The more involved I get, the more I dislike church

Sneezy · July 14, 2021, 07:13:06 PM

I have a hard time saying no. And I truly do like to volunteer and give back to organizations I belong to. But I am really struggling with my church. The more involved I get, the more I dislike it. I enjoy my women's group and I like the giving aspect (collecting food for the food pantry, etc.). But, you know how it goes with churches. Over time, you get asked to be more and more active. I have been on church council and on several committees that have pretty much ruined church for me. Part of the problem is our over-bearing minister. He is really a "my way or the highway" person and he doesn't like disagreement. The pandemic was the worst because I was on the safety committee and kept pushing back when he wanted to reopen our church too soon. He was pretty mean about it and really made me feel bad. As it turned out, if he had had his way we would have reopened right before a huge surge in our area.

In a way, the pandemic was a nice break. Over a year without in-person services and only zoom meetings. It made me realize how much I don't need this type of stress in my life. So the answer is to leave. But . . . church is one thing my covert NPD mom and I can do together that is easy. I take her to church and out to lunch and we've had a few hours together that didn't involve too much work. And I do feel like I have friends at church that I would miss if I left.

What to do? I'm struggling with this decision. I almost feel like there is God and spirituality and what I believe on one side and church on the other side, and the two really don't seem to have much to do with each other.

Anyone else had to struggle with this? Would love to hear how you handled it.

SonofThunder · July 14, 2021, 09:38:52 PM

Hello Sneezy,

I'm 100% with you. I was raised in the brick and mortar and left for good about 10 years ago, focusing on faith and relationship. There's 2 fictional books you may enjoy at this time in your life: 'The Shack' and 'So You Don't Want to Go to Church Anymore'. Both of which, ex long time pastor, fantastic writer and genuinely super nice person, Wayne Jacobsen, is responsible.

You wrote:

"But . . . church is one thing my covert NPD mom and I can do together that is easy. I take her to church and out to lunch and we've had a few hours together that didn't involve too much work. And I do feel like I have friends at church that I would miss if I left."

That is a powerful statement regarding organized religious institutions spoken about in Revelation. I recommend you re-read that paragraph for what it is truly saying. Frankly we have a more honest and real 'church' (worldwide body of believers) members right here on Out of the FOG, without the hoops of religion to jump through. Imo, the bar down on a nearby corner is a better 'church' than most brick and mortar religious institutions.

You also wrote:

"What to do? I'm struggling with this decision. I almost feel like there is God and spirituality and what I believe on one side and church on the other side, and the two really don't seem to have much to do with each other."

I can't give that paragraph enough "amens".

SoT

Andeza · July 14, 2021, 09:59:50 PM

"I almost feel like there is God and spirituality and what I believe on one side and church on the other side, and the two really don't seem to have much to do with each other."

Ditto. Same boat here. We've given up completely on the brick and mortar at this point. And believe me, we've had some long and detailed conversations on why and whether we were doing the right thing or not. "Church" in the modern term has become more a place to show off how faithful we are... while gossiping about our neighbors... then we walk out of the building and go right back to... what exactly? Where was the fellowship, the joined worship? For me, it was never there. For me, I get a greater sense of community and fellowship talking to fellow gardeners about gardening than I do from talking to church folks about God. There are other elements I struggle with there as well, but I'll refrain from diving in as they aren't particularly related to your question. More a tangent.

Additionally, you've been on the meetings and committee side where church becomes essentially a business. I think for people in our position a small, home study group that gets together specifically to discuss the Word and does just that would be more fulfilling by far. You can still do things with the church and volunteer, but it would only be in relation to those specific activities. And Sneezy, I'm familiar with your story with your NPDm... She probably minds her behavior when you go to church so she looks like the little old faithful lady, patiently enduring all the things... More supply. And you take her, so she gets to show off that fact to all the other little old ladies that have to come by themselves. Just keep that possibility in mind as you face your decision.

SoT, I remember that portion of Revelations well. It's... very interesting to say the least. Mostly, chilling.

Jolie40 · July 14, 2021, 10:54:27 PM

Quote from: Sneezy on July 14, 2021, 07:13:06 PM
Over time, you get asked to be more and more active.

this is what happened to a friend but as a school volunteer
she volunteered for one thing, then they asked for more & more
with 3 kids at school, she felt obligated
finally, it was just too much

stop volunteering & then you could attend when you wish/see your friends
you gave them plenty of your time
you can say "it's time for others to have the opportunity to volunteer."

moglow · July 15, 2021, 12:31:49 PM

Sneezy, maybe this is a good opportunity to practice boundaries, possibly learn to set aside the "all or nothing" that may be holding you back. Who says it has to be all in or all out? What's to keep you from going to services as and when you choose, or possibly setting up small group studies with others you have a connection with? Or - more than anything - setting aside FOG with a smile and polite, "thanks for thinking of me but no. Maybe some other time. "

Best part? You don't owe anyone an explanation even if they decide to insist! Not your stuff

Call Me Cordelia · July 15, 2021, 03:51:37 PM

Yes, I agree with Moglow. The title of your post tells me that church has become about all the committees, volunteering, etc. for you. What is preventing you from stepping back toward simply worshiping at services? Or dropping everything but women's group and food pantry? It's easy for all the other good works to crowd out what is most essential to Christianity. It is a trap, but no need to throw out the baby with the bath water. I suggest you take your faith and belief to some deep prayer. Pour it all out to the Lord, and let Him show you your heart and His.

Sneezy · July 16, 2021, 03:53:49 PM

Thank you all - you've given me so much to think about. It is helpful to know that others struggle with these same questions. The answer is - of course - boundaries. I don't have trouble saying no if I don't pick up the phone. Rather, I let it ring, listen to the message, and then decide what my answer is before I call the person back. I need to do this with church and limit my activities to the ones I enjoy (and also to the ones that allow me to easily keep my mother occupied). And real friends understand and allow others to say no. Several of my church friends have confided in me that they find our minister difficult to work with. And so it won't be a surprise to anyone if I do as others have done, and stick to activities and commitments that don't involve working directly with him. I don't even have to say that part out loud. It's a good example of "do your boundaries, don't say them." I have a current volunteer job to finish up that I want to see through (maybe two months or less), and then from now on, it's only a "yes" if it's something that I truly want to do. Enough with the obligations.

1footouttadefog · July 17, 2021, 08:44:35 AM

I went to one church where the pastor was actually against people being involved too much. He felt it worked against marriages and family to be at church several nights a week.

I am also at this time between churches. I had stayed longer at my church than I should have. I had been no
Inated to serve as an elder. I agreed on the condition I would likely only serve a year or two of the three year term. I would serve the church through finding a new pastor etc. Then the pastor delayed retiring past what we discussed when I agreed to be available for election.

In this time I realized how much I did not need to continue at that church. They got a new pastor, actually a good choice and I am hPoy that he will likely be used OG God to heal the wounds there etc.

My time ended in the middle of covid shut downs, I was used be God to shut down a catastrophe in the making when noone else could get through to a man who was about to devide the congregation. I did the website work and audio and video editing to make sermons available online, I helped plan out the covid reopening measures etc but never started going back myself.

I do t miss it. The church had morphed in the dozen years I attended and was no longer the place I had joined.

Yes, the local bar is a better church than where I was going in many ways. We discuss the Bible more here in Outofthefog that most churches do.

I still make my charitable giving to missionaries in Haiti, and support families around the world through sponsorships and carried a single mom with 4kids through covid shut downs etc when her ex got the stylus and tax earned in om credits while not ozyi g child support regularly. He felt entitled to reimburse himself with these funds. She could not work with 4kids home from school and day cares shut down.

I study my Bible and want to sing hymns again at a church, but most do praise and worship with new songs and no music notes each week so it's hard to sing. I guess I need to stand and wave my hand instead, lol.

I sometimes wonder if the Choir in heaven will be a bunch of angels silently waiving their hands.

Off topic, sorry, and not stepping on toes, lol, there is a place for praise and worship, I just miss congregational and choral singing and instrumentalists who are accomplished, not winging it.

tragedy or hope · July 17, 2021, 09:38:24 AM

IMO to keep safe, though what I am saying is biblical....

First, the meaning of "church" is ecclesia in greek or "the called out ones." It was never deemed a business by God. When people are living out what the bible calls "spiritual gifts," in the body of called out ones, everyone will do what needs to be done, not what needs to be assigned. No one will be overworked or feel pressured. Granted, this in a perfect world but doable in a true biblical church God has ordained.

When we say yes to too many things, we are usurping God providence and the opportunity for others to use their gifts in response to the moving of God. In the body we all have a function, an eye, ear, hand, foot etc. A hand cannot be a foot, an ear an eye...

We are spiritually capable of doing only that which God calls us to... not a person: ie; committee chair.
We answer primarily to our maker. People who treat the congregation as a business have lost the biblical perspective of what the church was created for... come out from among them and worship the One true Holy God.

Practice just a few words. No thank you, I am not able to do that. Repeat as many times a necessary. Do not discuss or get into any other conversation until the other party sees your position is established. It only feels uncomfortable for a little while and then you will feel so much better about the honesty of your decision. You may also have a sense of God's blessing because you have moved out of His way to create a place for someone else.

Sometimes because we have natural or career type gifts people ask things of us
God would never ask. In choosing David to be King, the most unlikely of all of
Jesse's sons. He was nothing but a shepherd. Having six or seven more "qualified" brothers was not God's plan. God looks at the heart.

Men who are Pastors are not always called of God. Nor are they sensitive to His leading. Beware of the man who seeks power over the congregation.

A Pastor is only another man with a different gift and his position is to lead the congregation to follow God's word and statutes, not to become the boss. I serve only ONE master and his name is Holy.

thedoghousedweller · July 18, 2021, 03:58:01 PM

Your message got my attention because I really didn't like church for a long time. It seemed like they were always short on volunteers for events, so I ended up helping with the things that I hated to do. I built a lot of resentment. On a different note, I've struggled with the egos of some pastors.

For these reasons, we sought another church. I really don't mind serving because this church has embraced my family and me throughout our struggles. I've never felt a sense of shame. When it comes to service, I just define the serving boundaries and stick to them. There are good churches out there.

That said, it doesn't have to be a church solution. I attend three fellowship groups - one support group and two fellowship groups each week. I almost always leave the sessions with positive energy and emotions. Seeing other men go through the same challenges as I have has allowed me to see God in a different light. Not the dictator role that I saw growing up.

I hope and pray for the best for you but encourage you to see that churches have flaws, but those churches who recognize they are flawed are the ones I would seek out.

Mary · July 28, 2021, 10:07:07 PM

Hi Sneezy,
A verse comes to mind related to this.

I Cor 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

To me there are several aspects to consider. First, God wants us to be abounding in some kind of work for Him, and that work will not be wasted. Second, that work should be the "work of the Lord".

I can get spread so thin, and then I feel really inadequate in the nonprofit work I feel God has called me to. Of course, my family is no question a big focus of my work for the Lord. And we are told in James 1:27 that pure religion is to take care of the fatherless and widows, and to stay unspotted from the world.

All Christians are gifted for specific God-given tasks, as T/H mentioned. I would challenge us all, including myself, to figure out what that "work of the Lord" is for us individually. Part of that, I think, is to also figure out what is NOT the work of the Lord. Sometimes, we can get carried away with the list of things others think we should be doing, especially PD's in our lives. It's one thing to do something to please someone with a gift of our time. It's quite another to cease living our own lives and the lives God has called us to in order to keep the hamster wheel running.

I think I'm speaking to myself alot here.

Lord, help us focus on the work you want us to do, and thank you for gifting us for this work! Amen

Mary

tragedy or hope · July 29, 2021, 10:00:22 AM

Amen.

The Inner Light · July 29, 2021, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: tragedy or hope on July 17, 2021, 09:38:24 AM
IMO to keep safe, though what I am saying is biblical....

First, the meaning of "church" is ecclesia in greek or "the called out ones." It was never deemed a business by God. When people are living out what the bible calls "spiritual gifts," in the body of called out ones, everyone will do what needs to be done, not what needs to be assigned. No one will be overworked or feel pressured. Granted, this in a perfect world but doable in a true biblical church God has ordained.

When we say yes to too many things, we are usurping God providence and the opportunity for others to use their gifts in response to the moving of God. In the body we all have a function, an eye, ear, hand, foot etc. A hand cannot be a foot, an ear an eye...

We are spiritually capable of doing only that which God calls us to... not a person: ie; committee chair.
We answer primarily to our maker. People who treat the congregation as a business have lost the biblical perspective of what the church was created for... come out from among them and worship the One true Holy God.

Practice just a few words. No thank you, I am not able to do that. Repeat as many times a necessary. Do not discuss or get into any other conversation until the other party sees your position is established. It only feels uncomfortable for a little while and then you will feel so much better about the honesty of your decision. You may also have a sense of God's blessing because you have moved out of His way to create a place for someone else.

Sometimes because we have natural or career type gifts people ask things of us
God would never ask. In choosing David to be King, the most unlikely of all of
Jesse's sons. He was nothing but a shepherd. Having six or seven more "qualified" brothers was not God's plan. God looks at the heart.

Men who are Pastors are not always called of God. Nor are they sensitive to His leading. Beware of the man who seeks power over the congregation.

A Pastor is only another man with a different gift and his position is to lead the congregation to follow God's word and statutes, not to become the boss. I serve only ONE master and his name is Holy.

TOH, what you've said here is wonderful. Thank you for posting this. It's certainly helped me as a reader of this topic. Especially the part about how other people can have a chance to serve if we decline or step aside.

Many years ago I was asked to read the scripture readings because I have a good speaking/"radio" voice. I was hesitant, but I was talked into it. I was gripped with fear every time I did it and would even on occasion get to the point of literally nearly passing out on the altar (e.g. the start of tunnel vision, etc). Still, I forced myself to do it for over ten years. It never got easier and was one of the major stressors in my life. Finally I decided I'd done it long enough and told the liturgist that I was going to retire from being a lector. I stepped aside and others filled that role. If I hadn't stepped aside, they wouldn't have had the chance.

Cascade · July 30, 2021, 05:37:39 PM

QuoteI almost feel like there is God and spirituality and what I believe on one side and church on the other side, and the two really don't seem to have much to do with each other.

Yes, I feel the same way. I haven't been to our church physically for over a year, due to covid. I wonder if there is something wrong with me because I haven't even missed going. I planned to go back to attending in person once I was fully vaccinated but I'm finding it difficult to do. My PD husband used to attend too and he had embarrassed me at times by his behavior and the things he said. Around that time I decided to no longer volunteer at my church. I volunteer elsewhere now, and am still around other believers at my place of work.

Adria · August 29, 2021, 04:27:42 PM

I have been, many times, where you are. Something I have learned to do when people start trying to push me to do things I really don't want to do is either say a simple, "No, not at this time." If I can't do that, I simply say, "I'll need time to think and pray on that." Never say yes to anything on the spot because it can be done out of pressure and then it can be regretted.

1footouttadefog · September 04, 2021, 07:32:31 AM

In most things it's good to take your time and think and pray.

Being that Churches are PD rich environments, it's probably especially wise to be discirning and prayerful. People will use the fact it's. Church related to pressure, and apply guilt etc.

Hope you find your folks to have Christian fellowship with.