indecisiveness

[Poison Ivy]

I have been thinking recently about my ex-husband's fear of making decisions. (It has come up now because I'm in the midst of making decisions about several thousand dollars' worth of home repairs that are necessary because of several years' worth neglect of the house by my then husband.) I know I can't change him. But I'm interested in other people's experiences with fear of decision-making and thoughts about the causes of the behavior.

[square]

Mine has difficulty, too.

When he was younger, he was responsible and proactive, but even then there was a difficulty, even if he pushed through it.

In his particular case, it's because he doesn't trust himself.

He has OCD, the type where he has to check if he did something, because he also has ADHD and isn't sure he did the thing. OCD has a relationship with devision-making as well. Hoarding is one example, sufferers can't decide if a thing has value or not. A hoarder I know also struggles to choose from a menu - maybe he'll get X but what if he would have preferred Y? And can't just push through that.

I think other people collapse from childhood experiences of being scapegoated. If a child is blamed for their choices, they can come to freeze before making them.

My H didn't have that, as far as I'm aware, but he got the message he was stupid, broken, something wrong with him. (PTSD was what was wrong).

Our relationship was clearly based on that. He felt I was competent. So he felt safer with a competent adult. At first we were still 50-50 but over time it slid. (As for me, I liked to feel helpful... sigh).

My last thought is that this thing we call depression, I think is not as vague and "feelings" based as we consider it, but as concretely physical as high triglycerides. When people have problems with dopamine, they lose their motivation. And decision making goes down the tubes with that, along with executive functioning. A lot of possible causes for that, of course.

I hope one or more of these ideas might ring a bell for you.

[Poison Ivy]

Thank you, square. These ideas do ring bells. My ex has had depression for most of his life, and his family environment wasn't the greatest. I think his father (now deceased) had NPD.

I think I knew about the depression before we got married. I didn't realize the extent of the indecisiveness until a few years in, when ex had a job offer out of state and could not or would not decide what to do. I ended up making the decision for us.

[square]

It seems to me an NPD parent can short circuit the natural process for acquiring decision making skills.

The parent may override all decisions, leaving no opportunity.for growth.

The parent certainly will break the relationship between cause and effect, in his feelings-based (rather than fact-based) worldview. So instead of your ex making age appropriate decisions and seeing the natural results, his father would likely have in some way met his own emotional needs by warping reality. Which could include tying something negative (real or imagined) to your ex's choices (actual or fabricated).

Also there is the whole learned helplessness factor, where if you are damned no matter what you do, you just lay down and brave yourself for the inevitable, as nothing you do matters in the end.

[WearyHusband]

I understand the difficulty of dealing with indecisiveness in a PD partner. Hang in there - it's not easy, but there are tools and skills you can develop to get out of these dilemmas. I'll share my experience...

Decision making together with my uPDw has been a constant, chaotic battle. As a husband committed to mutual decision making, (I'm also a fairly decision maker, achiever, Enneagram 3) this has been extremely difficult for me. I can hardly think of a decision over the 20 years of our marriage that hasn't spiraled into hours or days of back and forth, coming to a decision together only to hear her analyze a day later why the decision we just made is bad and we should choose another option. Then I wake up the next morning and she changed her mind again. Over and over and over. Sometimes, I think we've come to a decision together and I pull the trigger. Then she later becomes angry and says, "I never agreed to that!". It's baffling.

So many times, we've made a decision regarding our kids school, sports, etc. and indicate our commitment to the people involved, which required us to put down money. Then she "won't feel right about it", and I go "rescue" the situation by appealing to the people that we need to back out of our agreement. It has been extremely difficult.

May be hard to believe, but we traveled the United States for almost four years looking for a place to live (I'm self employed and the sole income earner, which allows us to do this). We looked at thousands of houses on Zillow and many cities and communities and she never felt right in any of them. The indecision about drove me nuts. Finally, I suggested we live near her parents, which she reluctantly agreed to. We found a great deal on a beautiful house. The papers were in order. We had five days to sign the contract. We talked for hours and hours over those five days. Finally, she agreed to sign the papers about ten minutes before midnight on the fifth day, though she had a far-away look in her eyes, like she was signing her life away. Making decisions is extremely difficult for her, and I've never been able to understand why. I think the finality of making a decision makes her feel "trapped", fearful of being wrong. She lives in a perpetual dysfunction of experiencing a false sense of freedom in the indecision - if there are infinite possibilities, she's not trapped. Choosing one option makes her feel trapped.

The commitment to mutual decision making in our marriage has sometimes worked well, but other times been a recipe for disaster. There just aren't clear boundaries or understanding for who's in charge of what in our decisions, though I'm working to change that now. Everything from where to go to dinner together as a family, to conversations about a $30 purchase I want to make for hiking equipment erupts into an unsolvable dilemma, leaving me feeling frustrated and angry. I'm embarrassed by how much power I've given to her to trump my decisions by her indecision, yet I don't want to be a forceful partner and just make decisions without her that affect her. It's just really tough with a PD partner.

Recently, I've been avoiding the whole indecisive trap. In areas where she is the principle decision maker (like where our kids go to school), I tell her my opinion, then I leave it to her to decide, and won't engage in hours of conversation about it. She'll be on the internet for hours and hours over many days going back and forth on what she wants to choose. I choose not to engage in the drama. I am learning to set boundaries around the areas that I am responsible for, tell her what I'm thinking and ask if she has any input for me to consider, then I just make my decision (investments, buying day to day items, my travel schedule for work, etc.) For my own sanity and mental and emotional well-being, I simply can't engage in endless back and forth indecisiveness. I want to value my wife's perspective (which often is very wise and helps me adjust my thinking), but I can't function well in life with endless back and forth and indecision. It leaves me feeling drained, exhausted, and also sucks time and energy away from other important things I want to focus on.

[Prototypian]

My spouse has that to an extreme.   She lives with things that are problems for decades rather than fix them and possibly have the change or fix maybe not be the right one.   In 28 years we have never hung a single picture, painting, photo or piece of art on any wall in our homes unless I hung it and listened to why it wasn't right.   She is afraid of something being "wrong".   We have missed flights because she couldn't decide what the correct route to the airport was (we live 10 minutes from there).

I think it's common in OCPD.   To some with this disorder there must be a correct way to do something and until that correct way is confirmed, they won't make a decision.   

I've also found the opposite is true.   If we start with something being done like the lawn and garden tools are all leaned in a corner of the garage and this solution lasts for a year or two and then someone purchases a hanging shovel and rake oralganizer, the old way with them leaning against the corner is the only way that can be done.   The change is always bad.

It's difficult and I don't understand how their brains come to these conclusions.

[escapingman]

In the beginning of my relationship to uNPDw I left alot of decisions to her, not because I couldn't make them but I thought they mattered more to her. For example, if we were to paint a room I didn't bother to much what colour we used. But what I found out the hard way is that every decision she made was not made by her, but her mum. Now, she has a very limited relation with her mum and therefor not asking for her advice as much and this leaves uNPDw in a state of not being able to decide anything. If she is buying new trainers, she buys 4 different pairs and then spends a week looking at them before she decides which one to keep, and then after returning 3 of them she would panic thinking she made the wrong decision and rebuy one of them before not being able to make a decision so she keep both pairs.

A few years ago we had an offer accepted on a dream house in my home country. It really was something we never thought we would find, but then when it was time to put pen to paper she found problem after problem until we eventually lost the house. And as soon as we lost it she wanted it and regretted not buying it. She still to this day go on about that we should have bought it, this makes me really sad as she stopped it. Recently we put a deposit in for a garden office and gym, I was very excited about this but on the last day of finalising it she decided she didn't want it and we had to back out and get the deposit back.

I do a lot of travel (before Covid) for work and used to ask her for most of my travel to make sure it was OK, but she could never give me proper answers so I stopped asking, both for work and leisure travel. I just book and put it in the family calendar. Since she can't make a decision if I can go or not I just book and go.

We never get anywhere with anything as she just can't make any decisions, and all decisions made by me will be my fault and blamed on me in the end.

[Hattie]

My Mmum won't make certain decisions. Eg. If we are going to a restaurant, she won't express a preference as to which type. She says "I'm easy!" and then leaves it to me to make the decision. I really hate it because I feel I am supposed to read her mind and meet her needs without them being articulated. We actually like very different types of food.

[tragedy or hope]

I see it as part of the PD constellation of behaviors. Like the cruel N who withholds affection, withholding and changing the answer in the nick of time gives them tremendous emotional control over others.

Same here, my unpdh can have lengthy conversations with me about home repair situations. I now know it is an exercise in futility for me. I am no longer disappointed or shocked by the final decision. It appears for him to be a cat and mouse game with me. I have learned to leave it alone. Hence, many home repairs take years to be rectified.
What he is doing in my observation is thinking through the best means of N feed for him. He hires inept people, talks to them as a friend, gets shoddy work then goes to the next one. Hiring a professional who would not stand around and listen to his religious haranging would be no fun for him.

I have learned to just live with a broken house on some levels, and keep myself in tact.

[WearyHusband]

Poison Ivy, so sorry what you're going through. Indecision can affect all of us, but I have no idea what causes this extreme behavior with PD's.

Escapingman, what you wrote could have been written by me with different details. It's really tough trying to be in a relationship with a PD and I hope you are able to find solace for yourself and a positive solution given the multi-country  legal dynamics you're facing.

In my marriage to uPDw, I've experienced years of back and forth discussions, circular arguments, making a final decision only to have my uPDw "not feel right about it" at the last minute and I try to get our deposit back. This has happened over and over and over.

When our second child was born, we agreed on a paint color for her room. I painted the room. My uPDw changed her mind and I painted the room THREE times. Early in our marriage, her indecision was funny. The longer we've been married it's become debilitating. I'm learning to say, "No."

Once, we bought a large tree and hauled it in a trailer into our backyard. It weighed probably a thousand pounds. After hours of debate about where to plant it, we agreed. I dug a hole and planted it. Immediately after, my uPDw didn't like where we put it and said, "I never agreed to this spot" and was angry with me. I was so confused. She accused me of forcing her into a decision. In the middle of a lightning storm, I attached a tow rope to my truci and pulled the tree out of the hole to plant it in a new place. That was years ago. I now avoid her indecision by setting boundaries around what I will decide with or without her consent - giving respect and asking her opinion regarding things that will affect her or our family.

I've felt powerless SO many times in our relationship regarding decision making - everything from finding agreement to where our family goes to dinner, to our kids' school, to where to live. Though I am the sole income earner in our family, my uPDw has wanted all expenses to be accounted for and all decisions to be mutual. Because I have been committed to mutual decision making and don't want to be a controlling a-hole, I complied with this. After it became impossible on a day to day level, I suggested, "I think we need to allot $100 per month/each that we don't have to account for." She would not agree to this. It's not a matter of secrecy or hiding affairs, it's a matter of being deprived of freedom and acquiescing to control and fear.

Earlier this year, after therapy, joining Out of the FOG, and focusing on recovering from Codependency, I quit seeking approval from her for financial decisions. In major purchases (like buying a car) I tell her what I'm planning and ask her if she has any thoughts about it. I ask her opinion about major financial decisions regarding our stock allocations, things that may affect her, etc. but know that sometimes I just need to make the decision in the end.

In minor decisions, such as purchasing something on Amazon, I now just do it, dealing with my own fear and anxiety about how she may/may not respond. Living my life and taking responsibility for my decisions. This seems to be working well, and I'm embarrassed at how much power I gave her over the years to approve of my decisions.

I feel embarrassed how weak and acquiescent I've been because of my value for honoring my spouse and wanting to do things together.
Some things we can do together, some things I must do on my own, without fear of how she may respond.
WH

[escapingman]

WeatyHusband., are we married to the same person? Every purchase I make has to been controlled by her, every receipt kept and every credit card statement matched against the receipts. If I come home with a box of serials she looks at the price and if she thinks it is 50 pence cheaper in another shop she will force me to take it back to the first shop and then rebuy it from the other. Lately I have started to "drop" receipts on my way home from the supermarkets and I have also stopped the credit card statements to be sent out (she hasn't noticed this yet but will go ballistic when she finds out). I am like you the only one bringing money in, but still she thinks she has the right to control it all. All money I bring in is shared but obviously a little bit more hers, but when she was given some money from her mum that was her money and hers only. It is quite sad and I get totally angry with myself that I am more careful with spending money on a coffee now than when I was a student and should have been more careful. I (She) have enough money to go to Starbucks 3 times a day every day without thinking about it, but she think that I need to take coffee in a flask. Nothing wrong with that in principle, but when it comes as a control thing and the receipts are scrutinised and you are told you could have saved such and such amount by doing as she says. She think I should give up my gym membership as it costs to much and I am not there as much as she is, but no problems for her to spend money on a personal trainer she doesn't need - she only goes for her narc supply and to be told how good she does (she still hasn't understood he is praising her to keep her as a paying customer).

As I said in another post somewhere, I have booked a couple of days away with SG. uNPDw is jealous and angry about it. We were supposed to go all of us but GC said she didn't want to go and uNPDw backed GC until I cancelled the original booking for 4 of us and rebooked for 2. She is now angry with GC for this, even though she was the one backing GC. Me and SG are are really looking forward to this but can't talk about it without uNPDw interfering and making it so obvious how jealous she is  , her control has gone so far on this that she is trying to tell us what to do on the trip. You should do A, B and C and if it was me I would have done D and E as well. Have you booked these things?

Hang in there Weary, we both are making progress (I think). Build boundaries and get ready for the future. Your story about the tree is so relatable, so many times have we planted something for me to have to dig it up and replant. Very tiring. 

[WearyHusband]

esacapingman,
Wow.
I'm sorry to hear your experience, but I feel strength as I can relate and empathize with your experience.

Four things have been a lifeline for me:
1) Marjorie Fjelstad's book, "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" recommended by @SonofThunder and others on Out of the FOG. I've actually booked an appointment with the author to get coaching regarding my relationship
2) Therapy and recovery from Codependency. I joined a 12 step Codependents Anonymous group and it is SO helpful.
3) Talking with a few close friends about my situation, getting their advice and perspective, opening myself to them as an accurate mirror since my uPDw wife is not a reliable source right now, and being accountable to them for how I want to live my life.
4) Choosing to make choices for myself that I believe are good, regardless of what my uPDw says or how she reacts. Since I started (slowly) developing courage and became willing to let her and her moods go, realizing they are beyond my control, I've experienced a lot more peace and sanity. If I make a decision to do something with our kids, I tell her what I'm thinking and ask her input since it may affect her schedule, but I don't wait for her approval. Until recently, my heart would race before every financial decision as I would become paranoid, thinking, "How is my uPDw going to respond to this?" I've realized her response is beyond my control and I need to live my life. I hope that life is WITH her, but in order for that to be a possibility, I needed to regain my self-esteem and act courageously (and lovingly).
And, UGH, the indecision about plants! I admit that I laughed when I read that you've had similar experiences.
Wishing you help and comfort as you journey forward.
-WH

[Cat of the Canals]

My Mmum won't make certain decisions. Eg. If we are going to a restaurant, she won't express a preference as to which type. She says "I'm easy!" and then leaves it to me to make the decision.

PDmil will declare, "We could go to X restaurant!" And we'll say, "Sure. Excellent." Then she'll say, "Or Y restaurant!" And we'll say, "If you'd prefer that, fine." And then she goes off on a tangent for an hour which eventually leads to her talking about how STARVING she is, and we'll say, "Then let's go eat." But then it's another round of five different restaurants we could go to and another tangent and this goes on and on. We learned eventually to seize on one the first time and say, "That's what we're doing. Let's do it now." Otherwise this pattern can repeat for hours, with her getting more and more whiny about being hungry.

I wouldn't say she's indecisive about much else. Choosing a restaurant is the only time I've ever witnessed it consistently. In her case, I think she likes having all the options still available. In her ideal world, she would get to go to ALL the restaurants at once and never have to choose.

[WearyHusband]

Cat of the Canals,
That is stunningly similar to my experiences with my uPDw over the years when going to restaurants. You just described what so many of our conversations are like when needing to make a decision, but not just with restaurants. It's baffling.
-WH