The constant criticism

[escapingman]

So, uNPDw complains, she complains a lot, she complains about everything. It is wearing me down, it's wearing the children down, it always ends up in big rows between her and one of the children or me. Since I got Out of the FOG I can see the damage she is doing, but she can't see it. For example when we are eating lunch together, she keep telling us (mainly SG) to close her mouth, stop being messy, pull her sleeves up, sit with her legs straight, pick up the crumb that fell on the floor then gradually escalate it shouting at her for the mess on the floor, the food around her mouth, the stains on her clothes, the fingerprints she managed to make on the walls, then just brings about anything she can think of. I try to calm this as much as I can and support SG (or GC if it is her).

But to my real problem which I am struggling to find a solution to. As uNPDw complains about everything the kids have got used to all made up complaints and not really take much notice about them. So when they do something naughty, such as kicking a football in the living room, swearing, or hitting each other and I tell them off they get really angry and immediately accuse me for being on uNPDw's side. The really difficult bit here is that if uNPDw hear me tell them off, she comes running shouting at the top of her voice thinking that if I tell them off then she can shout as much as she wants. So naturally I try to tell them off without her hearing it, which also makes the kids shouting back at me to be quiet as they don't want uNPDw to hear me telling them off.

I get that they are pushing the boundaries with me as I am the "normal" parent, but at the same time I need to try to tell them when they do wrong. But boy is this a hard task to balance. Any suggestions on how to manage this until I am out of this hell?

[Starboard Song]

I am so sorry that you are dealing with this.

I would try to break down the errors into categories: times when your DW is correcting are truly wrong, but minor; times when it doesn't even warrant correction; times when it really did require correction, but not loud and demeaning correction.

When you say you have to "tell them off," it sounds like you correct them with anger and volume rather than substance. I'd encourage you to practice a super calm approach that is so very different than what your wife might do. Kicking a football in the living room? You can calmly get their attention with one firm call out: "heads up!" or "Woah!" or "Hang on!" And then you can speak to them. "Kids, this looks like fun. But we don't kick footballs inside. You can break things in here. Now skedaddle outside to play roughly, and don't play rough like that in here any more." You can speak like that in the bored tone of a bad professor. You can smile. You can tousle their hair. Because even when correcting them you love them. And you are always calm and in charge.

Your kids will know that you are correcting their behavior, not criticizing them. They'll know that you love them. Kids can tell the difference.

Good luck to you.

[notrightinthehead]

Good advice above.
Mothers used to threaten with : " I am going to call/tell your dad" and that did the trick. 

[escapingman]

Thanks for your feedback, when writing telling them off it isn't as hard as you might have thought. The times I have to raise my voice is when they fight each other and swear. Mostly I try to correct them in a kind way, but it is this that is very difficult as a) they don't really listen to me as I am not harsh and frightening and b) if uNPDw witness these corrections she starts shouting at me for being such a weak parent and that I should shout at them and very often suggest I should show authority by using harsh punishments such as smacking/hitting them.

But I know the kids know I love them, although GC is not showing it when uNPDw is around as she wants her to think she is in her team....

[Prototypian]

I've found that remaining calm and not raising my voice but being very serious about things that are behavior choices and problems is much more effective than any voice raising.   But you do have to watch out that your spouse doesn't completely either undermine your efforts or add to the chaos my yelling herself.   

My goal is always to identify the behavior that is the problem, address it directly with the kid in terms of "that was a bad choice" and make sure they acknowledge that and then discuss what I and be extension they are going to do about it and follow through.   This all comes from live and logic.   Kicking a football in the living room is a mistake if the behavior is not allowed and it's a choice whether the kid was thinking or not.   While not a choice to steal or lie or cheat it was still something they did.   So the discussion is in a clam voice  "W, what did you just do with the football in the living room".  Then not to step away from that with a diversion or apology or anything else.   I directed a question and I expect them to tell me what happened calmly.   Then a repeat of the rule "what are the rules about football and where it can not be played'.   Then I make sure the acknowledgement is geared around the fact that the family rule is to not play that in the living room.

Then a consequence which could be as simple as "now that we have talked about this, if you forget again then I will have to do xyz' or if it's happened too many times, "I will need to take your football and phone now" and follow through.   You can pick.  I always tell my kids as a parent I'm a benevolent dictator and as such I am not dependent on committees, opinions or the behavior of any other benevolent dictators (other moms and dads) and they are stuck with me out an unfortunate birth lottery.   That always makes then annoyed and I kind of like it.   

My key in this is that mistakes, lapses in judgement, bad choices are rarely in the real world from employers to city offices to police officers to teachers, result in screaming and yelling.   They result in acknowledgement of the rules and appropriate consequences.   This doesn't mean that if one of my little morons is doing something that is unsafe or could cause injury to themselves or others that I don't lose it and in no way does it mean that if someone pulls a brain dead stunt like juggling their school laptop at the top of the stairs I won't lose my cool because I'm human and a parent.   But my goal is to deal with choices and consequences and acknowledgement.

On the dark side of this is a PD spouse who is not aligned.   Kids exploit gaps in parents better than CIA spies vs the Kremlin.   They know when you're not aligned and will use it.   I find that my spouse hates the benevolent dictatorship view and that unless every single solitary rule and consequence is predefined and worked out in advance there should be no crime or punishment and she lets me know directly in front of the kids.   That's been tough but in recent years I've learned to hold my ground and let her look like the bad guy while still taking away the phone or car keys.   It makes her look like a baby to the kids when she is "on their side" not from a "that's unfair" perspective but from a view that since we didn't specify that we could take away their keys for staying out past 11 pm on a school night then we really can't do that.  This is as though we have a court system and supreme court and arbitration rather than a view that parents are in charge and that's just how life is when youre a kid.

I can't say I'm right but I can say I think it's ok to discipline kids with non violent non abusive consequences for making bad choices and I think it's ok for parents to be arbitrary and swift with their selection of appropriate consequences when trying to maintain order, safety, respect and accountability in their home with their kids and spouses should not deliberately usurp that's.

[Boat Babe]

I've found that remaining calm and not raising my voice but being very serious about things that are behavior choices and problems is much more effective than any voice raising.   But you do have to watch out that your spouse doesn't completely either undermine your efforts or add to the chaos my yelling herself.   

My goal is always to identify the behavior that is the problem, address it directly with the kid in terms of "that was a bad choice" and make sure they acknowledge that and then discuss what I and be extension they are going to do about it and follow through.   This all comes from live and logic.   Kicking a football in the living room is a mistake if the behavior is not allowed and it's a choice whether the kid was thinking or not.   While not a choice to steal or lie or cheat it was still something they did.   So the discussion is in a clam voice  "W, what did you just do with the football in the living room".  Then not to step away from that with a diversion or apology or anything else.   I directed a question and I expect them to tell me what happened calmly.   Then a repeat of the rule "what are the rules about football and where it can not be played'.   Then I make sure the acknowledgement is geared around the fact that the family rule is to not play that in the living room.

Then a consequence which could be as simple as "now that we have talked about this, if you forget again then I will have to do xyz' or if it's happened too many times, "I will need to take your football and phone now" and follow through.   You can pick.  I always tell my kids as a parent I'm a benevolent dictator and as such I am not dependent on committees, opinions or the behavior of any other benevolent dictators (other moms and dads) and they are stuck with me out an unfortunate birth lottery.   That always makes then annoyed and I kind of like it.   

My key in this is that mistakes, lapses in judgement, bad choices are rarely in the real world from employers to city offices to police officers to teachers, result in screaming and yelling.   They result in acknowledgement of the rules and appropriate consequences.   This doesn't mean that if one of my little morons is doing something that is unsafe or could cause injury to themselves or others that I don't lose it and in no way does it mean that if someone pulls a brain dead stunt like juggling their school laptop at the top of the stairs I won't lose my cool because I'm human and a parent.   But my goal is to deal with choices and consequences and acknowledgement.

On the dark side of this is a PD spouse who is not aligned.   Kids exploit gaps in parents better than CIA spies vs the Kremlin.   They know when you're not aligned and will use it.   I find that my spouse hates the benevolent dictatorship view and that unless every single solitary rule and consequence is predefined and worked out in advance there should be no crime or punishment and she lets me know directly in front of the kids.   That's been tough but in recent years I've learned to hold my ground and let her look like the bad guy while still taking away the phone or car keys.   It makes her look like a baby to the kids when she is "on their side" not from a "that's unfair" perspective but from a view that since we didn't specify that we could take away their keys for staying out past 11 pm on a school night then we really can't do that.  This is as though we have a court system and supreme court and arbitration rather than a view that parents are in charge and that's just how life is when youre a kid.

I can't say I'm right but I can say I think it's ok to discipline kids with non violent non abusive consequences for making bad choices and I think it's ok for parents to be arbitrary and swift with their selection of appropriate consequences when trying to maintain order, safety, respect and accountability in their home with their kids and spouses should not deliberately usurp that's.

Great post. I especially liked your take on parenting.

[Poison Ivy]

I like Jsinjin's post, too.

[ploughthrough2021]

I am dealing with the same (unpdw) and I usually talk to the kids about what they did wrong when she is away or in a place where she cannot hear.  Usually it is sometime after it happens so I need to recall myself about it nut usually very good with that.

[Fortuna]

 

It's normal for them to see what they can get away with especially since you are the one that has to 'take their side' so they see that as a button they can push to get their way/get out of trouble. Maybe start by simply reiterating the rules and why you have them.

'No throwing or kicking balls indoors, it might break something. Do it again, lose the ball for x time.'
'No swearing, it's rude, '(and should only be used in certain situations which is what i use with my kids since i figure I'm not going to be able to keep them from swearing but i can make sure they know it's supposed to be rare and for emphasis. With my kids, that''s all it took and other than a couple of interesting conversations about when it is appropriate based on what was happening in the movie we were watching it was all good.)
'No hitting, hitting hurts and we don't hurt people.' Follow up with whatever consequence for hurting a sibling.

Depending on their ages you may want to have conversations about how their mom reacts to things and who they would want to deal with when their behavior needs correcting, and how there aren't sides, you just have the awesome responsibility of helping them become good people, and that includes letting them know when there are doing something unacceptable
It sounds like they get enough yelling from unpdw, do what you can to calm and collected and not let them get a rise out of you (which is what they are trying to do with the sides comment) Be thoughtful with your corrections and the conversations you have with them and any consequence. Hopefully that will make a difference. Parenting is hard when you have two non PD people at the wheel. You are in an incredibly difficult situation and I wish you and your children the best.

[escapingman]

The more I apply the toolbox the worse she gets. I have tried my best, but she takes everything out of context and smooth over everything she says and does. When I MC she kicks off cause she think I am ignoring her,  when I tell her to stop back chatting me to the kids she denies it, when I ask her to stop complaining she complains even more and accuse me for being sensitive. I could easy ignore it all if it wasn't for her turning the kids against me. She does this constant criticism, often quite sarcastic and with a tone in the voice I know it is criticism but the children doesn't as if you listen to just the words it isn't .

This morning for example, I ended up in my own room as I can't take it anymore - and I was accused for being sensitive and creating it all just to not have to spend the weekend with the family. First I was shouted out for sneezing to violent, both uNPDw and GC, then when I sneezed the second time they shout again and she tries to tell me how to sneeze as it is too loud. Then later on when I swallow some coffee wrong and cough, yes she shout's again and then tell GC that men don't have any manners and that I should not cough. After the second cough and another telling off I left the table, with her accusing me of being sensitive. How can I enjoy breakfast if constantly criticise? And she has manipulated GC so much that if I answer back to uNPDw I get a mouthful from her too with uNPDw smirking. Later on today the kids have got an invitation to play football in the park with some friends from their team, something I normally take them to. But no, GC went to uNPDw and asked if she could take them as she doesn't want to be taken by her d*ckhead dad. Not the first time GC tried to punish me and get in to the good books with her mum by putting me down or even rejecting her own hobby as GC thinks that would punish me more.

I was no also told off for working on uNPDw birthday a short while ago, as you all know a NPD's birthday is a holy day. I could easy say it is the worst day of the year after X-mas. My presents I gave her has also been thrown back at me, they were bought in the wrong shop, at the wrong time and apparently not good enough (despite her being thrilled when receiving them). This is a reminder of my first ever gift I bought her for our first X-mas as a couple, I had been abroad in my home country visiting family (who lives in a small town) and bought the gift on the airport on the way back. When she found out she went ballistic and kicked off how I dared buying something last minute in the airport. I should have seen this as a big big warning, but this was very early in and in the golden period.  Second X-mas we celebrated together, this also ended up in a massive telling off from her, I had not bought her EVERY item on the list she had given me (where I come from you buy surprise gifts and not what you are told to buy).

Anyway, as she has managed to manipulate on child against me and now is working on the other I think I better get my act together pretty quick. I have no chance with the kids as long as I live in the same house as her and her manipulations. It really hurts when she lies straight to them and they just believe it and then shouts at me for being the horrible one.

[Poison Ivy]

I hope you can leave and get your own place to live very soon, escapingman.

[ploughthrough2021]

Plan hard to get out soon.  Your situation is NOT good

[hhaw]

I really like the Love and Logic series.
Super helpful....logical consequences....positive discipline.....teaching children to do better.

Punishment is hitting, yelling, shaming, judging a child...... transferring our aggression instead of teaching kids how to resolve conflict in ways they won't get arrested for when someone steals a parking spot or breaks in line at the grocery store.  We can't hit other adults.  Why would we teach hitting, as a tool,  if our kids can't employ that tool throughout their lives?

Every contact we have with our children should be compassionate and respectful.  We're teaching them how to love and respect themselves and each other.  How to treat future mates, their children.....and the elderly, ahem....us when we're old.

If we want nice kids....
we should be nice to our kids.

[escapingman]

She has completely lost it this time, she again criticised me to the kids behind my back. They made a plan for the next day without including me in the discussion, we had earlier talked about walking the kids to school but they decided to drive. This is so trivial and a non issue, but when I asked if we were going to walk (unaware they had made other plans) I was shouted at by GC and called d*ckhead for not knowing the plan. This then escalated with GC shouting at me, using the exact words her uNPD mum uses when she tries to belittle me. I lost it and shouted back, in the heat of the moment I also told GC to be careful behaving like her mum as they will make her end up with no friends. Yes I know, I shouldn't have but I lost it. My problem is that I see a little child, who is putting her own needs to one side and only tries to please her mum. She thinks that shouting at me using the same words as her mum is the best way for her to gain the approval of her mum. This has really made me fully aware that I need out and that I need the kids out, at least 50%. GC is completely different when we are out without uNPDw, she becomes a child and is cheeky and fun. But at home, all she does is shout and finding problems with me or her sibling that she can report back to her mum.

I am now not speaking to uNPDw as I have left the relationship, I have told her before that this would happen if she didn't stop back chatting me to the kids. She is now walking around sulking and of course complaining about me, she thinks I am doing the silent treatment as that is something she engages in. I am currently planning for my exit and the next steps, but until then I am in the same house as her which really is like living in hell.

[hhaw]

em:

All parents understand losing it..... and we all do, truth be told.

I'm not telling you what to do, but I do want to point out the opportunity in this situation.....
you can show your children how to take responsibility for losing control/yelling, etc..... apologize, explain how you won't do it again and what you'll do instead. 

When my kids were small I'd apologize then ask them to give examples of how to better handle the situation.

Sad choices
Happy choices
Happier choices

Fewer blaming words.  More interactive teaching moments and that's honestly a HUGE lesson to teach your children, bc their mother never will. 

Most of all... be kind to yourself. Teach your children how to be kind to themselves. 

I can tell you..... your stbx w is likely just as unkind to herself as she is to you and the girls. 

What she's teaching needs to be balanced, somehow.  You're going to be the parent who models something better.

In the meantime, I hope you find a good trauma informed T to help you get yourself through this more calmly, bc you're IN survival/fight or flight/ reptilian brain mode and that's too too difficult, IME.

Breathe, EM.  Slowly.... in 4 seconds, hold 4 seconds, out 4 seconds.

10 times.

Check your body.

How are you feeling?  Where do you feel it?  Usually chest, back or throat area.  Put your hands on it.  Name the pressure or pain. Put a number to it..... 1-10. 

Breathe INTO that discomfort 10 times.... focusing on your breathing and the physical sensation.

Check it again.  Is it the better? Breathe into again 10x and keep checking till it's gone or stops getting better.

If it doesn't get better, find a place in your body that feels neutral or pleasant.  Breathe into it 10x.

Look around you.... notice colors and shapes...... sense the space above, beside and beneath you.  Sense all the space in the sky and through the universe......

check yourself.  You should feel better, bc you're moving yourself out of fight or flight.

You're taking back your hijacked biology, which you can't think your way out of, btw.

You're restoring your access to higher brain function, logic, reason, creativity and problem solving skills.

Right now your w has all the power.... she can yank you off center and send you spiraling without trying.

She'll do it through your divorce and you just might end up looking like the one with problems, bc she's baiting you into it.

STOP that cycle, bc you need yourself and so do your children right now. 

You're your biggest asset, so wrap your mind around breathing your way back to reason
and if you can't....
go push on a door jamb for a while..... just PUSH with everything you have, then think about your breathe and keep pushing....breathing and pushing and check yourself.

You don't have to live like this. You can change everything, including the rage and feeling powerless and all that goes with raising children with a PD.

It's not going to be over soon, so figuring out how to stay sane through it is important, IME.  I wish I'd have learned how during my divorce.

Good luck,

[ploughthrough2021]

Escapingman, I understand totally how you can 'lose it' sometimes.  I've been there myself.  Sometimes that's the only way to stop the nonsense.  Please find a quick way to get yourself out of the situation you are in...