Illegal activities?

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Justanotherlostgirl

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Illegal activities?
« on: August 29, 2021, 03:15:37 AM »
Sorry, I donít know where to post this and also sorry for posting so much! This forum has been really helpful for me, as well as the toolkit, but I still have so many questions about my updh, his behaviors and how normal they are as compared to others.

I donít know what his diagnosis would be. BPD doesnít fit at all, so I am left to ponder.

My question is, do any of your SOís engage in illegal behavior? I donít mean like stealing a thing or two, speeding or parking tickets. I donít mean they think rules and laws are dumb. I mean being affiliated with criminal organizations, not worrying about whether they will be caught/ their effect on others.

My SO doesnít engage in violent crime. The offenses are more related to gangs (such as arranging illegal gambling dens), drugs, or helping others procure gang members to beat up people, but that is quite rare. He doesnít hurt people himself.

I havenít known any people like this before, nor do I know if this is a common trait of these types of people. I do know that law breaking makes people like this statistically more dangerous. I am just wondering if other people have experienced this behavior and how you may class this person? I know that Iím obviously not safe with him and need to get out, but Iím just curious if the behavior is something others have experienced as I have read through a lot of questions and have not really seen this touched on.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2021, 03:48:36 AM by Justanotherlostgirl »

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hhaw

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2021, 12:47:17 PM »
Justanothergirl:

My dx'd psychopath with heavy N features was involved in crimianl activities,along with his family.  It was sort of a crime syndicate....mostly insurance fraud, theft and crushing people in the legal system playing dirty and employing unscrupulous dirty attorneys who gamed the system.

Do you feel your In Laws and extended in laws are involved in criminal activities, along with your husband?

Do you feel you're n danger, or could be in danger if you in any way escalated conflict with your H?

I was threatened, assaulted and terrorized by my ASPD stbx h with the help of my In Laws...... I'm not sure you're in the same situation. It sounds as though living with your In Laws has given you some peace and stability you didn't have before.

Are you asking what you can expect from your PD husband? Down the road.  IF you file for divorce?

The truth, in my Country, was the civil justice system didn't have the ability to hold my ASPD accountable and he was able to get away with anything, pretty much, bc he was good at lying, cheating and stealing.  My attorney pretty much told me if my ASPDh wanted me dead....I was going to be dead. I shouldn't appear upset about it, bc I looked "bitchy" and men don't like looking at bitchy women.  I think he was speaking specifically about himself and the Judge, in that case, but you get the picture. 

PDs are notorious for cheating, lying and stealing...... for being difficult in divorce court....... for employing self destructive behaviors in order to control a spouse who's trying to divorce them/leave them/out them, IME.  Sometimes they leverage their own children's safety in order to gain their spouse's compliance, IME.  I'd say it's more common than not, unfortunately.

You should think your situation through, in every direction...... with dangerous PDs it's better to be disgarded than it is to try to divorce them,IME.  It's better not to wound their egos deeply, IME.  It's better to appear very bland and boring and hope they get bored and go elsewhere for their supply, IME.

IF you want to divorce them....

It's better not to let them know you're leaving BEFORE you file/ get to a safe place, IME.  Make a good plan, surround yourself with strong supporters then STICK to the plan, no matter what..... distancing the PD from yourself as much as possible. 

With a young child, that's impossible to do perfectly, IME.  You'llhave to communicate with the PD, bc he's the father of your chlld.  All the gains you've made wiht your mental and physical health would likely go down the tubes when you file divorce, esp if his family wasn't strong enough to protect you or cared to protect you, IME. 

What are you asking, exactly and what do you feel your situation is  with your In Laws?

If you can keep your head down, strengthen yourself and teach your child boundaries, good coping strategies and what normal relationships are........ while avoiding war with a criminal who has people harmed routinely, bc that's who he is and what he does..... maybe you consider some version of that or none of that?  Safely raising your child is a priority, I assume. Your child won't be vulnerable forever. 

You have to judge your situation for yourself and trust your gut, IME. Sometimes it's not a great idea of provoke a PD's wrath IF they have a scorched earth policy. IME.

Sometimes releasing expectation for justice is the best choice,bc staying safe with a child is the priority, IME.

Sometimes there's more choice, IME.  Sometime there's less.





hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Justanotherlostgirl

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2021, 01:32:11 PM »
Justanothergirl:

My dx'd psychopath with heavy N features was involved in crimianl activities,along with his family.  It was sort of a crime syndicate....mostly insurance fraud, theft and crushing people in the legal system playing dirty and employing unscrupulous dirty attorneys who gamed the system.

Do you feel your In Laws and extended in laws are involved in criminal activities, along with your husband?

Do you feel you're n danger, or could be in danger if you in any way escalated conflict with your H?

I was threatened, assaulted and terrorized by my ASPD stbx h with the help of my In Laws...... I'm not sure you're in the same situation. It sounds as though living with your In Laws has given you some peace and stability you didn't have before.

Are you asking what you can expect from your PD husband? Down the road.  IF you file for divorce?

The truth, in my Country, was the civil justice system didn't have the ability to hold my ASPD accountable and he was able to get away with anything, pretty much, bc he was good at lying, cheating and stealing.  My attorney pretty much told me if my ASPDh wanted me dead....I was going to be dead. I shouldn't appear upset about it, bc I looked "bitchy" and men don't like looking at bitchy women.  I think he was speaking specifically about himself and the Judge, in that case, but you get the picture. 

PDs are notorious for cheating, lying and stealing...... for being difficult in divorce court....... for employing self destructive behaviors in order to control a spouse who's trying to divorce them/leave them/out them, IME.  Sometimes they leverage their own children's safety in order to gain their spouse's compliance, IME.  I'd say it's more common than not, unfortunately.

You should think your situation through, in every direction...... with dangerous PDs it's better to be disgarded than it is to try to divorce them,IME.  It's better not to wound their egos deeply, IME.  It's better to appear very bland and boring and hope they get bored and go elsewhere for their supply, IME.

IF you want to divorce them....

It's better not to let them know you're leaving BEFORE you file/ get to a safe place, IME.  Make a good plan, surround yourself with strong supporters then STICK to the plan, no matter what..... distancing the PD from yourself as much as possible. 

With a young child, that's impossible to do perfectly, IME.  You'llhave to communicate with the PD, bc he's the father of your chlld.  All the gains you've made wiht your mental and physical health would likely go down the tubes when you file divorce, esp if his family wasn't strong enough to protect you or cared to protect you, IME. 

What are you asking, exactly and what do you feel your situation is  with your In Laws?

If you can keep your head down, strengthen yourself and teach your child boundaries, good coping strategies and what normal relationships are........ while avoiding war with a criminal who has people harmed routinely, bc that's who he is and what he does..... maybe you consider some version of that or none of that?  Safely raising your child is a priority, I assume. Your child won't be vulnerable forever. 

You have to judge your situation for yourself and trust your gut, IME. Sometimes it's not a great idea of provoke a PD's wrath IF they have a scorched earth policy. IME.

Sometimes releasing expectation for justice is the best choice,bc staying safe with a child is the priority, IME.

Sometimes there's more choice, IME.  Sometime there's less.

Hi hhaw,

Thank you for your thorough reply! I think this should maybe be a question for common behaviors, but I got the feeling from reading the forum that this type of criminal behavior isnít that common.

Iím basically trying to ask if people in relationships with PDís find it common for them to be involved in illegal activities. Everyone I talk to tells me my husband is dangerous. I donít personally feel that he is dangerous because of the types of crimes he commits, I.e., not violent ones. At the same time he can have a very explosive temper. But I have never known him to be physically abusive. I am trying to find people who are in a situation similar to mine so I might be able to gauge the level of violence there may be/ issues I may have with him.

Iím starting to put plans into place and Iím not sure what those look like. Should I be in hiding because he is dangerous? I donít feel like he is dangerous. Should I just move out? I guess I should be making a plan A, B, and C.

Iím also wondering if these kind of behaviors are more narcissistic in nature, or if these behaviors are more psychopathic traits, or ASPD traits? As I understand it, narcissists are more grandiose and less involved in crime, where people with antisocial personality are more involved in criminal activity. Iím not to sure where psychopaths fall. It seems like, from what I have read, the reason for criminality matters (is the person doing it out of desperation, or because they donít care about rules/boundaries).

Half of my inlaws are great. Theyíre very helpful. The other half of the family have been in and out of jail for various things. Theyíre not involved in organized crime though.

I know that nobody can predict, or tell me how my updh is going to be down the road during a divorce. I feel like if I had a better idea if he is a narc vs. psychopath vs. ASPD I may be able to plan better, so Iím just trying to get a feel for what the experience has been for people in these types of relationships.

I am so sorry about your ex, that sounds like a truly awful situation. Are you out of the situation now?

Just to clarify, my main questions are:

1) Has anyone had a upd spouse/partner involved in organized crime that they divorced? How did it go? What type of crimes were they?

2) Do you think that they kind of traits are more narcissistic ASPD or psychopathic in nature based on your personal experience?

3) if you upd spouse/partner was not violent before a divorce/separation, and was similar (involved in crime), did they become violent? What would you have done differently to protect yourself if you could do it over?

« Last Edit: August 29, 2021, 02:00:03 PM by Justanotherlostgirl »

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hhaw

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2021, 08:49:06 PM »
I didn't think of my h as violent till he assaulted me.....from behind.  Choked me.  Thought he would kill me.

His criminal behavior was never out of desperation.

The choking incident was only the beginning.  Things got much worse and that's the thing .... it's difficult to know just how bad. 

I'm out of the relationship.

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Poison Ivy

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2021, 09:44:05 PM »
Something that I would be concerned about if married to a person who is involved in organized crime is that the person would be risking the family's finances. In turn, something that I would be concerned about if trying to divorce a person who is involved in organized crime is that the person would push back for fear that their illegal activities would be revealed in the financial disclosures or that I would reveal their illegal activities to a lawyer or judge.

It can be hard to predict what a person will do because of fear. However, engaging in violence is likely a possibility in situations such as this.

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Justanotherlostgirl

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2021, 10:24:57 PM »
Something that I would be concerned about if married to a person who is involved in organized crime is that the person would be risking the family's finances. In turn, something that I would be concerned about if trying to divorce a person who is involved in organized crime is that the person would push back for fear that their illegal activities would be revealed in the financial disclosures or that I would reveal their illegal activities to a lawyer or judge.

It can be hard to predict what a person will do because of fear. However, engaging in violence is likely a possibility in situations such as this.

Thank you for the comment. This is really something I had not thought of. My husbands business with them has failed. Iím not sure if he has other related endeavors (I am guessing yes), so that puts things into perspective.

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1footouttadefog

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2021, 09:53:05 PM »
Psychopaths and sociopaths are narcissists, but not LL narcissists are psycho or sociopaths.

As to the difference between then, It seems it boiled down in my mind that one is made and the other is born that way. Don't remember which is which.

I noticed you mentioned borderline, I will just toss out that some people see a cross over between the cluster B personality disorders.  Additionally there is an idea called Covert narcissist that will look alot like bpd.

OCPD can also look like bph


Overall what matters for you is if it's abusive or dangerous, not what the term for it is.

There is a 100traits list in the tool box area that you can look over. It was very helpful to me in evaluating the degree of abuse I was living with.

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blunk

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2021, 12:14:09 PM »
Everyone I talk to tells me my husband is dangerous.

You may want to check out the Mosaic Threat Assessment website as a way to predict your h's potential to become violent. It was suggested to me when I first came to OOTF. Although my bpdxh had never hit or otherwise physically harmed me, he still scored very high on the assessment, indicating that the potential was there.

https://www.mosaicmethod.com/

And regardless of any test, I cannot stress enough.....TRUST YOUR GUT. If you feel at any time that you are in danger, take appropriate steps to protect yourself and your child(ren). Our bodies are often aware of things that our minds may not be, those intense gut feelings are the body's way of communicating that danger to us.

I wish you all the best in getting out of a terrible situation.


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square

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2021, 02:01:38 PM »
Arranging goons to carry out a beating is violent criminal behavior.

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hhaw

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2021, 02:51:18 PM »
One thing my ASPD stbx h DID care about was my attorney arranging depositions for the ASPD's father and mother. They couldn't get out of them and that set the ASPD off in a way  I didn't see coming. There was violence and I'm not clear why that was the way it was..... but it was.

I believe it was bc all the PD lies would unravel quickly AND some of the family criminal activities were at risk for being outed.... insurance fraud, theft, etc. 

Please be careful.  Sometimes getting out with your life and children is more important than anything...... with hindsight, IME.

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

*

Justanotherlostgirl

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2021, 11:04:53 PM »
Psychopaths and sociopaths are narcissists, but not LL narcissists are psycho or sociopaths.

As to the difference between then, It seems it boiled down in my mind that one is made and the other is born that way. Don't remember which is which.

I noticed you mentioned borderline, I will just toss out that some people see a cross over between the cluster B personality disorders.  Additionally there is an idea called Covert narcissist that will look alot like bpd.

OCPD can also look like bph


Overall what matters for you is if it's abusive or dangerous, not what the term for it is.

There is a 100traits list in the tool box area that you can look over. It was very helpful to me in evaluating the degree of abuse I was living with.

The reason I donít really see BPD is because he doesnít have mood swings often. He basically has no emotions I have seen except anger. When confronted, he can get explosive and start screaming and slamming doors and things, but overall, he much prefers silent treatments, or stonewalling.

When I think of BPD personally, I think of people who are quite intense. He isnít intense emotionally, he isnít up and down. He has no emotions at all for the most part.

But yes, what Iím most concerned about are his rages, his illegal behavior, and how that will affect me when I try to divorce him. Heís never been physically abusive to me (animals yes), but I am just thinking it could cross that line.

Thanks for your insight :)

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Justanotherlostgirl

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2021, 11:06:58 PM »
Everyone I talk to tells me my husband is dangerous.

You may want to check out the Mosaic Threat Assessment website as a way to predict your h's potential to become violent. It was suggested to me when I first came to OOTF. Although my bpdxh had never hit or otherwise physically harmed me, he still scored very high on the assessment, indicating that the potential was there.

https://www.mosaicmethod.com/

And regardless of any test, I cannot stress enough.....TRUST YOUR GUT. If you feel at any time that you are in danger, take appropriate steps to protect yourself and your child(ren). Our bodies are often aware of things that our minds may not be, those intense gut feelings are the body's way of communicating that danger to us.

I wish you all the best in getting out of a terrible situation.

Thank you so much for this great tool! I used it and it seems there is a strong chance this could become violent. This is really helpful in me planning my course of escape, and how much Iím going to need to do, for example, find a place he doesnít know where I am, disconnect from him online, meet with our child in public locations with friends nearby and etc.

I really wish he was just a normal person and this could all be amicable, but I just have this gut feeling it isnít going to be. Thank you so much for replying with this!

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Justanotherlostgirl

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2021, 11:10:25 PM »
One thing my ASPD stbx h DID care about was my attorney arranging depositions for the ASPD's father and mother. They couldn't get out of them and that set the ASPD off in a way  I didn't see coming. There was violence and I'm not clear why that was the way it was..... but it was.

I believe it was bc all the PD lies would unravel quickly AND some of the family criminal activities were at risk for being outed.... insurance fraud, theft, etc. 

Please be careful.  Sometimes getting out with your life and children is more important than anything...... with hindsight, IME.

Right now, my husbands family are all aware of the situation, but based on what I know of him, that isnít a big deal, because he doesnít care about his family.

If word gets back to his friends that he is a bad person however, I think that might escalate things. He doesnít like to publicly be seen as a bad guy, he wants everyone to think he is perfect. Some of his friends do know, but yes, I think when it comes time for him to be held accountable, that is when itís going to really kick off. I think Iíd rather make an exit plan that is overly cautious. That way I can try to avoid his escalation as much as possible. Thank you, and sorry to hear about your situation, that must have been awful

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Justanotherlostgirl

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2021, 11:17:27 PM »
Arranging goons to carry out a beating is violent criminal behavior.

I guess what I mean is he himself has not hurt anyone. It is still violent though, I agree.

When youíre in a situation like this for a long time, things that would shock other people almost become normal and so my perception of reality, I find, is really distorted. Itís almost like in my own mind, Iíve pushed the boundary of what is violent over further than it ought to be. I suppose that is exactly why I am asking these questions - because I am having a hard time myself figuring out just where to draw the line between a violent behavior and a non violent one.

I believe he can be a violent man. Iíve seen him kick animals across a room, punch things, slam doors and physically intimidate people. He came at me with a taser once saying he was ďjust jokingĒ. Sometimes, I guess I just need other peopleís opinions, that arenít linked to the situation so I can say ďyes, other people see this too and I am not just being dramatic.Ē

Thank you for that ❤️

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hhaw

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2021, 05:02:26 AM »
I didn't think my STBX h would harm me.....I didn't think of him as violent either, even though I, like you, knew better.

Harming animals....ordering others to harm people.  It's not a huge leap for him to escalate in order to gain your compliance, should you wound his ego or try to leave, ime.

Do be proactive.  And very careful.

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Justanotherlostgirl

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2021, 08:32:57 AM »
I didn't think my STBX h would harm me.....I didn't think of him as violent either, even though I, like you, knew better.

Harming animals....ordering others to harm people.  It's not a huge leap for him to escalate in order to gain your compliance, should you wound his ego or try to leave, ime.

Do be proactive.  And very careful.

Thank you for your advice hhaw. I know youíve been in a similar situation, so Iím listening closely. It seems like my husband is going to sign a consent form for me and my son to travel back to my own country tomorrow. Heís stopped spiraling a bit and now is the best time to act on this. Once I get back, Iíll take the steps necessary. Separating myself from him is the first thing, but the way I have planned it is to not make him angry in any way, to not acknowledge the existence of his girlfriend, and to pretend as if he will be coming back with me to my home country. Itís the BEST option for me right now. If tomorrow he refuses to sign, then I know the next steps.

I will certainly be on the alert. I have 2 months to go until my 2nd scheduled covid vaccine and I do hope that things will remain good until then, but these types of people are unpredictable. Fingers crossed I can get this done.

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hhaw

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Re: Illegal activities?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2021, 09:22:09 PM »
Ya, pretending he goes with you to your Country and pretending you don't know about the girl friednd, maybe many girl friends, is better than declaing war, IME.

The girls friend means nothing, IME. It's staying safe and keeping your child's life as stable as you can that will be the problem to work on, IME.

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt