Is she NPD? Can she change?

[escapingman]

That's the question I keep asking me, over and over and over again. Does it matter what she is if she makes me unhappy? But, can she change?

I left her 2 weeks ago, she is begging me to come back. She has promised to change everything, but why do I have to leave for her to promise to change? She has been terrible, she has been bullying me, mostly verbally and emotionally but sometime physically, She is no real threat physically though as I am much bigger and stronger, but it doesn't make it nice anyway. She is doing a lot of the things that fits in on descriptions of BPD and NPD and also OCPD. Or can she have severe c-PTSD and/or fleas from her highly abusive parents? When I really have put my foot down on certain behaviours she has managed to control them better, such as unlashing her temper on the kids and to put me down in public. Can she change the others too? Passive aggressiveness for example, the worst one and drives me crazy. I think both of us suffer from poor boundary settings, my parents (reasonable normal I think) always violated my boundaries, so did hers (a highly NPD dad and a mum either NPD s well or severe fleas).  My wife also suffers from an eating disorder, she got into therapy for that a few years and they started digging and told her most of her problems comes from her mum and that she would need a year at a minimum of therapy. She didnt accept that and walked, worst descission she ever did if you ask me. I am thinking if I was to give her another chance I would demand her going back to therapy. But what are the chances it would help? If she id NPD I beleive they are near nil, but BPD or c-PTSD maybe it could help?

This is driving me insane, is it worth all the effort and aggro or should I just let go? I love her, but I can't stand who she is when the mask is off (if it is a mask).

Sorry if nothing makes sense.... 

[1footouttadefog]

We cannot diagnose,  And as you hinted, the diagnosis is not important, if you are being abused.

Most pd people never fully change.  However if you apply the tools in the toolbox section of this website you might see improvement.  Basically in the form of you letting her know what you will and will not accept.  This and boundary setting are often pressed back against and sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. 

You have left, and likely did not do so lightly with kids involved.  Things must have been intense.

I would suggest you take you time figuring out what to do next.  It seems she has a lot of potential diagnoses.

Maybe she could benefit from medical intervention. If she is bipolar or has a lot of anxiety there are medications that can help take the edge off some of what drives bad behavior and coping mechanisms that are abusive.

My spouse who has ptsd from military experience, and likely c-ptsd from his FOO, with a grandiose narc, for example takes a high blood medication called prazosin for other than HBP. It attenutes his body's response to adrenaline.  For him it means he is not ready to fly off the handle in a fright or flight type response because a salt shaker was knocked over.  He gets to sleep more easily at night and has fewer nightmares also.  Poor sleep and feeling like he was in a fright mode, like he had just come out of a fight, was a filter that everything around him was being processed through.  This of course not pleasant, fuel abusive responses and actions and abusiveness.

PTSD is a broad category and many symptoms can be treated medically. 

I would insist that she get therapy and possible diagnoses, it could help the kids even if you decide to leave the relationship.  Take things slow regarding returning. Words promising change are easy to come by. 

I always recommend the traits list on this website.  If you go through and check the things you live with and what she does and what you do and if it's habitual or occasional, it can be eye opening.  It can help inform just how much and many types of abuse you are living with. 

I hope you take care of your self and the kids while you make decisions, and that you can do so with strength and clarity.

[GettingOOTF]

I let it go. I came to see that it doesn't matter why someone does what they do. What matters is the actual impact it has on my life. Yes some people have very tragic pasts, have endured unimaginable pain, but that's no reason to negatively impact another.

My ex has a formal BPD diagnosis from a team of doctors. He had a talk therapist, a DBT therapist, a psychiatrist and I got him into one of the best DPY outpatient programs in the country. It didn't help in any real, long term way.  There is no "cure" for PDs. All they can do is try to change their behaviors. You know yourself how hard it is to change a core part of who you are. I imagine it's even harder for people with PDs.

You cannot demand someone to go therapy or treatment. Those things only work if the person is 100% committed. Therapy is difficult and painful work. It's not something you can threaten someone in to doing. This is why so many rehabs fail. People only stop drinking when they truly want to stop drinking.  Not stop upsetting their spouse, or stop being hungover etc. it's when they actually want to stop everything about drinking, including what they see as the benefits.

My path is somewhat different from many. When I eventually left I took a long hard look at myself. I started asking what was it about me that was attracted to such a deeply damaged person. What was it about me that thought the drama, abuse and chaos was acceptable enough that I stayed for as long as I did. I came to see that the issue was never my ex. If it hadn't been him I would have married someone just like him. The issue was never him, it was always me. I have spent a few years changing a lot of my programming, setting up and enforcing boundaries and learning to walk away from situations that don't serve me. These are skills I wish had been nurtured in me as a child. There were no such things as boundaries in my childhood home and that was reflected in almost every single choice I made as an adult.

I spent years and years trying to get my ex to change. To be the person I wanted him to be. I was too scared to walk away and find someone else. All that time I should have been trying to change myself. I see now that it was unfair of me to demand that he be anything other than what he is.

I've been divorced for a few years now. My ex hasn't changed and he found someone just like me. He even said once that I'd really like her as we were so similar. I realized that it was true, except she was similar to who I was years ago, before I did the work in myself and built the life I have now.  I saw a photo of her recently. She'd gained all the weight that fell off me when I left and had the same miserable expression on her face. My ex was a nightmare when he took my picture. He'd say and do awful things to me to get a "nice picture of you". She had the exact and I mean EXACT expression on her face. They do not change.

I also don't believe that there is a "mask". When I look back I see millions of red flags. For a while I beat myself up for ignoring them. Now I see I simply didn't see them because to me they were normal behaviors, behaviors I grew up with so they didn't seem out of place.

I left and went back multiple times. Each time leaving was harder and the abuse worsened as my ex knew I'd left and this triggered all kinds of insecurities in him.

Two weeks is early. You will still be feeling raw. No one can say either way, we can only give our experiences. Personally I would never encourage anyone who has left a relationship to return. It takes a lot to leave any relationship, especially a marriage. No one does it lightly. I advise everyone to listen to their gut, it's never wrong.

[escapingman]

Thank you so much for your replies. I was at a weak moment yesterday and thought about going back home after the weekend, but I have done alot of thinking since then and if I go back it will only be a matter of time before the abuse starts again. I did leave her for a week just a few months ago, she begged me to come back but it only took her a month before everything was back to as it was before. I promised her to use the weekend to think about it, mostly agreed to it to stop the millions of phone calls and texts. But if she is willing to change and shows it, I might give it a chance. But, she will have to change before I go back and she has to change because she wants to. That's the tricky bit.

I think I will let her know on Monday that she should contact a mental health specialist (we have access through our medical insurance) and to ask for help with her anorexia. Not sure if I should suggest her to also say that I suspect her having BPD or if that would make things worse. TBH I am kind of wanting to help her for the kids sake even if it wouldn't help me. I think all the abuse she has put me through over the years really has caught up and that I wouldn't want to risk it ever happen again.

It's kinda difficult to see a way back when you know and are Out of the FOG and just don't want to get back in there.

[GettingOOTF]

I do agree that once the FOG starts to clear it's impossible  go back.

My marriage was hell and so were the first couple of years after I left but when I look back every single day was better than the last. I did a lot of painful work and grew up in those years the way many do over the course of their childhood and teens. I say this often here but I would never ever have been able to imagine a life as wonderful as mine is now. Yes I still have issues and some days are hard, but that's life for everyone. It's impossible to describe the sense of peace to someone who is still in the relationship. You'll see this again and again in the posts from those who come back to tell what it's like on the other side.

[escapingman]

Yesterday evening I was almost on the verge of deciding to back, but now not at all. I have promised myself now to only allow myself to go back if I will decide every day in a week that I will go back. If I say no one day the counter restarts, this should stop any hasty decisions based on a feeling.  It's lonely, I miss my kids, but I rather have a lonely time now than a lonely life at home. I have had more grown up conversations with my kids the last year than I have had with my wife.

I must keep reminding me of why I left, I am lucky as I wrote down incidents for the last year and also did some voice recordings that caught some really bad incidents. Do I really want to go back to be threatened with murder because I want to sit in the living room watching my stuff? Do I want to be shouted at for slicing a baguette incorrect? Do I want to be called useless and a piece of sh-- for making cheese on toast in a different way to how she does it? Do I want to end up with my entire arm bruised because she attacked me whilst I was driving because I paid for mine and my kids stuff at the service station leaving her to pay for hers herself? Do I want to be shouted at for her struggling cause she fell when skiing and not helping her when I was on a slope on the other side of the mountain with the kids? Do I want to have a chocolate cake thrown all over the kitchen because I didn't knew what time she wanted to eat it? Do I want to have some one counting the times I go to the toilet and then ask if there is a problem with my stomach because I have been to the toilet X times (X is always twice as many times I actually been). Do I want to have days on holiday ruined because I didn't know she wanted to buy a souvenir from a specific shop? I could keep writing until next week to cover my almost 20 years relation with her.   

[escapingman]

Getting a slight distance on this, I think I always wanted to save her from her parents. I have accepted so much bad behavior and excused it as she can't help herself because that's what her parents thought her. But one comes to a point it's not possible to excuse it anymore, I am there now. Even though i have left her and now told her I ain't coming back, I feel so bad as I feel like I failed to look after her and to save her. But I have realized by trying to save her I have neglected myself and my children.

My MIL, probably the most manipulate person I know has caused so many arguments and problems. My wife used to say she felt like the jam on the sandwich cause her mum pressured her and I asked her to put up boundaries. I always lost, she walked all over us, I wish I had been strong enough to stop this years ago. I was a strong independent young adult when I met my wife, that was gradually erased bit by bit as my wife gave over all decision making to her parents. I didn't realize it in the begining, when we were discussing things I often let my wife decide as lots of the things didn't bother me to much (but what I didn't know was that she consulted her mum and every decision was taken by her). This escalated from the small things I didn't bother about to bigger and bigger things until our entire lifes were controlled, and I hadn't even realized it.  I still don't know if my wife is just a victim with sever fleas or if she is the same. But what I know is that I am tired of it and have no more energy to stay and find out. If she is more a victim she should now seek help and then it is a different question, if she actually wants to get better. But I doubt it.

[1footouttadefog]

It will be hard to come to terms with the reality that you cannot save her.  Accepting that it was never your job to fix her can come slowly.  It was your jobs, both of you as a couple to support each other.  Sounds like that did not happen


The abuses you report are intense even if occasional and I am getting they were routine, yikes.

You will be aware that someone you love may never be well. This involves a grief, be kind to yourself as you process the death or a relationship, the image and identity  you had as part of this relationship, and the breakdown of your family from all in one home to separate homes. 

This is really a significant life change, take care, and take time to grieve and proecess.  And of course there will be some intense emotions involved. 

[blew]

When I read this, I almost did a spit take with my morning coffee...

Do I want to have some one counting the times I go to the toilet and then ask if there is a problem with my stomach because I have been to the toilet X times (X is always twice as many times I actually been).

But you now know the answer and the answer is, no.

I often come here to Out of the FOG when I've had a particularly bad day, but when I sit down to write a long treatise, I look at the words and they seem silly.  But they are not.  Only those of us who have/are living with this understand how each day is a struggle and how this myriad of little cuts ends up bleeding us. And the tendency toward exaggeration is a constant, too.  If we went on a trip and it was hot, it's always "110" in the retelling, when maybe it was 90 degrees.  When they had maybe 25 people on their staff, it balloons to "over 50."  Just this morning I spent $60 on a fishing license.  Her reply?  "I'm going to have to take that credit card away from you."  It was not a tease, it was real.  Never mind that yesterday she had a pedicure, gets her hair done twice a week and we just bought $250 worth of plants.  But if it's ME, I'm overspending!  Then when I evince the slightest bit of annoyance, I get the "what's wrong" pushback -- knowing full well that I can not be honest, for that would send her off into a full-on rage....

Chill or no chill, I see no answer.

[1footouttadefog]

What I "love" the most are the little dogs and comments that go under the radar as nice or common when they are loaded and carry alot of weight.

How they can be so clever, and yet play dumb when its to their pd advantage.

[escapingman]

Thanks for your comments, I am at my end here and I am going crazy. I had to go back home, she was turning the kids against me playing the biggest victim charade ever seen. I know what she is but I still question my own take on events. She keeps criticizing every little thing and every time I pull her up on it she pretends it's all in my head. How can she do it with a straight face? She can stand and scream at the kids for the most trivial reason and when I tell her to stop she completely denies the screaming and instead blames me for shouting at her and for picking a fight and ultimately tries to turn the kids against me. Last night I woke up by her shouting at me and before I was enough awake to realize what was going on she had already left the bedroom slamming the door heading off to another bedroom. I laid awake confused and angry for hour before I could go back to sleep just for her to turn up in the morning pretending nothing happened and then get angry with me again as I should just ignore what happened because she was happy.

I need to get O U T!

But, I can't get out. I am trapped. Whatever I do or say she has an answer why it's all me and she doesn't hesitate telling everyone (our children) that it's all me. She will never leave, she will never let me leave. I will have to risk my relation to my kids to get out, is it worth it? I am not sure I will survive staying at home, not because of her being violent but by me going absolutely insane.

Sorry I have to stop ranting.

When I was away for a few weeks I got my energy levels back, as soon as I came back I have just felt it all draining away. I am into red now, not much left. I have told her I need some time on my own, but she just doesn't listen. I am working from home now and she is in and out of my office standing over me always trying to get my attention.

I need this *insert word* pandemic to end so I can escape once and for all.

[1footouttadefog]

Stand strong.  Refuse to be yelled at.  Leave the room. If she denies, tell her to stop lying and insulting your Inteligence.

I hope you find. Way forward. I can feel pain over the kids being in the middle of this.

I am trapped by the same thing.

[escapingman]

The yelling, she just yell for the smallest thing and when I ask her to stop she pretends she hasn't yelled and instead accusing me of yelling (when I am not). She lost it with the scapegoated child 2 days ago, apparently the bathroom was left in a mess after showering after training. I had to step in and protect and that just ended up with me being the bad one, how could I undermine her and side with the child. I am passed that now, I am not sure how it can be undermining her when I just not accept her doing some version of the silent treatment to a child. She then did the silent treatment to me all day yesterday, until the evening when she suddenly asked me to watch a movie with her. I just looked at her with disgust and left. I can't pretend anymore. Then there is the guilt, all the guilt she has put on me over the years. Not doing that anymore, I am not going to feel guilt for living. I am so glad I found this forum, reading stories so similar to mine. I couldn't even think of how to tell any friends as they would just laugh at me thinking I am crazy making it up. But I am not, I am even questioning it myself as the incidents are so far from normal. Read another user that wrote her husband came home with cakes for her when she was on a diet. I had almost an identical incident, my wife is almost tea total and drink alcohol about twice a year, and I decided to stay off the booze for a while - what does she do? Yes you guessed it right, she decided to open a bottle of wine to have with her meal, and of course moaning she can't drink a full bottle herself so I should share it with her.

I think I am ready mentally to leave, but I need to get all ducks in a row. Ideally I want her out, but she is the joint owner of the house so I guess I can't just throw her out. I feel no point trying a solicitor or the police as she will 100% manage to lie her way out of it and get me blamed for the abuse she has done. 

[1footouttadefog]

I would record some of her yelling sessions.  And start to journal.

Alit of NARCs will sabotage diets or studying etc.   They often have huge amounts of jealousy. 
 

[escapingman]

Oh the jealousy,  OMG that is out of this world. When I have done something and feel happy I need to hide that from her, I am not allowed to be happy.  Whenever I do anything without her, I have to report back and say it was crap, if I pretend I didn't enjoy whatever I did it's OK and I can do it again. If I say I loved whatever I did she will try to stop me from doing it next time.

I have been journaling on and off for a year and taking voice recordings on an off for 6 months. I have enough evidence for myself to know what she is doing. My best recording was accidentally and she threatened to murder me on that one, in front of the kids with them begging her to leave me alone. Not sure why I haven't been been strong enough to act on that. What is keeping me from it?

[Boat Babe]

What is keeping you from leaving you ask.

I'd say trauma bonds, worries about the kids and worries about what crazy shit she'll pull if you leave.

It's such a horrible situation to be in. Sending love.

[1footouttadefog]

The kids being exposed to sich threats would likely count against her in a custody battle.

Maybe you can tKe just you and the kids to a family councelor.

[escapingman]

My emotional thinking is working against me all the time, as soon as she throws me a bone and a glimmer of a hope of a golden period I give up. It's so much easier when things are OK, they are never good but when we at least get along. I have pulled her up on her behavior and I think she finally has understood that I actually might leave, she is now trying her hardest and she keep saying its he new "me" and that she will control her anger. I don't believe she will change, but very interesting that she suddenly when trying can control herself in situations she just lost it before. Makes me wonder how much of her terror is actually chosen as she clearly can control it when she wants to. But, I am using this respite period trying to build myself and not give myself any false hopes about that things will change. I know her cycle, it will not last, only question is how long she can stay away from her next tantrum.

I have always been seeking validation from others, and since i met her mainly from her. I have always put others first, but I am putting myself first now. It's hard, it's really hard as I am not used to it. I am getting better, but still a long way to go. I have a really good example I keep using to teach myself. I got myself a brand new phone a while ago, I dropped it and chipped the screen, but my first reaction was what she was going to say and not to feel annoyed for myself. I have never told her about the chipped screen, after all it's my phone and has nothing to do with her. But it took me a lot of self control to keep this to myself. I know in a normal relationship you share bad and good news, but it's not possible.

[escapingman]

I have been doing medium chill for a couple of weeks now since I returned to her, it is driving her absolutely insane. She keeps trying to involve me in her projects, finding problems, telling stories about other people but I give her minimal emotions back. This morning she tried again and then started talking to herself about things me and the kids had done wrong, how much of a victim she is, then when I still didn't respond she slammed the door on me and then left the house. As hard as it is to completely disconnect, the reward when she leaves is huge. I wonder how much more of this she can take before either loosing it completely or leaving (I am still hoping she would just go although its unlikely).

[ploughthrough2021]

I have read your posts and I have been going through what you are going through with my uNDPw for a few years now.  We ve beem married 25 years and spent 5 years together before marriage.  In my case, I had to endure it as we have 3 kids together and I wanted to wait until they get older to do anything.  It is always harder to split when children are involved and was wondering how old your child was ? I am doing Medium Chill and Grey Rock right now...