Mirroring

[Free2Bme]

I was thinking about the idea that PD persons will mirror ourselves back to us.  I realize this happened to me and I hear others speak of it.

My question is does this make me a N ?  What I mean is, if I was attracted to my own qualities that my updxh was mirroring, aren't I like Narcissus gazing into my own reflection?   

Or, was I just duped and victimized by someone who was clever and used what he knew about me to keep me engaged?

I can be self centered at times, and feel remorse when I realize it. I am not perfect, I do not have any reason to believe that I am PD.

This bothers me.   

[Simon]

No, I don't think so.
I know what you mean, with Narcissus falling in love with his own reflection.
But I don't think that the person being mirrored is a Narc because they fall for their own attributes.

If you're a person that's proud of how generous and giving you are, how loving and attentive you are, how selfless and empathic you are, and then find someone that's displaying all these qualities, I believe you're just happy that you've found someone that possesses the same goodness that you know you have.
It's a relief that there really are good people in the world, and it appears that you've found one that is so much like you, it fills you with promise and dreams.
It's not your Ego that you're seeing, it's your relief.

A little bit of Narcissism is a healthy thing (like being proud of something you've achieved), but if you were really being Narcissistic, you'd find the other person as a threat because of their good qualities, rather than someone you've been looking for.

Besides, the introspection that you've shown by asking this question shows that you've nothing to worry about.

[Hazy111]

As Sam Vaknin says (paraphrasing) "An insightful self aware narcissist is still a narcissist. "

Unfortunately i have come to the conclusion (over a very long time) that PD is the norm , not the exception. Once you know the tell tales, you cant unsee them or hear them.

A lot of people visit this site because they have extreme "acting out" PDs in their life.

I would say these people are the exception, PDs are just sometimes self absorbed, manipulative, controlling etc outwardly regular people. Some can be very generous .   But thats just my opinion

[SeaBreeze]

When I first met uNPDh, he mirrored me a few ways. From superficial likes (I love Chinese food, so he loved Chinese food.) To intellectual ("Oh, I love that author too! Can I borrow this book on your shelf?")  To personality traits (I was going through a very socially extroverted stage at that time, so naturally he was the life of the party.) To common goals ("You're idea for a new business sounds amazing, I'd even invest or partner with you! Tell me more!')

In some cases, we truly did share things in common, but in retrospect he really played those common interests up. In other cases, it was a total bait and switch  -- turns out he was most certainly NOT the life of the party, as he systematically dismantled my social life as well. And my amazing business idea? A very bad idea that was not feasible; he never said he'd invest or partner, what was I smoking to think he'd ever agree to that??

Then there was an early online chat where he outright asked me " What foods do you like, books do you read, music do you love? I want to know everything about you!" I was thrilled at the time that this charming,, attractive man was taking an interest in me and wanted to listen to me. (Yes, I was admittedly flattered and it gave me an ego boost, but that doesn't make me a Narc.) In retrospect, that opening line chills me to the bone. I fell right into his trap. What a sucker I was!!!

So no, I don't think we are narcissists for seeking a partner who shares common interests or life goals, or has compatible personality traits. Ask yourself: which one of you was honest about your likes, or who you are as a person, because you simply wanted the other person to know you? And then which one of you put on a false front to lure the other person in, and "future promised" things that later fell through? I promise, the latter partner is the PD.

[Free2Bme]

Thanks all, for the helpful feedback.

Maybe what is boils down to is not so much the behavior but motive.  Two people can exhibit the same outward behavior, one from a genuine and pro-social motive, and the other from an exploitive, anti-social intention. 

I am attracted to certain positive traits in others and attempt to cultivate these within myself.  I don't 'put these things on' in order to manipulate and exploit others for my own gain.  I stay tuned in to my motives and will sometimes hold back until I'm sure I am coming from the right place in my heart.

For example, my updxh would make monthly (mortgage size) contributions to our church.  IMO, he viewed this as an insurance policy so that he would look good to leadership, not so much about contributing to a good cause.  Conversely, I didn't give a crap about what they thought of our contribution.

Ugh.. sometimes this stuff is so hard to sort out, even after several years.

[Cat of the Canals]

Mirroring is not inherently bad. In fact, it's a natural social phenomenon that pretty much everyone does. Generally, it's not even something we're conscious of. It might even be that the manipulative mirroring that PDs exhibit isn't even true mirroring since it's supposed to be subconscious.

That's the more academic answer, anyway. The practical answer is that I don't think there's anything manipulative about trying to cultivate certain positive traits. Like you said, it comes down to motive. I think it also comes down to consistency. What you're describing sounds like the kind of thing you would embrace on a semi-permanent basis... i.e. "Jane is always talking about volunteering at the soup kitchen. I think I'm going to start volunteering to help the community, too." Whereas the faux mirroring PDs do is referred to as being "chameleon-like" because it can change on a whim. So if the PD is talking to Jane, they might go on and on about the virtues of volunteering, but if they -- even moments later -- find themselves in the presence of someone with an opposing position, they will flip-flop and agree that "helping the homeless is a waste of time."

[Free2Bme]

Exactly Cat,

I have observed this with PD's, they have the ability to compartmentalize things and give the response they know will further their agenda in a given moment. 

They will offer agreement with the other party on an issue (when they really don't), make promises they know they won't keep,  and tell outright lies, all in addition to mirroring.  Nothing is sacred.

You make a good point that mirroring is not inherently bad.

[Dandelion]

Hazy, I do concurr with alot of what you say.  Maybe narcissism and PDs are everywhere. Unfortunately, I am rather untrusting these days*.  I saw a friend recently and realised (afterwards) that I had felt uncomfortable at times.  Why?  There seemed to be "fishing" or even some kind of interrogation for information, some judgyness going on, and so forth.  I am not sure if she is PD, but still feel there is some manipulation going on.  Once you see that, its hard to unsee, just like you say  .   

Also, what others say, its alot to do with the motivation.  Most people mirror naturally on a basic level (even yawning together), smiling, laughing, commiserating, part of our social connection. Some of it may be surface and social niceties, but there is sometimes genuineness and depth there too. With narcissist mirroring the motivation is usually self-centred, the need to be seen to be a certain way, or social niceties just to get the "company" they want. 

I believe the bible (Matthew 6:1) has something to say on motives :

"Be careful not to make a show of your righteousness before people.  If you do so, you do not gain anything from your Father in heaven.  When you give something to the poor, do not have it trumpeted before you, as do those who want to be seen in the synagogues and in the streets in order to be praised by the people.  I assure you, they have been already paid in full.  If you give something to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your gift remains really secret.  Your Father who sees what is kept secret, will reward you."

*I also like Matthew 10:16 "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.  Be ye therefore wise as serpents and innocent as doves"

[Dandelion]

PS.  I hope that didn't come across as preachy!  I came come across these verses recently and they spoke to me, and the postings made me think of them.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I didn't read it that way, Dandelion. When you do things for an ulterior lesser motive, then that superficial and ultimately unsatisfactory satisfaction is all you get. That first verse is a good description of "supply."

[1footouttadefog]

My tale on it is that we make our mistake when we feel love from them while being mirrored.

What we are seeing is there self love and mistaking it for love.

When they mirror or  love Bomb us, they are gleaful that it's working and they are such a smooth operator and simultaneously getting narc supply and loving that they are being loved


It does not mean we are NARCs, only that we are vulnerable to them.

[Dollydrops]

I think it feels lovely in the beginning too. You really do feel that you met your soul mate because of it. Once hooked though I found it really scary when mine started asking things about me which in the beginning he'd found so adorable. Questions like what's your favourite movie? When in the beginning we'd had lengthy talks about it. One day I commented on a radio station he had playing in his car with my kind of music. '  I always have this station on' he said, but on the last visit I'd taken note and it was a totally different one with love songs. Clearly as my demise began someone else was being bombed.

[Simon]

Once hooked though I found it really scary when mine started asking things about me which in the beginning he'd found so adorable. Questions like what's your favourite movie? When in the beginning we'd had lengthy talks about it. One day I commented on a radio station he had playing in his car with my kind of music. '  I always have this station on' he said

Yep, same here.

In the beginning, she told me my eyes were amazing because of all the different colours she could see in them, and that she loved the fact that my eyelashes were long (don't know if they are or not. Never thought about it. lol).
Then, in the devalue, she told me, out of the blue, that many people had my eye colour, and that most men had long eyelashes.

In the beginning, she would tell me that she loved the fact that my teeth were white (they're not whitened, just normally white because I've looked after them, and brushed them 3-4 times a day.
Then, in the devalue, she kept digging to see if I'd had them cleaned/whitened, and was always disappointed that I actually hadn't.

In the beginning, she always commented on me being a massive fan of the Buddhist philosophy, and that I always keep a calm head in a crisis, and look at things with an open and rational mind, and rarely lose my cool.
Then, in the devalue, she loved to keep poking at me to see how far she could go, and I almost never reacted, using logic and a calm demeanour to put out her fire (I once just looked at her and said calmly "Are you mocking me?". She didn't know what to say or do. It completely shut her down.).
The only time I did react because she realised I wasn't biting, and never really had, so she started talking smack about someone in my family that I lost a while back. She knew I would be defensive, and when I glared at her and said with a raised voice "You can stop right there!", her face suddenly changed to calm, and she told me that I needed anger management! (projection anyone?)
That was after listening to her shout and scream and slam doors for 30 minutes.

In the beginning (final one  ), she would tell me how great it was that I was Vegan, and that she'd always wanted to eat less meat. She made a big deal out of this one, because she knew how important it was to me.
Then, in the devalue, you guessed it, it all became so much of a chore that I didn't eat meat, and that we couldn't order in rather than cook (cooking I would do by the way).

All of these things were mirroring initially, because I told her I liked people who look people in the eyes when talking to you, I told her how important it was that people look after their teeth, I told her I was a very relaxed, calm person who liked to meditate (she must have seen that as a sadistic challenge), and I told her that I liked good, fresh Vegan food.
Btw, I have never tried to push any of these things, like Buddhist philosophy or Veganism, on any of my girlfriends.
I would never do that.
I respect and admire people doing their own thing, being their own person, and it has never been an issue with any of them.
With my BPD ex gf, Veganism must have been something that she couldn't wait to devalue, because in the devalue stage, that was something that she focused on (but when a female friend of mine, who is also a Vegan, would call me, and we'd talk about something relating to Veganism, she would get the hump and tell me that I never talk to her about those things. That would be because you would just use it as ammunition sweetheart!  )

It's like they give you loads of gifts at the start of the relationship, and as time goes on, they slowly take them back, regretting ever giving them to you, and taking them back with the most venom they can muster.

Very strange people.
So glad I will never let another one into my life.
If you stay too long, their toxicity will destroy you slowly from inside, and their aim is to have you feel as empty and as miserable as they do.
That actually makes them feel better about themselves.

Very, very weird!

[Dollydrops]

Hi Simon, yes weird but scary. There was one time I remember when he said something about me which really left me scared, he repeated a full story I'd told him about myself, a very unique story and a few weeks later repeated the story as something he had happen himself. I can't describe how I felt but we'd just been intimate and I thought to myself, 'he's taking over me from inside out'. I spent a lot of time thinking he was with someone else in his head and forgotten it was me in front of him.
Re the eyes thing, he would bore holes into my eyes with his, could in a flash copy my facial expressions and he would brush away my hair so he could 'see my beautiful eyes' better. I think they read you by your eyes a lot. In devalue he began turning his face away when I mentioned anything emotional, like he didn't want me to see if his eyes were vacant and one biggie was that he stopped kissing me the same, stopped saying I love you, would say 'me too' if I said it to him.
In the beginning he scrutinised my social media and claimed all my likes as his own, he drank tea but if we had drinks he would order coffee the same as me and cake the same as mine, then said one day he never liked caramel.
I used to know someone else had his attention when new things were mentioned, oh and the times he mixed me up with someone else were unbelievable.

[Simon]

he repeated a full story I'd told him about myself, a very unique story and a few weeks later repeated the story as something he had happen himself. I can't describe how I felt but we'd just been intimate and I thought to myself, 'he's taking over me from inside out'. I spent a lot of time thinking he was with someone else in his head and forgotten it was me in front of him.

Wow Dolly.
That is a bit scary.
My BPD ex gf used to repeat little things that I had told her, which was weird enough, but a whole story of mine that she made hers would have freaked me out.
Could be yours was seeing someone else, and got you both mixed up, as you said, or just down to their pathology (BPDs being more likely to get mixed up unintentionally, and NPDs more likely to be playing mind games for a kick).

As the stories of her exes went on, she would contradict herself with the last story she told about a certain one, or tell me the same story about a different boyfriend, etc.
I stopped believing those stories pretty quickly.
I'm sure she's told the same stories about me now. 

Psychology says that they have no identity at all, which is why they have to live through us, and the more stories I hear from people on here, mixed with my experience with my ex, the more I think they are spot on.
They are just empty shells, even after all their relationships over the years.
Nothing sticks with them.
Sad really.


As for the rest of your post, so many familiar things.

...one biggie was that he stopped kissing me the same, stopped saying I love you, would say 'me too' if I said it to him.

Yes, yes and yes.
The kissing is a huge thing.
Very painful to experience something like that.
And the love hearts in the text messages suddenly disappeared too.
The "I Love You's" came back towards the end of the relationship, but it was way too late for her to be able to reel me back in by then.

...he drank tea but if we had drinks he would order coffee the same as me and cake the same as mine, then said one day he never liked caramel.

Spot on. That one is exactly the same as my ex.
She also did that with TV programmes.
Amazing how many TV programmes we both liked, and then suddenly she made a point of saying that she didn't like these programmes, and had a sudden, new interest in a different type of programme (guess what type of programmes the "new supply" liked!)

...oh and the times he mixed me up with someone else were unbelievable.

Yep.
If she accidentally called me by the name of the person who was to be the "next victim", then I presumed it was a genuine mistake (probably guilty conscience, and she couldn't look at me when it happened), but when she "accidentally" called me by the name of an ex of hers, it was always followed by a few seconds of looking at me, waiting for a reaction, so totally planned to devalue me.

Amazing how they all do the same thing, isn't it.
Did they all go to Borderline & Narc University? 

[Dollydrops]

Simon,
How about shouting out the name of his other interest right at the crucial moment during love making!! Oh yes and he looked at me a few seconds and said I was going to say Jesus.
That was the first day I started playing detective.

[Simon]

Oh Dolly.
Really sorry you had to go through that.
That must have been so painful for you.
Do you think he did it intentionally?

I can't even imagine what I would have done if that had happened to me.
I'd like to think I'd end the relationship there and then, but it's not so easy when we're still caught in their web.

[Dollydrops]

Simon,
No I didn't end it, he kept insisting he was about to say something different and being at the time it happened i was kind of 'surely no one would do what you just did' it was a fairly new relationship, one in which he'd pursued me for months and was really obsessive with me, so on purpose more likely. He did a lot of things similar for a long time.