Controlling behavior - specifically re: clothing

11JB68 · July 26, 2021, 06:41:21 AM

I'm going to post about this from a slightly different perspective under Working On Us also. This is one of those things where I would love opinions as to whether I'm making too much of this.
uOCPDh has been slightly 'better' (??) lately - maybe, or maybe I'm just medium chilling and not JADE-ing so much that the behaviors/reactions have been muted a bit. Also-as I expected, I believe that 're-entry' post-COVID is going to bring out some of his 'stuff' (he was, I think, fairly content being sequestered in our home with just me and DS.) He has such triggers around what others think (of him, of me, of our house, of DS etc etc etc) - yet, of course there is HUGE discrepancy here in what he says/vs what he does - he would be the first to tell others not to care so much what others think, that it's not important to be liked etc. But what I think I've learned is that that is more about getting others to do what HE WANTS (and who cares what anyone else thinks about THAT). Anyway-there have always been issues around how we look (myself and DS)-DS hair is too long, JB's hair is too short, DS 'looks like a punk' because he's wearing a heavy metal tshirt, JB's skirt is too short or top is too revealing, JB is too dressed up for the occasion, JB is too casual for the occasion, DS's outfit 'looks gay' - etc etc etc. (uOCPDh dresses like an old man, I don't love it but I'm not going to tell him what to wear that's for him to decide). So Sat night we had friends over for the first time since COVID. These are two other couples, our age, known them FOREVER, very close/casual friends. I'm cooking, we'll eat, drink, hang out. I put on shorts and a tshirt with a band logo on it. Folks are due to arrive in less than an hour, I'm starting dinner. uPDh comes in to the room where I'm sitting and says "Is that what you're wearing?" Me: yes. Him: really? Me: yes. Him: it's not very dressy is it? Me: we're just having the x's over-it's not a 'dressy' occasion. Him:That's not a flattering shirt. (this is where I'm now getting upset and trying to MC it and not JADE but inside I'm struggling) Me: ok. Him:Just something about the logo it's too big and they way it's all over the front of the shirt. Me: ok. ...then he does this thing that I'm pretty sure was some type of a mind-game/manipulation in which he was going to wear shirt x 'but it's too snug, so I'm going to *choose a different shirt*... (Again, am I reading too much into this? But I feel like, this is a guy who has read every book about communication and sales techniques and body language and I really think he knows how to manipulate!) ...as is typical he will not let this go and continues to make comments. Eventually I did go change my shirt. Because at some point I had become extremely self-conscious about how I looked and didn't want to spend the evening like that. Also, I did NOT want to end up in a full-on FIGHT over it. Later, he sees me and says 'thank you'. (How many times throughout this did I give him the finger behind his back, oh like 10!) I went in the kitchen turned up my bluetooth music and prepared dinner.
Some of the things that were red flags for me when I started to come Out of the FOG were things like this - him freaking out that I had had my hair cut short, him freaking out over DS's clothes, etc.
It just feels SO CONTROLLING. And so manipulative.
Now, I would not wear this shirt (it was not 'offensive') to his aunt's cookout. But I think in my own home with my own friends I should be comfortable. Furthermore - I like this shirt and I THOUGHT it was kinda cute actually. Now I may never wear it again-this will go in the 'working on us' post - because for me it is now tainted-It will just remind me of this situation forever. I HATE that. That has happened with other things for me as well.

SonofThunder · July 26, 2021, 07:20:47 AM

Hello 11JB68,

I'm sorry you and your family deals with this. My uPDw will attempt the same thing. No, you are not reading into it too much. It is imo 100% about your uPDh concerned about what other think about him and is attempted coercion, control and manipulation of you. Imo, it's gaslighting as well, as he's trying to make you
/DS feel uncomfortable about you; that you have something wrong with yourself if you would choose something for yourself that is not a 'good choice'. It's all a BS smokescreen hiding his own insecurity.

Before I came Out of the FOG, my uPDw did the exact same thing. There is a boundary for you here, and it is: "I will wear anything I want to wear, if it appropriate for the occasion and if I believe it's ethically, morally and lawfully ok to do so, and if my uPDh causes drama over my clothing, hair or any other style choices for myself, I will use the Out of the FOG toolbox to its full extent (MC, noJADE, boundaries, 51% rule) , to keep the drama to a minimum level and duration".

If you change your style upon uPD's request, it is a boundaries victory over you for your husband and is fuel for continuation of that behavior. I want to suggest you take it one step further. In matters of personal preference (not ones that violate ethics, morals or laws), I decided a few years back after coming Out of the FOG, that my uPDw had slowly and subtly altered my style over years, to something she chose for me, because it aligns with her style and she believes we look better together when we align. But the style she chose is really not representative of who I am, nor was pre-marriage.

Therefore, part of my coming Out of the FOG and boundaries is to steadily return back to myself (my style, my interests, my hobbies etc...). I no longer ask for opinions from my uPDw on hairstyle, glasses, facial hair style, clothing choices, shoes, vehicle choices, other articles of everyday-carry (briefcase, backpack, wallet etc..). My new style is definitely a return to myself and I am here to tell you it is very empowering, even to your ability to be strong in other toolbox areas of your life. If my wife tells me she doesn't believe my choices are appropriate for an occasion, I tell her I'm sorry she doesn't believe they are, and leave it right there (noJADE, MC). She will silent treatment me from there forward and that just activated more toolbox methods in which to utilize .

After a period of time, she knew from failed experience, that I was not going to alter my choices and so even though she is not in favor of my new style, she doesn't like losing, so she doesn't speak out loud, but uses silent treatment methods (looking me from head to toe, shaking her head, ignoring me, mumbling, door slamming, etc..) to let me know she's displeased. Too bad. LOL at one point, my uPDw even accused me of having an affair because I was not dressing in ways she would choose.

I will add that if my wife suggests something that I actually approve of for myself, I will state that I approve of that opinion and will wear it. If she purchases something for me, that she believes will look good on me, I will choose it on occasion and let her know I chose to wear it, to honor the gift. BUT, I now purchase 90% of my clothing purposefully and do not discuss my purchases in advance.

I will not purposefully do things inappropriately, such as go very casual to a formal event, as that is actually going against the choices of the event host, and I can opt out of the event if I don't desire to dress formally. So therefore I'm always dressed appropriately for the occasion (such as your casual get-together) but 100% in the style of my choosing. Again, I believe you will find it empowering and also be a great modeling experience for your DS to learn by watching you stand up for yourself in areas of personal preference.

Happy self-styling wishes and enjoy more of being YOU !!

SoT

xredshoesx · July 26, 2021, 07:57:01 AM

i experienced this with my biological mother, one of her husbands, and my mother's parents. it was for me always 100% about controlling me with some strange

a timeline of examples

- i grew up wearing my male cousin's hand me downs. the only dresses i owned were sent by grandmother

- i get sent to live with grandparents because of uPD mom's stuff. grandparents won't let me wear pants or cut my hair. it's the mid 70s but i still look like 1952.

-fast forward to 6th grade biological mom comes back into picture and starts dating her future 2nd husband. all of a sudden i can wear pants and get a haircut.... this is my mother rebelling against HER mother through me.....

-nobody gives a shit about what i wear or how i look again until i'm in 11th grade and my mom is divorcing her 2nd who got custody of me over her or her parents....now my step father decides everything about how i look is wrong and takes all my clothes away and makes me wear dresses/ skirts and i can't wear black.....

-my mother gets custody of me again in 12th grade and lets me do what i want but i still am supposed to follow the 'house' rules from her parents because we live with them so i still am supposed to be wearing skirts or dresses.

-i run away and when i return at almost 21 my grandparents said i could only live at home if i followed their rules....

none of this had anything to do with me. fwiw i wear practical clothing- cargo shorts, sturdy shoes and t-shirts. i do appreciate a witty slogan shirt! nothing i ever wore was so objectionable that it would have caused an issue- it was always about control and power... i got married in pants and have only worn a dress or skirt a handful of times since i moved out on my own.... take your power back here 11jb68 and let your husband sulk if he doesn't like or approve of your choices.

square · July 26, 2021, 08:01:25 AM

In regard to the shirt itself.

When he started telling you what was "wrong" with the shirt, he likely did not even believe the criticisms he listed.

He had some agenda in terms of what he wanted you to wear. Maybe he wanted you to wear something slightly sexy so he could show you off to the friends so he could feel superior. He may not have actually disliked your band tshirt, other than that it did not fulfill his agenda for that day.

He wasn't exactly going to tell you his agenda - who knows, maybe he wasn't even fully conscious of it. But he had to give you "reasons" so he did. Those reasons could well have been completely made up. I mean, really, the logo was too big?

It's easy to say "who cares what he thinks, wear what you like," but I know it's not always easy to fight against the list of complaints you were given.

But if you realize that even HE might not believe it, it takes the power out of the words rattling around in your head.

I have no thoughts about what you should have done on that day - you draw your line where you like, and choosing to forestall a fight before company, well, I get it, as infuriating as it is that you were put in that position. But I hope you can wear the shirt in the future, knowing you can't take ANYTHING he says seriously.

losingmyself · July 26, 2021, 09:01:38 AM

I work at a place that makes shirts, so I get t shirts very cheap, and it's my usual work attire. A while ago, I got one that was for a bar. I thought it was cute, it had drunk pigs on it.
I don't know what the thing was about it, but H complained and was angry for 3 days because he didn't like that t shirt. I have never worn it again. I know it's controlling, and it's like he won, but I don't feel like putting up with that crap over a shirt.
Alternatively, I have been letting my hair grow longer and he hates it. He wants me to cut it short like I had it a few years ago. I'm just not going to do that, I like my hair.
Maybe I'm choosing my battles. Maybe look at it that way..
Also, what Square said....

Cat of the Canals · July 26, 2021, 10:38:36 AM

Good gravy. So much drama over a t-shirt! I do not think you're reading too much into the comment about how he was going to wear X shirt but decided to wear something else. It's this subtle "I changed my mind... you could too!" It's like he's giving you "permission" by suggesting it isn't such a big deal to change your mind on what to wear.

In the future, I would consider the fact that, like square mentioned above, he doesn't actually believe his own critiques. In fact, it sounds like this is an ongoing manipulation to get you to change just to prove that he can. I think the fact that he gave you a satisfied, "Thank you" after you've changed shows that. Thank you???? For what? For complying with his demand. Because that's what this is really about.

It sounds like he cares an awful lot about what others think, so he was probably very anxious before this gathering. He felt out of control, and he immediately started casting about for someone or something to control. He chose your t-shirt, probably because this exact tactic has worked in the past. He nagged and nagged and nagged... until you finally changed. And just like that, now he's back in control again.

If you'd originally been wearing whatever you changed into, I bet he would have found a fault with that. Or maybe it would have been the shorts or your shoes or the lipstick you were wearing.... He would have chosen something to pick at, but it's all a game to make himself feel less insecure.

11JB68 · July 26, 2021, 11:38:12 AM

Wow. You all have hit the nail on the head as usual. This is one thing I love about this group. I feel like I'm doubting myself, am I making too much of this, am I reading too much into it...and then you all pretty much say um, no, you're right on!
It so feels like he is purposely using mind tricks/coercion to get me to do his bidding.
And yes, Cat the 'thank you' after almost made me angrier than what preceded it!! and Yes, he was feeling anxious and out of control and needed to control something. I have identified this behavior to him before and he seems to acknowledge it, but also never seems to have any desire to change it.
Square: "When he started telling you what was "wrong" with the shirt, he likely did not even believe the criticisms he listed.
He had some agenda in terms of what he wanted you to wear. Maybe he wanted you to wear something slightly sexy so he could show you off to the friends so he could feel superior. He may not have actually disliked your band tshirt, other than that it did not fulfill his agenda for that day."
Exactly. In the past if I questioned him he would go crazy coming up with some convoluted 'reason' that makes NO SENSE. (e.g. one time Ds was ready for a school event. Dressed nicely, sort of stylish, maybe a bit 'geek-chic/hipster'. uPDh wants DS to be a 'mini-him' dress like a preppy old man. SO he pitched a fit, made DS change his clothes, then railed at me later / angry/ raging and said the prior outfit 'looked gay'. I asked HOW did it 'look gay'?? He came up with: the shirt had two front pockets so it was 'too symmetrical' (????)
Maybe he wanted you to wear something slightly sexy so he could show you off to the friends so he could feel superior. THIS is very likely on some level. (On the other hand, if I wore something 'too' short/revealing/etc he'd have an issue with that as well.

Thank you all for your thoughts and support

Fortuna · August 16, 2021, 01:25:32 PM

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it was about getting others others to do what he wants. You may want to pretend that he has no fashion sense at all (which based on your description is not a stretch) and just be a broken record, saying Thanks for your thoughts but I'll wear this, or I think JB or DS really pull off that look. (Side note I personally would be up in arms if anyone used gay as a slur against my own child. I firmly believe it's not a slur and the word should not be used in a derogatory way as they is setting up your DS to use that word that way too and have hurtful attitudes towards the LGBTQ+ community. )

My mom once got all in a bother that my perfectly standard t-shirt collar was revealing. (I didn't show collarbone to give you an idea) Next time I saw her I deliberately wore a shirt with a lower cut neckline. She commented again. So the process repeated. Thankfully she seemed to understand that I wasn't going to be body shamed before I had to spend money on plunge necklines. At least with my mom it was about putting my self esteem in a place where i was more likely to listen to her and do what she wanted, and body shaming, which is what he is doing with revealing, too snug and such comment and the rest is trying to undermine your own personal style and judgement, so you feel like you aren't good enough to make a decision without him. The actual clothes you have on don't matter, it's the fact YOU chose them. Please do what you can to protect yourself and your kids from this kind of tear down.

11JB68 · August 16, 2021, 09:00:47 PM

Thanks fortuna.
DS is very open minded and has definitely not picked up a negative attitude toward LGBTQ+.
Fortunately.
I have privately talked with him about the fact that I am fine with whomever he wants to be with etc.
Weirdly Updh is not overtly homophobic etc...
Lots of his 'rules' are totally arbitrary.
Very bizarre

11JB68 · October 03, 2021, 10:20:49 PM

As a weird follow up to this one.... In the midst of updh's overreaction to his health issue.... He was still in a snit on Friday night. We had an event on Saturday that we would need to get up early and leave early etc. Since I know he can create chaos at the last minute I was trying to be proactive and mentioned when the three of us were together that we should e.g. figure out what we are wearing tonight. Updh got annoyed by that and said basically it didn't matter as it was Ds event not ours (but he's the one always advising me that I'm over or under dressed). He said he'd wear Dockers and a polo shirt, was that ok? Sure. Insisted I tell him what I'm going to wear. Then he grabbed a worn pair of Dockers from his chair and said he'd wear those! (Really? Not even clean pants???) And also made it like I was making a big deal of something unimportant. (In my mind I'm thinking, but you're always the self appointed fashion police!)

square · October 03, 2021, 11:07:33 PM

My take is that he sensed you were trying to forestall a problem and maybe felt called out or wanted to remain in control. So he purposefully baited you with the not-fresh shorts.

It was a good idea to try, though. Let's see how it goes.

11JB68 · October 04, 2021, 11:19:25 AM

Square - possibly - I still don't see him as being that conscious of what he's doing or purposeful but I had that thought yes. In the end he saw I was wearing jeans and decided to wear jeans. I honestly don't care what he wears. But he acts as if he has never caused complete chaos at the 11th hour around what other folks are wearing, so seemed confused by my wanting to be proactive about it

Cat of the Canals · October 05, 2021, 05:32:59 PM

Quote from: square on October 03, 2021, 11:07:33 PM
My take is that he sensed you were trying to forestall a problem and maybe felt called out or wanted to remain in control.

I think PDmom does this sometimes with enDad. After my brother's wedding, they had a house full of guests. I rode with my mom to drop her sister off at the airport. When we got back to my parents' house, my dad was cleaning up after everyone had eaten lunch. He was about to put the stuff back in the fridge, but he stopped and asked us, "Have you guys eaten yet?" (The obvious implication was that he would make us sandwiches or leave it out for us to make our own if we hadn't eaten.) But mom flew into a rage, screaming, "OF COURSE WE HAVEN'T EATEN!" as if it was the stupidest question on the planet.

What's interesting about it is that my mom was definitely stressed out having so many guests to take care of (a problem entirely of her own making), and my dad definitely knew this and was trying to find a way to ease some of the burden, but she engineered a classic "damned if you do/damned if you don't" scenario. If he clears away the food without offering, he's being thoughtless. If he asks if we've eaten, he's being stupid.

Just another way they create drama even when everyone else is trying desperately to avoid it.

pianissimo · October 08, 2021, 05:04:16 AM

In these cases, I try to remind myself my truth. We know how to conduct ourselves. We know when we do it right and when we do it wrong. We know when it's a big deal and when it's not. Our past is the proof of that. The way we dressed up was OK in the past, so it should be OK now too.

I think any comment on looks by a person who doesn't care about our well-being is a covert attack. That's why it's provoking. The comment aims to reduce who you are to how you look. I think it makes us feel more hurt than angry because we always carry this wound that we are not good enough.

It might be the case that you were not so presentable that night. Then, everybody would have to get on with it. You are more than what you wear, and most people are able to see beyond clothes and accessories.

11JB68 · October 08, 2021, 03:28:52 PM

a funny ps to this one - a friend who was at my house on the infamous t-shirt night (and who I later told that story to) called me and was commenting on photos from our event last weekend and said, for someone who criticizes what you wear h looked really dumpy and unkempt! (I laughed out loud and then told her about the discussion we had had)....