Narcissistic parents who deny the covid virus (& don't follow rules)

[MarlenaEve]

Hi guys.

I was wondering if anyone else here has a PD parent who keeps denying that there is a covid19 virus circling around and doing damage.
At first when my PD dad was denying the virus and saying that it's all a lie that the government wants us to believe in and there's nothing going on, I kind of believed him (he sounded very opinionated). He kept saying that because he worked with people for months and came in contact with many clients he could have gotten the virus easily (but he didn't)/ Now he keeps complaining that everything is a lie and there is not even proof that the virus exists. He still believes this although his nephew called him and told him how bad his covid symptoms were and his OWN son had covid as well.

Do you have PD parents who say this too? Why do you think they are in such a big denial in spite that they are being shown concrete proof of the opposite of what they believe? Dad is also in the vulnerable group and he refuses to get the vax. He actually puts himself in danger daily due to his mentality.

I tell you that on my first day in NC I'll open a bottle of champagne to celebrate my newfound freedom from these twisted people.
Sorry for using the word twisted but I can't find another word that would describe this mentality.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I don't follow the "rules" either generally speaking. In my area they are not the law like in many places, more of a strong suggestion without any consequences or enforcement. I believe in mutual consent and informed consent, and that there are other valid reasons to make choices other than physical safety from what is 95-99% of the time an illness not requiring hospitalization, per the CDC. Being physically well is not the only good. Some of my friends take covid more seriously. That's their right. I've also decided to accept the risk of the virus rather than the largely unknown risks of the shot. I'm saying all that to simply out myself. You may choose to dismiss anything I have to say as a result. But I'm also speaking up because I have seen a disturbing trend regarding covid that takes for granted that any reasonable person will be on lockdown, and anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts. So I think it's time to be more open.

People can believe what they choose to. If it puts themselves at risk, well we see that all the time. People are still allowed to smoke, for example. Adults are allowed to make choices we disagree with. If we believe they are harmful to us, we can choose to distance ourselves as it looks like you intend to do.

I have no idea how my parents are handling COVID, since I was NC well before. I guess I always assumed they'd be really into the safety theater and double masking wearing gloves while they ran to the store for a single item like always. But that's simply speculation. I could be spot on or completely unfair. Guess I'll never know. It's hard to imagine having common ground with my uPD parents in any area. Which is not in fact reality, I'm sure there are many areas we do agree. But not enough to salvage the relationship in our case.

If covid is the last straw for you, it's an accumulation of many many painful interactions. I agree with you that the stance of, "I haven't been affected, so it must not be real," is extremely narcissistic!

[Cat of the Canals]

My brother and sister-in-law work in a healthcare, so they both took it really seriously. My parents "claimed" to take it seriously, but there were a few weeks where they weren't allowed to see my nephews (both very young) and NPD/BPD mom was whining non-stop about my brother being "like a cop" even though there was a state mandate at the time.

Eventually my brother told my parents that if they were very good about self-isolating for a week, they could come over and see the kids. But my dad kept going to the grocery store every 1-2 days, and his response was essentially, "What's the problem?" when they'd call him on it. Another time, my mom was taking care of her friend who had surgery. Because she'd been in the hospital and exposed to a lot of different people, it was again decided that mom should isolate for a week afterward. After two days of "isolation," she tried to just show up at my brother's house without warning because she was bored and feeling left out.

My uPD mil also claimed to take it very seriously, which mostly seemed to be harshly judging anyone she saw not wearing masks or not wearing them correctly. She continued trying to get us to allow her to visit - 1300 miles away, and at the time most places were closed or at limited capacity, not to mention we had a visitor quarantine that meant she technically wouldn't have been allowed to leave her hotel room for the duration. As soon as she'd had one of her two vaccinations, she told my husband "covid is over." This was conveniently in the middle of a conversation where she was AGAIN trying to demand that we allow her to visit. What she actually meant was that covid was over for HER and that we could no longer use it as an excuse to not see her.

So even when they believe (or claim to believe) in the seriousness of the virus, if it conflicts with their sense of entitlement, the entitlement seems to win.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I think you are right about the strength of entitlement with PD individuals, Cat. I do not have the right to come to someone's home when they do not want me there, whatever the reason. Yikes. And Covid has been the impetus for many of us tightening our personal boundaries, so it stands to reason that many of us would witness boundary-busting behavior relative to covid.

[moglow]

Whether it's this or any other subject on which you disagree, you can always decline further discussion about it and (at least you) agree to disagree. They bring it up, you change the subject or end the conversation. Every time or they may think "now isn't the time" instead of there's not going to be a time. They're entitled to an opinion just like anyone else, and you don't need to be convinced of anything.

Some people throw up a roadblock just to be contrary and test us, others (mine) love nothing better than a good fight where they can claim superiority. Doesn't really matter as long as we remember our boundaries are OURS, and we get to decide what's best for us and our families. They simply have a different opinion and that's fine.

Make it clear you're not interested or participating in a debate, the subject is closed. Polite but firm, then "how's your garden going now the temps are easing into spring?" Every return to those subjects is met with innocuous nonconfrontational conversation or you end it entirely.

Just an aside - no contact truly isnt for the faint of heart and sometimes there's just nothing left (or we have to admit there never was). I've yet to find anything to toast but granted it's early days yet. I could deal with twisted thinking and even understand on some level, it's the outright abuse and steamroller no matter what I did or said. I'm invisible to my own mother and that's just painful. Such a sad waste of so many years, with nothing to do for it.

[MarlenaEve]

Whether it's this or any other subject on which you disagree, you can always decline further discussion about it and (at least you) agree to disagree. They bring it up, you change the subject or end the conversation. Every time or they may think "now isn't the time" instead of there's not going to be a time. They're entitled to an opinion just like anyone else, and you don't need to be convinced of anything.

Some people throw up a roadblock just to be contrary and test us, others (mine) love nothing better than a good fight where they can claim superiority. Doesn't really matter as long as we remember our boundaries are OURS, and we get to decide what's best for us and our families. They simply have a different opinion and that's fine.

Make it clear you're not interested or participating in a debate, the subject is closed. Polite but firm, then "how's your garden going now the temps are easing into spring?" Every return to those subjects is met with innocuous nonconfrontational conversation or you end it entirely.

Just an aside - no contact truly isnt for the faint of heart and sometimes there's just nothing left (or we have to admit there never was). I've yet to find anything to toast but granted it's early days yet. I could deal with twisted thinking and even understand on some level, it's the outright abuse and steamroller no matter what I did or said. I'm invisible to my own mother and that's just painful. Such a sad waste of so many years, with nothing to do for it.

Thanks, moglow. Sometimes changing subjects works, sometimes it doesn't. I once politely told my father that I am not willing to discuss X matter with him, and he became so angry and offensive. I can't believe someone would react like this just because someone isn't willing to carry his favourite type of conversation.

[MarlenaEve]

I don't follow the "rules" either generally speaking. In my area they are not the law like in many places, more of a strong suggestion without any consequences or enforcement. I believe in mutual consent and informed consent, and that there are other valid reasons to make choices other than physical safety from what is 95-99% of the time an illness not requiring hospitalization, per the CDC. Being physically well is not the only good. Some of my friends take covid more seriously. That's their right. I've also decided to accept the risk of the virus rather than the largely unknown risks of the shot. I'm saying all that to simply out myself. You may choose to dismiss anything I have to say as a result. But I'm also speaking up because I have seen a disturbing trend regarding covid that takes for granted that any reasonable person will be on lockdown, and anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts. So I think it's time to be more open.

People can believe what they choose to. If it puts themselves at risk, well we see that all the time. People are still allowed to smoke, for example. Adults are allowed to make choices we disagree with. If we believe they are harmful to us, we can choose to distance ourselves as it looks like you intend to do.

I have no idea how my parents are handling COVID, since I was NC well before. I guess I always assumed they'd be really into the safety theater and double masking wearing gloves while they ran to the store for a single item like always. But that's simply speculation. I could be spot on or completely unfair. Guess I'll never know. It's hard to imagine having common ground with my uPD parents in any area. Which is not in fact reality, I'm sure there are many areas we do agree. But not enough to salvage the relationship in our case.

If covid is the last straw for you, it's an accumulation of many many painful interactions. I agree with you that the stance of, "I haven't been affected, so it must not be real," is extremely narcissistic!

I understand. But my father denies everything about the virus in spite of being shown concrete evidence supporting it (his nephew's extreme symptoms, his son's experience etc). He does this with everything else: eg his brother in law is a wife beater. He beats his wife daily. My mother often worries about her (her sister) and hates this guy. However, my father doesn't think domestic violence is a big deal and keeps talking with this violent abuser over the phone every day like they were best friends. He subconsciously denies that brother in law is an abuser who should be reported to the police.

[MarlenaEve]

My brother and sister-in-law work in a healthcare, so they both took it really seriously. My parents "claimed" to take it seriously, but there were a few weeks where they weren't allowed to see my nephews (both very young) and NPD/BPD mom was whining non-stop about my brother being "like a cop" even though there was a state mandate at the time.

Eventually my brother told my parents that if they were very good about self-isolating for a week, they could come over and see the kids. But my dad kept going to the grocery store every 1-2 days, and his response was essentially, "What's the problem?" when they'd call him on it. Another time, my mom was taking care of her friend who had surgery. Because she'd been in the hospital and exposed to a lot of different people, it was again decided that mom should isolate for a week afterward. After two days of "isolation," she tried to just show up at my brother's house without warning because she was bored and feeling left out.

My uPD mil also claimed to take it very seriously, which mostly seemed to be harshly judging anyone she saw not wearing masks or not wearing them correctly. She continued trying to get us to allow her to visit - 1300 miles away, and at the time most places were closed or at limited capacity, not to mention we had a visitor quarantine that meant she technically wouldn't have been allowed to leave her hotel room for the duration. As soon as she'd had one of her two vaccinations, she told my husband "covid is over." This was conveniently in the middle of a conversation where she was AGAIN trying to demand that we allow her to visit. What she actually meant was that covid was over for HER and that we could no longer use it as an excuse to not see her.

So even when they believe (or claim to believe) in the seriousness of the virus, if it conflicts with their sense of entitlement, the entitlement seems to win.

Wow, your mother coming to your brother's house after 2 days of isolation is definitely narcissistic. They can't seem to understand how their actions may have long-term negative consequences on others.

[GettingOOTF]

Whether it's this or any other subject on which you disagree, you can always decline further discussion about it and (at least you) agree to disagree.

This. Part of my healing has been that I simply don't engage in discussions like this with others. There are certain things that form who I am and I won't waste time trying to convince others or have them try to convince me otherwise.

I have found this approach very effective at getting problematic people to remove themselves from my life. When I don't give them the supply they are after they eventually move on to someone who does.

I simply won't risk my health, sense of peace or moral foundation for people who go looking for arguments. All the "devil's advocate" people move on to others who will engage with them. I've leaned to spot a lost cause and walk away. I credit this to the work I've done on my Codependency/self-esteem. I no longer feel I need to justify or prove myself to others.  Nor do I feel the need to educate/save them.  It's brought me untold peace and really opened up my life in ways I never expected.

[SunnyMeadow]

Thanks, moglow. Sometimes changing subjects works, sometimes it doesn't. I once politely told my father that I am not willing to discuss X matter with him, and he became so angry and offensive. I can't believe someone would react like this just because someone isn't willing to carry his favourite type of conversation.

This is how my mother reacts too. She is always right and everyone else better damn well get on board with her way of thinking. She will rage, turn red, repeat constantly. It's pretty gross to witness, like a hugely overreacting toddler. Now I don't give my opinion to my uNPDmother. Like GettingOOTF wrote, I simply don't care to educate her or share my thoughts. She doesn't deserve to know me. So instead I listen to her, say "oh really"? or "I didn't know that" and wait for her to peter out or try to steer the topic in a different direction. This always involves a question about HER. That's her favorite topic.

I really wonder why I bother, it's not much of a relationship. She talks at everyone like she's the most important person in the world.
(sorry to go on, I'm just feeling especially angry about her today)

[Ilia]

Yes, this is my PD mother to a "T". From believing that the pandemic is a "plandemic" conspiracy to control the global population, to every other QAnon conspiracy that goes along with it. Unfortunately this means that she is not safe about COVID. She is a therapist and has continued to see clients in person with masks being "optional" which totally is against our department health regulations. She goes out to restaurants, in-person dance lessons, and gets her hair and nails done, doesn't always wear a mask, or leaves her nose out, and tells us that we're "living in fear" if we practice social distancing (I've been pregnant and now have a newborn during this pandemic so I think my caution is justified,  thank you very much).

Believing in conspiracy theories is nothing new for her. She gets off on having "special sources", I swear she thinks she's deep throat or something. I once made the mistake of mentioning that we found some old newspapers from Nixon's presidency in the attic, and she went off on a rant about how LBJ assassinated Kennedy. She also cannot read a room and has no awareness that it makes everyone very uncomfortable when she talks about these conspiracy theories.

[moglow]

Moderation note: Please refocus to PD related behaviors in discussions here on Out of the FOG! This isn't the place to debate or debunk conspiracy theorists/theories, pandemic, politically heated issues, etc.

[MarlenaEve]

Yes, this is my PD mother to a "T". From believing that the pandemic is a "plandemic" conspiracy to control the global population, to every other QAnon conspiracy that goes along with it. Unfortunately this means that she is not safe about COVID. She is a therapist and has continued to see clients in person with masks being "optional" which totally is against our department health regulations. She goes out to restaurants, in-person dance lessons, and gets her hair and nails done, doesn't always wear a mask, or leaves her nose out, and tells us that we're "living in fear" if we practice social distancing (I've been pregnant and now have a newborn during this pandemic so I think my caution is justified,  thank you very much).

Believing in conspiracy theories is nothing new for her. She gets off on having "special sources", I swear she thinks she's deep throat or something. I once made the mistake of mentioning that we found some old newspapers from Nixon's presidency in the attic, and she went off on a rant about how LBJ assassinated Kennedy. She also cannot read a room and has no awareness that it makes everyone very uncomfortable when she talks about these conspiracy theories.

Your mother and my father should get together...Anyway, I'm so sorry that you had to witness this and, on top of that, you're expecting a child.
I don't know what else to say rather thatt, I understand and that, your energy is precious and shouldn't be spent thinking of this person (or trying to understand her behavior).

I made a promise to myself today that no matter what NM & ND do, it won't affect me anymore because it's not my problem what they think or feel about me or life in general.

[MarlenaEve]

Whether it's this or any other subject on which you disagree, you can always decline further discussion about it and (at least you) agree to disagree.

This. Part of my healing has been that I simply don't engage in discussions like this with others. There are certain things that form who I am and I won't waste time trying to convince others or have them try to convince me otherwise.

I have found this approach very effective at getting problematic people to remove themselves from my life. When I don't give them the supply they are after they eventually move on to someone who does.

I simply won't risk my health, sense of peace or moral foundation for people who go looking for arguments. All the "devil's advocate" people move on to others who will engage with them. I've leaned to spot a lost cause and walk away. I credit this to the work I've done on my Codependency/self-esteem. I no longer feel I need to justify or prove myself to others.  Nor do I feel the need to educate/save them.  It's brought me untold peace and really opened up my life in ways I never expected.

I want to reach this level, too.
Well done!

[Andeza]

Hmm. Think I can cover this one with a blanket statement. Each and every one of us have our own stance, opinion, etc. The pwPDs in our lives will believe what they want to believe, as will we. And that is the choice each of us have as unique individuals.

If the decisions of another are ever such that you feel unsafe, at risk, or otherwise endangered, then maintain your boundaries and keep that person at arms length until things settle. Or beyond if necessary. Sometimes intense circumstances reveal more about a disordered individual and we then conclude that no amount of contact is safe for us.

Current events are merely a continuation of that theme. PwPDs will always push boundaries regardless of the boundary or the reason for its existence. Like goats with a fence. Fence exists=goats push on fence.

[Hepatica]

I think it often comes down to PD sorts of people hating being told what to do. They want to be in control, not the other way around. My PD father refused for years to use his signal or wear a seat belt, saying he was a good, defensive driver and (I think) he thought that was able to will his way out of an accident, until he back ended someone and hit his head badly due to not wearing a seatbelt. There is a weird belief that they are invincible, until they aren't.

My friend is a nurse in ICU and says the variants are even more strange. It may not kill, but for many the long-term effects are debilitating.

That invincibility thing that seems to go along with PD's has probably hurt and humbled a fair few of them.

[xredshoesx]

we have different ideas about covid in our family- both between my DH and me and the inlaws.  this is what works for us.  no debate, no judgement.  we simply state what we are and are not comfortable doing and what will and will not work for us.  DH and i came to some compromises that were respectful to what we both felt was the 'right thing' - it was easier with him then with the MIL and his one sister but it's our boundary and we've held to it by working together and using the i messages instead of trying to convince others to think/ do like us.

[beewildered]

I've seen ugly traits manifested from every shade of covid perspective, turning all society against each other.  Personality disorders don't observe political/religious boundaries.  Since the beginning of time, tyrants resent being questioned, get a thrill dominating others and are adept at controlling the narrative.

[sandpiper]

I'm only just recovering from twelve months of terrible post-viral fatigue and some really weird symptoms from having Long Covid. We were exposed to it last March by someone who I trusted and who didn't take it seriously. It was just before Australia went into lockdown last March.
Since then I have been really, really, really paranoid about catching it again. I am a very healthy and fit middle aged woman but it knocked me absolutely sideways and the post-viral fatigue was exhausting. I had my first Vx a month ago and it has really helped to 'reset' my immune system and I feel so much better. I know people who've had Long Covid who it hasn't helped, though, and being vaccinated doesn't mean that I feel any more relaxed about being around people who are going to put my life and my health at risk.
Most people in my community seem to take it seriously, but I reserve the right to protect my health and that of my household, simply by not having contact with people who won't follow the medical advice.
I am asthmatic and years ago, one of my reasons for going VLC/NC with some family members was because they thought it was acceptable to walk into my home, light up a cigarette, and watch me start coughing and struggling to breathe.
I talked at length with a therapist about that & it started the conversation of 'Learn to care less about the people who don't care about you.'
The virus can kill, and it's unpredictable.
I really don't give a damn what someone's reasons are for not taking it seriously.
I don't want to get ill again - I've lost a year of my life to post-viral fatigue.
I have just quietly been making lists of how to factor in various people's risk-taking behaviour so that they don't get the opportunity to infect me again.
It's just boundary-setting, really.
Like others have said, I don't really see the need to explain myself or my boundaries.
Some people I just avoid.
If you have to set some hard boundaries with family, though, I'd just do it.
It's not worth risking your life or your health or your capacity to go to work each day just to stay on the right side of someone who isn't going to respect your right to be safe.
You'll never change their minds though, so I wouldn't bother having that conversation.
The big issue here at the moment is just complacency, so I keep having to ask people to maintain that 1.5m of social distancing.
Thankfully for much of the last year my croaky voice - a leftover from the 5 weeks of burning sore throat of Covid - has been enough to make them take a few very large steps back.
Stay safe. Speaking from an experience I would much rather not have had, you do not want this virus.

[p123]

My Dad was a nightmare during Covid.....

Regardless of what you're views are, the law is the law. People get £2000 fines here in wales.

Of course, Dad felt he was "exempt" because he was "vulnerable". Hes not at all BTW. He can look after himself perfectly well and, of course, he was still getting "meals on wheels" delivered every day. Not great but a lot of old people were the same.

Brother lives a mile away. At one point they restricted travel between different counties in wales. I live 3 counties away so it was essential travel only.
I even checked with our local government rep and the confirmed that "No" it wasnt essential travel especially since there was a family member in the same county who could deal.

I got all sorts of abuse from brother, got told I was a liar, got told I was deliberately avoiding Dad. Brother quoted Dad in a text to me and, even though Dad denied it, they said some really nasty things about me. All because I refused to break the law.

Would I have visited Dad if he REALLY needed me? Would I have bent the rules a little if I could?
Of course I would if he needed me.... BUT there was no way in hell I was doing so for someone who demanded it, didnt really need it, but just wanted to continue his games.....

To be honest, I can't say I didn't enjoy NOT visiting though.