Emotional abuse and silent treatment

Started by WearyHusband, July 21, 2021, 09:51:18 PM

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WearyHusband

I've been learning a lot about recovering from Codependency, rebuilding my self-esteem, and practicing tools like noJADE and mChill to avoid circular arguing. However, a recurring dynamic with my uPDw that I experience is stonewalling/silent treatment. On many occasions over our 20 years of marriage I'll wake up and she's in one of those "moods". Not like just the grumpy, or occasional moods most of us experience from time to time, but a distant, irritable, snappy mood. I'll wake up in the morning and walk into the living room (if she wakes up first) and she'll ignore me, won't look up from her phone, etc. (If I say, "Good morning," she might mumble out the same.) It seems like she doesn't even recognize my existence in the house, except for when she makes snarky, sarcastic comments, throws out argument "bait" that only until recently I'd fall into every time. I'd start justifying, arguing, defending, explaining - all the things I'm learning not to do any longer. Over the years, I learned to read her face and body language and adjust my behavior. I'd bring her flowers, clean the house, speak calmly, do nice things; yada yada, yada, classic Codependency crap. I started walking on egg shells, etc. until her mood passed. I'd get so anxious, feeling like her moods were my fault and I had to find the perfect thing to say or do to help her. Ugh.

However, over the last four years, these "moods" have become more intense and longer in duration. My wife cuts off all physical contact (sex, hand holding, any kind of contact at all). She also seems to cut off all emotional connection, and no matter what I try, it's like there's this massive, impenetrable wall up. She will ignore me for weeks. Often won't greet me when I come in the room, won't engage in conversation about anything meaningful or personal. Though I've asked, I literally have no idea what's going on in her head - other than what I hear verbally in the way of berating, sarcasm, and snarky, irritable comments about me (which I'm now learning to set boundaries around and tell her firmly but calmly if she talks to me that way, I'll leave the room. It seems to help curb the verbal abuse, but it doesn't seem to do anything to restore any sense of emotional connection at all).

Recently, I tried to bring up the topic of "silent treatment" and told her that I feel distant from her when she gives me the silent treatment and want to connect with her. She became angry and told me I was criticizing her and falsely accusing her, like always. She said she wasn't giving me the silent treatment, she just "needed space." I understand needing space, but for several weeks? Along with being just plain rude?

Does anyone have any experience or advice with stonewalling or silent treatment from your PD partner? How do I "set boundaries" around things that I'd describe is non-behavior or the absence of positive behaviors --  like neglect, withdrawal, and silent treatment? Is there any solution other than to just take care of myself and not expect any emotional, positive verbal, physical, or sexual connection? Am I thinking about boundaries incorrectly - like am I trying just to change the other's behavior? It's really confusing to me and I'm stumped.

Grateful,
WH

notrightinthehead

Silent treatment is tough.  The best I could deal with it,  was to use the absence of the beratings and pretend I was alone in the house. Ignore the dark cloud created by the bad mood of my partner.  Tune into myself and do what I would do if he was away. 
During a particular long one, I broke the silence and told a friend about it.  Her reaction made a big difference for me,  she was shocked and called it abuse.  I am still grateful to her for the validation and support she gave me.
The problem is often,  that we are so used to keep the focus on our loved one that we completely forget about ourselves.  We try to solve a problem that we cannot solve. The feelings and the behaviour of our partner are out of our control. We can do nothing about it.  We have to just accept that we have no control over how our partner feels or behaves.  Boundaries start with accepting that your wife is in a bad mood. You are so tuned into her,  you probably know immediately what mood she is in when you see her in the morning.  Then you make an agreement with yourself.  Maybe you decide to ignore her mood when bad mood is level 1 and you remove yourself from her presence when bad mood is level 2.  You let her deal with her moods and you deal with your own insecurities and anxieties triggered by her bad mood.
Of course you can have expectations of  positive connection.  But maybe you expect it from the wrong person.  Your wife shows you who she is and what she can give you.  Once you accept this reality you might stop fighting windmills and start living with what you have got.
I can't hate my way into loving myself.

losingmyself

My DD, DS, and I used to sit and allow my H's mood to fill the air, and wait for it to pass, not making a lot of noise, or causing any disturbance that might make him more angry. There was few times that I knew what caused the issue and woe be me if I asked.
I learned, through here, to practice "his stuff/my stuff"
You're in a bad mood? Sorry to hear that. I'll be enjoying my day away from you. And you'll be sitting in a room alone, pouting.       
When my DD was 2-ish, and she wanted to have a fit, she'd follow me from room to room, because, how can you have a fit if there's no witnesses? I decided to implement that rule....on a 50 year old man.
I have learned to do my own stuff. Also, everything that notright just said. "We have to just accept that we have no control over how our partner feels or behaves." Amen.
Your W is getting fuel from your codependency. When you stop, she will ramp it up. Be ready for that, and hold firm to your boundaries.
If I can do it, you can do it!

SonofThunder

Hello Weary,

Silent treatment is a very common occurrence in the IDD (idealize, devalue, discard) cycle. Silent treatment is not really silent, because you see it, feel it, and experience it, therefore it IS.  Therefore also it is not a non-behavior.  What is a non-behavior is the person you don't know on the other side of the plane isle, as you plop down in your opposite isle seat, reading their book and not saying hello to you, or engaging you.  But that's expected and normal from a stranger.  Your wife is not a stranger, so the same actions when you walk into the room are purposeful therefore they ARE actually actions; they are behaviors. 

The boundary is that when you notice it, ignore it completely and go somewhere else to do your thing.  Also, silent treatment is proactive baiting, therefore any reaction to the bait is JADE. 

You wrote:

" Recently, I tried to bring up the topic of "silent treatment" and told her that I feel distant from her when she gives me the silent treatment and want to connect with her. She became angry and told me I was criticizing her and falsely accusing her, like always."

That imo is A= arguing your side and E= explaining how you feel.  If you responded to her response to your JADE it may been The J and the D as well.  So my advice is that your radar is tuned very finely to the ST's.  Therefore when recognized, act like normal (say good morning like you would to the steward on the plane) and go about your business like normal, but end up in another room/place.  If she really wants her "space" she will be perfectly happy alone.  If it's the ST's you may find her move from her space to a place close enough for you to notice the effects of the ST's or she will make her mumbled comments a bit louder or you may hear a door slam. 

The more you protect yourself, the more you will recognize your disgruntled 'roommate'.    You are not alone my friend. 

SoT
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

Lauren17

Hi WearyHusband,
I'm so sorry that you are going through this.  I've lived with silent treatment, stonewalling, and avoidance for years.  And, yes, I've kept the kids quiet for fear of "making Daddy angry."
All of the advice you've gotten so far is accurate and worth taking to heart.  I wanted to give you some more practical suggestions of how I deal with silent treatment.
My favorite is to turn on some music and sing along while I bake.  It makes me feel better and demonstrates that I'm not bothered by ST.
Other suggestions are to:
Go for a walk
Play a game with the kids, either at home or at the park
Read
Watch a movie
Whatever your hobbies are, engage in them in a calm and cheerful manner.
As others have said, she will probably ramp up her behavior to get the attention.  I don't know what that might look like at your house.  My H, just withdrew more and more.  Yes, he's gone weeks without saying more than a dozen words to me.
This is a hard path and I wish you strength to walk it.
I've cried a thousand rivers. And now I'm swimming for the shore" (adapted from I'll be there for you)

thedoghousedweller

WearyHusband, the others have responded with a lot of wisdom.  ST is awful, and I am still getting used to it. 

I have experienced this every day for more than two years.  uSPDw read some book a while back that inspired her to give me the silent treatment.   At first, it was weird.  Why wouldn't my dear bride say hello back after I came home from work.   Why wouldn't she at least nod her head when I said I was going to the store?

It took me a while to recognize that in several ways, our marital relationship was over.  She had a medical excuse (that I fully believed at the time) that prevented her from sex.  Three years and counting.  It brings me tears to admit that she was in fact creating space from me because she saw me as a threat to her isolatory existence. 

She heavily encouraged me to find an office to work out of for my business because she said I was loud and that my presence in the house disturbed her peace.  I stopped bringing up anything remotely interesting for discussion because she clearly refused to desire to be in a discussion.  She started using text as her primary mode of communication, even if I am at home.  No matter who cooks, she absconds to her study room if I sit down at the dinner table. 

Recently, I have decided to let her go and not let ST bother me.  I no longer tell her where I am going when I leave the house.  I don't even look at her directly anymore.  I have a fairly full life and have a lot of friends so am more focused on those things.

Note that I will never cheat.  I am still bound by a covenant.  However, I really could no longer find my peace if I still had an expectation that she would come around, so to speak.  It's better for me to be a passing ship in the night than the puppy dog expecting attention only to be scolded by silence.

I hope that helps.  May God bless you as you work through this. 

DHD


Gettintired76

I've dealt with the berating, name calling, snide remarks, eggshells and the silent treatments. I'm so very sorry that your going through this. They were so good at drawing us in making us believe they truly cared about us. Anyway everyone on here has made some wonderful points on here, and I think we all need to take it to heart. Im sorry I don't have any words of wisdom or snappy advice, Im still trying to figure it out myself. It seems no matter how I try I can't get out of the circular arguments, the blaming, and of course the constant anger. I wish you best of luck my friend, and remember as I constantly try to, none of this is your fault.

Hilltop

Have you tried putting boundaries in place from your perspective.  Rather than saying "when you do the silent treatment"  come at it from your own feelings.  Start with telling her that you are not comfortable with how you deal with conflict between you and that when there are extended periods of no communication you find it stressful.  Tell her that you understand that she may need space but that you want to communicate differently from now on and if either of you are upset that you will tell the other person that you need space and the other person will give it.  However space is not weeks on end. 

The silent treatment is emotional abuse.  When you discuss this you could tell her that you will give each other space and come back to things in say 2-3 days, put a time limit on it.  If she isn't willing to do this or subjects you to the silent treatment for weeks on end you may have to suggest counselling.

My father would give me the silent treatment for months on end.  I walked on egg shells around the house, its really unhealthy to be subjected to this.  Its very stressful.

If it continues I would remove yourself emotionally and start engaging in life on your own terms.  Go for a walk, go watch a movie, distract yourself however living in that stressful environment will impact your health.  Its tough and I hope you find a way through. 

tragedy or hope

IMO... like noses we all have one, take this with your own wisdom. Just some thoughts...

what stops you from getting out of her way completely and moving somewhere she does not have to be in your purview. If you are in that much pain, be committed perhaps from another residence.

Option.. .tell her you will be willing to talk but until she can; you feel better also being alone and/or away from the house.

Coming home over and over to an abusive person who is not even trying with you is torture. Who does not want to be welcome in their own home.

I almost did this years ago, but things were worked out and I declined the final signature on the lease. You don't need to go far, but may need to go for awhile. That constant rejection is very hard to bear. You deserve more, and to be good to yourself first aka the 50-51% rule. Be gracious, firm and confident. You can love and be committed from a distance.

This move is extremely hard to do... and takes courage on your part. Sorry you too have to deal with being treated like a non existent person in your own home. Cruelty.
"When people show you who they are, believe them."
~Maya Angelou

Believe it the first time, or you will spend the rest of your life in disbelief of what they can/will do; to you. T/H

Family systems are like spider webs. It takes years to get untangled from them.  T/H

bloomie

Weary Husband - it sounds like a really painful pattern you and your W have going on. Pursuer - Distancer.

It also seems like the things you are been doing are not working to bring healing, trust, intimacy, respect, and the love you long for.

Even reasonably healthy relationships with two reasonably healthy and motivated people in them can be stuck in this pattern to a degree when faced with stress if one person naturally draws close when anxiety or difficulties arise,  and the other naturally pulls away and needs space to reduce anxiety and stress. It makes sense we are all different in how we respond to things. That can bring a lot of confusion and disconnection in our primary relationships.

But, when the innate kind of differences in how we respond to anxiety and stress become manipulative and withholding moves into a toxic place that creates an atmosphere of rejection, risk, and isolation where we are not safe to express our views and our needs are not considered, it is easy to believe we are powerless and become hopeless - or at least, it has been easy for me to believe that and feel that way in my own marriage.

I kept going toward my H - who is a distancer when under stress by nature, but does withhold to manipulate the relationship to stay in a level of connection he is comfortable with and where he can avoid responsibility for his choices as much as possible. As long as I continue to pursue someone who has withdrawn from me, I potentially create even more stress and anxiety in the relationship and can depend upon my H withdrawing even more, digging in his heels, acting out and eventually he will be mean with his words and position himself as a victim.

I'm not taking responsibility for his choices at all, don't misunderstand me, but what I have learned to do is take responsibility for my own choices in how I respond to the anxiety and urgency I feel when he puts up the 'closed' sign and I am outside that locked door, heartbroken and very alone and mystified.

You are recognizing that your behaviors - the CODA stuff, have changed nothing. That is a huge first step to breaking free I have found. Developing a plan and working with the one in the relationship who is most motivated to change (which was/is me) continues to be my recovery work and challenge.

When we stop trying to convince someone there is a problem when they don't have one and take back our lives - including our choice to stay in a relationship that may never meet our needs which is 100% my choice and side of the street - we are empowered not to inappropriately respond to inappropriate behaviors. We no longer allow abuse and we develop a plan to go forward when faced with these huge gaps in our relationships and the broken behaviors of others that is kind, respectful, considerate, empowered, and loving for ourselves as well as them.

What love looks like for me is refusing to engage in non productive and disrespectful conversations, refusing to take personally and be manipulated by another person's decision to withdraw and distance themselves, to recognize the situations and events that tend to be a breeding ground for this kind of behaviors - I no longer participate in those with my H, and I have built a rich and full life of my own.

I chose to stay for many very important reasons and on my own terms, but to do so I had to dismantle everything I ever believed about marriage and myself and look at all of the shoulds and oughts, hopes and dreams. I had to let go of a lot. And I had to grieve what I will never have. I am very real in saying it is one of the hardest choices I have ever made as I live it out.

I came here to Out of the FOG at first for support to deal with the 'gaps' and serious issues in my marriage and have realized over time I had some other primary relationships that I need support in as well. I don't know if my H has a big case of fleas or a full blown PD...? What I do know is what I had been doing... the pleasing, waiting and asking to be seen/known/loved, pursuing, never ever did anything but sting like a scorpion in the end and bow me down in false shame.

You have a lot to consider as you continue to heal and grow. Only you know what is best and right for you in your marriage and family - and that could change over time. I'm glad you are here and send you much wisdom and good strength as you move forward.





The most powerful people are peaceful people.

The truth will set you free if you believe it.

tragedy or hope

 Lovely thoughts and well spoken Bloomie. Encouraging and real.  :yeahthat:
"When people show you who they are, believe them."
~Maya Angelou

Believe it the first time, or you will spend the rest of your life in disbelief of what they can/will do; to you. T/H

Family systems are like spider webs. It takes years to get untangled from them.  T/H

WearyHusband

Yes, very helpful, Bloomie. And thank you to everyone who shared their experience and perspective on this topic. I have felt powerless for so long and I am gaining new perspective of the choices I have, an accurate picture of myself and my relationship. Fjelstad's book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" Was jaw-droppingly  insightful and helpful in realizing how long I have been letting my energy and power slip away As I took on the caretaker role. I am committed to not ever going back to the role I played in the dysfunctional relationship dynamics we had in the past. Now I believe only time, prayer, and continued growth will give me the perspective, courage, and wisdom I need to decide if I continue in our relationship or not. I've always thought divorce would be a terrible example for my children. This last year I've come to the conclusion that modeling a toxic, dysfunction marriage may be an even worse example. It's helped me to consider what advice I would give ito one of my children if they were in my situation.

Boat Babe

Quote from: WearyHusband on July 28, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
Yes, very helpful, Bloomie. And thank you to everyone who shared their experience and perspective on this topic. I have felt powerless for so long and I am gaining new perspective of the choices I have, an accurate picture of myself and my relationship. Fjelstad's book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" Was jaw-droppingly  insightful and helpful in realizing how long I have been letting my energy and power slip away As I took on the caretaker role. I am committed to not ever going back to the role I played in the dysfunctional relationship dynamics we had in the past. Now I believe only time, prayer, and continued growth will give me the perspective, courage, and wisdom I need to decide if I continue in our relationship or not. I've always thought divorce would be a terrible example for my children. This last year I've come to the conclusion that modeling a toxic, dysfunction marriage may be an even worse example. It's helped me to consider what advice I would give ito one of my children if they were in my situation.

In my personal opinion, based on my experience as a child of one violent parent  and one mentally  ill parent and my career in Education and Social Work, it is always best to give children a family life free of drama, conflict, confusion, fear, uncertainty, shame and God knows what else. Better one sane and loving parent than the toxic nest that PDs create for their families.
It gets better. It has to.

SonofThunder

Quote from: WearyHusband on July 28, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
Yes, very helpful, Bloomie. And thank you to everyone who shared their experience and perspective on this topic. I have felt powerless for so long and I am gaining new perspective of the choices I have, an accurate picture of myself and my relationship. Fjelstad's book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" Was jaw-droppingly  insightful and helpful in realizing how long I have been letting my energy and power slip away As I took on the caretaker role. I am committed to not ever going back to the role I played in the dysfunctional relationship dynamics we had in the past. Now I believe only time, prayer, and continued growth will give me the perspective, courage, and wisdom I need to decide if I continue in our relationship or not. I've always thought divorce would be a terrible example for my children. This last year I've come to the conclusion that modeling a toxic, dysfunction marriage may be an even worse example. It's helped me to consider what advice I would give ito one of my children if they were in my situation.

Yes, that book sheds light on so very much, and helps us understand ourselves and the role we play, as well as can alter.  I want to add a thought to you in your objective considerations.

Since I'm not experienced in divorce with kids, but have witnessed divorce with another gentleman with a PDwife with kids, I believe that most states in the USA (Weary, not sure what country/area you live) will side on custody of young children with the mother, or equal/joint custody, unless there is good protective reason to award full custody to the father.  (Again my opinion only and others here may gladly refute/correct me).

That said, I believe that in a divorce with a PDwife, that full custody to the PDwife or joint 'unsupervised' custody, could actually be worse for the young children than the couple remaining married and living in the same home (maybe some other threads address these experiences?).  In the latter (staying married), the nonPD is at minimum, 'supervising' and living by example in front of the kids, much more than in the full/50% PDwife custody divorce with the nonPDfather not around/not around 50%. 

I've witnessed that gentlemen's PDwife I knew, turn the PD behaviors up a few notches after divorce and use the kids to try and hurt the father, plus sway the children against him as they aged, not caring what emotional and physical affect it (on top of her other PD behaviors toward the kids) had on the powerless (no adult rights) children.

Therefore, in a divorce in that situation, I believe I would have had to show ample protective reason for my full custody (or supervised visitation) as a father, as again, I believe most states may side with the mother with regard to custody and father providing child support and/or alimony (given no protective reason against that).  In my opinion as a male, that would be very tough to get that court decision, as most PD behaviors happen in relationship circle 1(me) and 2 (kids) and so it's my word vs hers in the court, since circles 3-5 people (and other general public) know the PD in the facade the PD projects.

*But, some states have provisions in the law that a certain age child (I believe California's is 14 yrs of age for example) may be able to address the court to voice a choice in who they desire to live with.  So therefore check those laws in your country/province/state (not sure of ages of your children).

Those ideas may have weighed heavily for me,  because I believe that my children's safety and well-being is more important than my own, since I can keep myself in the 51% rule.  The children didn't have a choice in their parents (unchosen) and we had a choice (chosen) in spouses (50% rule). 

I do not personally believe that leaving a PD spouse to solely set an example of what/what-not adults should put up with, is a good enough reason to leave powerless children in the solo/partially-solo hands of a PD parent.  Again all my opinion for consideration or discard.

I don't also want to derail this thread, so again just interjecting these thoughts to your statement:   "I believe only time, prayer, and continued growth will give me the perspective, courage, and wisdom I need to decide if I continue in our relationship or not."

SoT
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

Boat Babe

Thank you SoT. My statement was predicated on being able to take the children and raise them away from the PD spouse. I did not take into consideration that many men with PD wives would not be in that position.  I am glad to be reminded. I am humbled by your story.
It gets better. It has to.

SonofThunder

#15
Quote from: Boat Babe on July 29, 2021, 02:35:58 PM
Thank you SoT. My statement was predicated on being able to take the children and raise them away from the PD spouse. I did not take into consideration that many men with PD wives would not be in that position.  I am glad to be reminded. I am humbled by your story.

Boat Babe,

I fully understand your statement and agree with you regarding the children.  I would guess, from my interactions here on Out of the FOG, that statistically there are more  female members on the forum. As a mother, the benefit of the court siding with the mother in custody, vs the PDfather, is a huge benefit for the children. Therefore, us males, such as WearyHusband and others, have that strong consideration, when contemplating separation/divorce. 

Your comments above, clearly state you also understand, but i am simply bringing light for WH to potentially contemplate, because as you wisely said:  "it is always best to give children a family life free of drama, conflict, confusion, fear, uncertainty, shame and God knows what else."

SoT
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

livinginmyhead

My husband used to do this.  After he screamed at me for literally hours a day or two before I was to go in for a medical procedure a surgical biopsy I dropped the rope, slammed up a wall and moved into the guest room.

He didn't like that I did that but it was that or leave and I think he knew that.  There was an extinction burst for a while where he got even more silent and foreboding but I dug my heels in.

I had remodeled the room already anticipating that I may have had to do that.  I turned it into a beautiful sanctuary for my daughter and I to sew in or just hang out.

I went at my hobbies extra hard but my hobbies also helped the household.  I sewed, gardened, cooked, cleaned, canned and dehydrated food, did all the yardwork and repairs and basically just ignored him for a few years.

At first, it felt wrong and hurtful to both of us but it was really the only healthy thing I could do short of leaving.

The person who said to stay and "supervise" and set an example....  That's pretty much what I did.  There was no way I was leaving my daughter alone with him and his disordered relatives.
"I don't need you to be happy. I just need you to leave me alone when I am!"-from "The Prizewinner of Defiance, Ohio

Don't be sad-good times are had beneath the paper sun.