wonder if this could also be a form of arrested development.

A healthy mother-infant relationship has full enmeshment and no boundaries at first. The infant's needs are met (milk, warmth, being changed, being put in a safe place to sleep) regardless of the mother being tired, distracted, not feeling well, or preferring to engage in another activity.

How shocking it would be to an infant to be told, in effect, mummy isn't going to take care of you right now because mummy has her own stuff going on.

Perhaps some PDs are stuck in this stage. Feeling helpless at their core (perhaps buried deeply under narcissistic bravado, or right out front in borderline or dependents) they parentify the chosen parent replacements (including and perhaps especially their own children) and are threatened on the very scale of survival when the parent object has their own needs, wants, space, time, body.

[JollyJazz]

Hi Under the bridge, I totally hear you on the acting like a boundary is unreasonable and even T's that don't understand.. they might have had a nice family that could talk about problems. They don't know what it's like to have someone violate your space again and again.

I feel like it's just this point they have to make, my M is like, 'you can't ever get away from me, and what's more, you have NO RIGHT to have your own space, how dare you? '  They acts like THEY are the aggrieved party when we say 'no' to them!

[JollyJazz]

Hi Wisingup,

I'm so sorry that you had to go through these things too. My mother wouldn't let me have a bath alone - right up until puberty  it makes me feel so yucky and embarrassed to think about. She did this to my brother too. I'm sorry to hear that you went through this too 😞 you were just trying to protect yourself. If it helps I have some sense of what you felt.

And the barging into the bedroom. It's appalling. I'm so sorry that you had to endure this.

I'm still feeling from the last time my mother did this - tracking down my address and barging into my bedroom - I'm 39 years old. I just feel hunted. It's insane and horrible. It's embarrassing.

[JollyJazz]

Hi Square,

Yes it's very strange isn't it? It seems to be an extremely persistent PD pattern - the 'no boundaries' thing. Like, no boundaries for us - but they are allowed to have them...

It is weird childlike behavior. I guess it's some small comfort to know we aren't alone...