My DH's Friendship with the NPD/Abusive Neighbor *TW's*

[DistanceNotDefense]

Hello all - it's been a while since I've posted here. I hope all you fantastic FOG'rs are doing well, holding to boundaries, and staying healthy 

My DH's mental health has been deteriorating through the pandemic. It also came to my attention (he had been hiding it from me) that my FOO 's smear campaign really sunk into his mental, too, he finally admits (NC with FOO after I learned they were talking among themselves/others that DH is a wife beater.) 

A few weeks after all that blew up, DH said he was "over it" and fine, and even said he'd be open to seeing my family again even though they think he is trash and I definitely wasn't open to it (that hurt - it felt almost like he sided with them, when really he just didn't want to acknowledge his feelings). But it's clear now he just internalized the shame, and he has been finding unhealthy ways to medicate, but trying to get back on the "right track" these past few weeks.

Anyway, during this period he started to spend more time/get closer with certain friends nearby, I guess to medicate and feel less alone. And to also give himself space from my NC grief, which I think was not giving him what he needed/draining him (I had very little to give during that time, in emotional I.C.U.)

One of these friends is awful and I'm very certain would rank very high on the narcissism spectrum. Always felt that way. But recently found out more things out about him that are terrible and confirm he is probably uNPD.

This friend (I'll call him Kenny, not his real name) gave me and my husband some serious red flags right at the very beginning, one of the first few times he was over. He alluded to getting in a fight with his wife one night and how he thought about opening his gun safe and "blowing them all away" (wife and kids). When he said this my eyes got wide and I promptly left the room, leaving my husband awkwardly there with him. Maybe it was a joke/hyperbole, but saying that around people you've just met is disturbing.

Not disturbing enough for DH apparently. Despite that, their friendship somehow persisted all through the pandemic. And they even got closer. DH just said, we're good fishing buddies, that's all. Despite the fact that this friend did not respect COVID guidelines and DH continued to hang out with him, thus endangering both him and myself to COVID (source of many arguments).

Kenny would show up often unannounced on our property during critical work days for me, our husband, and our business. Just to hang out and have a bunch of beers. There were no boundaries at all. It was clear he was viewing our place as his new weekend getaway, and worse, allowing him to not return home to help is wife and kids with house duties - but just get drunk.

I would take issue with this, but DH wouldn't push back against Kenny and continued to enable him. He would actually cave and get distracted, and sometimes work days would just turn into these hangout evenings with Kenny and important things would get pushed off (and definitely more than once this made my responsibilities heavier).

I tried to tolerate this man's presence at first but after a while couldn't even be in the same room as him. He would interrupt, talk over people, not listen to anybody, grandstand and talk ages without letting anyone else have a word, be racist, sexist, homophobic, extremely self-pitying,  etc. This still didn't change my DH's mind about him. DH enjoyed trying to "argue down" Kenny's beliefs and challenge him on his terrible views (DH is completely opposite of Kenny in ideology but LOVES to argue/debate for sport). There was this ego-stroking aspect to the friendship that DH thought he was "getting through" to him.

*TW*

Then a few weeks ago, we had Kenny's wife visit us in the middle of the night when Kenny was away. (Kenny was on a drinking bender and getting in fights at the bar - yeah, a real class act). Kenny's wife revealed that lately, Kenny had been a terror to her and her kids. They were hiding from him whenever he came home. He was yelling and raging and fighting with her all the time, and leaving her at home without access to money for house needs for her and the kids, and just drinking it all away.

My DH was shook by this while I was not at all surprised Kenny was this way, and had only been presenting himself to DH as some hardworking "good ol' boy" who does nothing but work hard for his family, while his wife is just lazy and "broken" and does nothing around the house, and he deserves to blow off so much steam. DH had believed it hook, line, and sinker.

Kenny's wife said she was thinking of separating and even divorcing him - and the truth is that he is never home and his wife is drowning under everything with four kids, he is always avoiding home. I asked, have you tried to leave before. She said yes, but Kenny went into scary stalker mode, hounded her, followed her around, followed her to the place where she was staying to get away from him, and even tried to run over her on a four-wheeler and throw the family pet at her in a rage.

*End TW*

DH also asked her, "has anything I've said gotten through to him" and she said "Of course not nothing gets through to him."

Since that night, my DH decided to swear off being friends with him and felt extremely flattened, humbled, and heartbroken that he had only been stroking his own ego in this friendship the whole time. I guess DH had ways thought he was being some sort of good influence on him (oh, the hubris...)

But Kenny's boundary-less-ness is already a part of our lives and since then he's already shown up once on our property uninvited, putting DH in an uncomfortable position, and from what I honestly can tell "FOGging" him. DH feels like he can't just tell Kenny to leave or make it obvious he can't be friends with him, and doesn't have the backbone enough to call out Kenny for, well, being abusive (and for that matter, it could possibly endanger his wife, who came to us without Kenny knowing).

I made it clear I do NOT like Kenny being on the property at all and that it seems he has also been a terrible influence on DH. I also found out DH has been talking to Kenny about our marital arguments for perspective, which I find HIGHLY disturbing and it has also partially explained why DH has felt so "off-track" / caught up in his own emotional world lately: he's been in an echo chamber of men who deal with emotional struggles by not being at home, not helping their partners, being emotionally unvailable to their wives, and just drinking, drinking, drinking. (I have been really trying to push therapy hard on my husband but he is very resistant, and for many reasons, including his ADHD, he is at a breaking point where he needs it to function better in our marriage and in general, period.)

But just the other day, he starts toying with the idea of Kenny being his fishing buddy. Not coming over, or inviting him over, ever, but just fishing with him.

I can't control my husband's friendships but even this I find disturbing, that DH would even want to fish with him!

Sorry for the long post...OOTFers, what would you do and what is your take? My experience with NPD people who are abusive like this, it's to set boundaries that are so strong that it's like sealing your relationship with them in an airtight crate and throwing it out to sea (as I've learned with my dysfunctional FOO, but that's just me....and there is so much peace on that front now). But my DH is not that way, he is a people-pleaser and internalizes so much shame. He wants people to like him. Even Kenny.

Would you say something like "absolutely no Kenny, ever again?" knowing you're making the right choice for the health of yourself, your spouse l, and your marriage even though it may burn certain bridges... because he doesn't seem to know better.

Or, would you allow him to learn it all on his own, tacitly let him keep a door open to Kenny in his life... when that could affect me, always knowing that this highly triggering person could potentially show up on our property randomly with no advance notice and who has never responded to people's requests to call or text ahead (including others in our community who avoid him - when he shows up here I just go inside and hide and he's never here long.)

Sorry for this mess of a post - and thank you in advance....🙏 (I can never not be long-winded  )

TL;DR: Would you say absolutely NO to your DH having a friendship with someone who is a highly abusive uNPD, and crosses boundaries into your collective life even if DH tries to keep the friendship far away from you so it doesn't interfere with you (though that is never guaranteed due to the PD's boundary-less-ness...) ... or would you acknowledge you shouldn't try to control your spouse's choices (even though it's clear he doesn't know better and is easily influenced) and hope he eventually learns that this friend is nothing but destructive and not worth it.

[Andeza]

You've got a lot going on. This is a lot for anybody to deal with and it's complicated and messy. Personally, I can only speak from my own shoes and what I would do thrust into a similar situation. I think your husband needs some therapy as well, but you can't force people to do stuff they don't want to without inviting resentment. I would, in your shoes, hand him "Boundaries" and "Codependent No More" (think I got the title right) and ask him to read them as a personal favor because you think they could be game-changing for him. Because he absolutely sounds codependent. He needs abusive, narcissistic people in his life to find his value... That's not healthy. That is the root that needs to be addressed or else he will just jump from the frying pan into the fire, again. Which is what he's done with your FOO.

Second, I would not ban the friendship. I know that's hard, but again forcing that requirement may only cause resentment. What I would do is calmly, politely, sit down with my DH, tell him I have serious concerns about my safety when "Kenny" is around, and as such he's no longer welcome in OUR family home or on OUR family property. And if I find him there, I'm going to do one of two things (whichever you're more comfortable with). Either I'm going to pack up and leave and I won't be back for a couple of days to be sure the dude is gone and I am safe, or I'm calling the police to remove him.

It's all unpleasant. There isn't really a cotton candy cloud glowing in the sky with the right answer floating on it and a choir going "AHhhhhhh!" No matter what you do, there will most likely be conflict. Either conflict between you and your husband, you and Kenny, or him and Kenny. But people like that... Nope. Just nope right out of that one. There is NOTHING but trouble there. I've known the type. I've stewed over my inability to say anything to my friends that would convince them not to have that type of person in their life, but ultimately, the choice is with them. I have no patience for the sort and have flatly refused to engage on any level. I put out enough ice queen/confidence vibes that they generally choose to avoid me.

[Sapling]

Hi DistanceNotDefense,

This sounds really stressful and I agree with Andeza- there is no easy way out of this situation. You are right to consider how Kenny's wife may be affected by this too. I do not think that any good would come from DH "calling him out" as an abuser and I think it could endanger his wife's safety. From your post it sounds like DH does not realise that all the ego stroking he has done in the friendship (arguing down Kenny's political views etc and feeling more clever and righteous than Kenny) has been at his cost, not Kenny's. People like Kenny have a radar for other people's shame and I doubt that DH got the idea he was being a good influence on Kenny without Kenny's help.

It sounds to me like DH needs to find his own way out of the friendship. If I were in your shoes I would not ban the friendship, for the following reasons:
1. That would be me making the decision for DH, and thus absolving him of the responsibility to set boundaries with abusive and unsafe people
2. It could rob DH of the opportunity to reflect and discover for himself why he needs such friendships in his life and what he is trying to fill with Kenny (this could be a very powerful door into healing and self-knowledge for him).

You are completely within your rights to say you don't want Kenny in your home and to have a conversation with DH about considering your safety in your own home. It sounds like boundaries were not set early on when Kenny showed up unannounced. I feel for you, because this is a difficult situation. I hope some good will come out of  this unpleasantness on the other side.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Once again, this incredible forum delivers unparalleled support  thank you Andeza and Sapling, for responding! I am dealing with so much right now and I honestly feel like some of the humans on this forum probably give some of the best, warmest, most empathetic, and helpful advice you can find on this planet during some of the darkest of times. It makes me feel more supported, so thank you.

(Aside to the moderators: I meant to post this in friends, acquaintances, neighbors etc. subforum feel free to move this if need be. Shows how scattered I've been lately that I made the mistake)

Thank you Andeza - I've been pushing therapy and certain readings/books on DH for a while now, but in the spirit of your advice, I think I need to back off because he is nothing if not resistant/oppositional defiant (ADHD issue). I really wish he'd learn more about his patterns and the toxic friendships he gets sucked into, and on my part it's healthier for him to learn on his own, make up his mind, and learn how to establish his own boundaries. And I need to just establish my own to protect myself from his choices.

I do think he is also codependent. It's been an issue between me and him, too - as I've battled my own codependent tendencies post-FOO, it's a real testament that he has latched onto toxic individuals to cope, and the source of many of our marital struggles right now are his own lack of boundaries with me (I've had to create a lot with him to help me with the grief and all it entails).

Sapling, what you say is so true! DH has gotten NOTHING out of this friendship, except marital strife with me. And I think that's why DH has now been avoiding Kenny a while finally, because we've done nothing but fight over how violated I feel and it's turned DH into people-pleasing guy in the middle, between Kenny and I. I'm grateful he finally bucked up and stood up for me over him, with avoiding him. (He is also actively trying to support Kenny's wife instead, and we both encouraged her to cut and run with the kids.) But then there is still the problem (the one time in the last few weeks) where he just shows up here, unannounced, and throws a wrench in everything, and DH being unable to just say "go away."

In true Narc supply fashion, I do believe that DH's "ego-stroking" was actually just supply for this friend all along and to his detriment. DH doesn't realize that's what those behaviors do with certain people when you get pulled into their orbit - it just feeds them and their self-importance while you just lose more and more of yourself. Kenny only ever seemed amused by the conflict and attention. No sign of changes or wanting to change. His reality is locked solid.

My heart has told me not to "ban" the friendship, too. For all that Kenny has given me the willies, DH is stubborn for one, and won't learn anything with me calling the shots. DH has acknowledged that he's opened the door to a mess, though: he now has a boundary-less friend who just shows up here randomly and who he now too feels kind of "ill" around. He also respects me and has been trying to keep Kenny far away from me for a while now, out of the house, out of sight on the property too, knowing how much I dislike him (and I just keep inside and do my own thing). Kenny senses I dislike him too and I think avoids me (there's that ice queen for you, Andeza ) Like you, I do NOT give an inch to people like this. It boggles me that DH blew through so many red flags, when they are so obvious to me and I can't help but freeze these people out.

What I hope he realizes is that ANY form of friendship/company with this friend, even if it is to keep the peace for Kenny's wife, for his marriage, and for myself, is people-pleasing and not of benefit to him (either of them!) in the long run. DH has stated that the only time he is willing to spend with Kenny is fishing or hiking in the woods, but I wonder if he can stand him even then now knowing how abusive Kenny really is.

Here's to hoping that DH can keep it up and be truly self-reflective.... something he naturally struggles with. But which he may need to learn, in order to keep the peace in his life and with himself....