Sometimes I can't tell if it's me or him

[11JB68]

In the car this afternoon with Updh and ds23. I don't know how to give a sense of the conversation without word for word... Updh asked an open ended question. Seemed to me that he actually wanted to have a conversation about this topic that should not have been triggering at all. I engaged. (Yes folks, I think that is where I went wrong). It's become so sad to me that the only way for me to maintain any peace is to mc and go along with whatever he wants. We had some back and forth on the topic but to me all of his responses seemed snippy and negative. I started to wonder why he was so cranky after spending all morning on his hobby while I was doing chores... Earlier in the day I asked if we could stop at x store on our way to updfil. Updh said yes. So we got close and then he asked where are we going, why, could we go after etc. Well I got defensive and annoyed. I don't ask for much, I asked well in advance etc. I was concerned that it wouldn't get done, that if we waited till after it would be closed. He turned to me and angrily said just answer the question jeez!  I quickly googled and said it's fine to do after they close at 7. Then he proceeded to go there first anyway. I hurried to do my errand since his concern was being late to dad's... But then he had me stay outside the car with him while he asked me why I was contradicting everything he said during the whole car trip.
It turned into a real argument. Then at fil I started to comment on something and stopped, afraid it would sound argumentative... He says, you are allowed to talk! Then there was a weird thing where fil wanted to demonstrate his blood pressure machine, he did Updh, then DS, then himself. Then Updh said to me your turn and I said no thanks. He says what? I say no thank you. Him: why? Me: I just don't want to. Him: the look.... Come on. So I did. I felt coerced.
Tonight more arguing about why was I being so difficult? What was the REASON?
I honestly do not believe I did anything. But copped to it, apologized etc
The lesson is I need to just mc and not engage. What kind of relationship is that??

[square]

I had a very similar day 2 days ago.

Ughhhh.

[notrightinthehead]

I am so sorry 11JB. You are trying so hard to have a normal relationship with your h and he undermines all your efforts.

[11JB68]

I should add, when we were arguing in the parking lot he did start to list a bunch of things he is stressed about etc. Which in my mind confirmed for me that what was happening is what often happens - he was projecting his stress etc onto me and was reacting emotionally to neutral statements from me as if I were trying to be difficult. However he denied that was the case and continued to blame me.
Later last night also - the same issue came up and he listed a LOT of stuff that he is STRESSED about. At which point I said that really sounds like a lot, I'm very sorry you are so stressed about so many things and that I was being difficult earlier and added to that.
Then this am as I'm leaving for work he says Sorry. Me: for what. Him: for being grumpy.  So - again.....this makes me nuts, he projects all of this blame onto me and INSISTS that I'VE done something WRONG to him that I need to apologize for AND promise that it will NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN - but in the end I do believe it comes back to HIS mood....HE was in a bad mood. HE took everything I said the wrong way. How can I sit there for hours and accept blame and then have him later say 'sorry I was grumpy'??

[square]

THAT'S WHAT MINE DOES.

And his definition of grumpy is way different from mine. My dad was grumpy sometimes. A scowly look on his face, mainly. The effect on me was either nothing at all, mild irritation, or amusement. My grumpy dad ruined no-one's day. Tears were never shed. Hearts never ripped open.

H thinks he is GRUMPY? I'd hate to think what a full on meltdown looks like to him.

And yeah, somehow his stress gives him full license for any behavior. And restricts me to only the most placid, cheerful, helpful, mindreading behavior.

But if I'm stressed, does he scurry around to serve my every whim, take every verbal blow on the chin? No? Oh, if I'm stressed I have to hide it or he'll melt into a full rage? Huh, that seems somehow unfair maybe?

Sorry for hijack.

[11JB68]

Square - that is totally NOT a hijack.
Sounds like you can relate
And, yes it only works one way. And yes, I'm supposed to read his mind.
In his own words the problem was that he was not getting the response from me that he wanted.
This is why he does not do well in group social situations ,nor at jobs where he is an employee. If the world or the  people in it disagree with him or do not follow his arbitrary rules etc then he is displeased.

[1footouttadefog]

My pdh has an A#1Mammas Boy.  He would do this crap before our visits with her or other people on his side of the family.

I realize looking back now that he was trying to pick a fight with me and get me upset as a way to dispense with his own misery.

It's almost like a toddler who things they can pass feelings to the next person by acting out and getting a rose out of them. 

[11JB68]

One foot, projection to the nth degree

[Jack Kent]

My first thought was "Get out of the relationship now". Second thought was, you seemed to took a stand more than usual and it would have worked if you stayd resolute but I know that this is hard when your in over your head.
Arguing with narcistic people is useless cause they never change and get sadistic pleasure out of it. They are in conflict with themselves all the time so clonflict is what they do. They are always in "PUSH AND PULL" in there head so that is how they treat you. Fighting them only hurts you! When you dance with the devil, the devil you don't change the devil, devil changes you.

When he said why you don't put the blood pressure machine on you say "I dont' want to" and that's all. When he pressures you say "Didn't you listen to me", I said "I dont want to". When he pressure you more say "Maybe next time" just brush off the charade.

I have worked with 3 narcistic people one time and I know how it makes your head spin.

Wish you all the best
Jack

[SonofThunder]

11JB68,

It's him.  Do you have female friends you hang out with or even with ds23 one-on-one?   If so, does this type of episode occur?  Likely not. If it was you, it would also occur with others.  In your story I read classic baiting-to-JADE, in the open ended question, in the questioning on where you are going, in the public questioning of the blood pressure machine and a lastly in the shallow apology.   

You wrote "It's become so sad to me that the only way for me to maintain any peace is to mc and go along with whatever he wants."   MC can be a lonely 'roommate' existence for sure, but is the norm for many of us here.  MC though, does not mean "...go along with whatever he wants".  MC is a chosen protective boundary.  So is "I'm driving separately to updfil's" or "I'm not going to updfil's, and will be running errands while you visit your father."   

SoT

[11JB68]

Jack thanks
I've been teetering on the brink of getting out for years. As everyone here knows this can be a difficult thing to decide.
Updh seems to be primarily OCPD with some n traits and even some bpd traits.
With him it's mostly about control over me and everyone around him, especially me and Ds
I know from experience if I had pushed the blood pressure thing, in front of fil and Ds he would have been angry at ME for"causing a scene" (even though he started it).

[11JB68]

SOT thank you.
You're right, it doesn't happen with others.
I get what you're saying about boundaries etc. Very hard for me anyway and also I truly believe it I started doing things like you describe that Updh would escalate and the marriage would come to an end.
May be where it's headed anyway...

[SonofThunder]

SOT thank you.
You're right, it doesn't happen with others.
I get what you're saying about boundaries etc. Very hard for me anyway and also I truly believe it I started doing things like you describe that Updh would escalate and the marriage would come to an end.
May be where it's headed anyway...

11JB68,

You wrote "I truly believe if I started doing things like you describe that Updh would escalate and the marriage would come to an end."

That reads as if you believe you have a marriage based solely on 11JB68's (unquestionable) servitude and attitude toward your uPDh.  That does not sound like a 'marriage' but rather a maidservant.  Your original story in this post accentuates the 'unquestionable' because there-lies the conflict;  "...only way for me to maintain any peace is to mc and go along with whatever he wants."

My uPDw, would prefer I be her manservant, but I have departed my caretaking role, and we now have a fairly-shallow roommate existence, yet our long 30 year legal marriage provides a deeper background; so maybe better described similar to living with an emotionally touchy brother or sister, in which there is a history of relationship and experience. 

Yes, boundaries are certainly difficult, and I am a strong supporter of boundaries.  But I also understand that depending on the situation, boundary enforcement may be especially difficult on ourselves and so therefore some flexibility, creativity and forethought is needed.  In the situation you described, if you did not accompany him to uPDfil's (every time) and have two vehicles, you are then free (on the times you don't go) to do whatever errands you desire.  You may truly be met with verbal hostility, silent treatment and other manipulations on the times you do not go, but the toolbox provides protective boundaries for them as well.

I state 'every time', because I find that the steady stream of slow-erosion is a much better approach to change for ourselves and teaching/conditioning of others, than the abrupt alterations of flood waters.  After a period of these times when you do not accompany, uPDh may tire of the repetitive, useless and short-lived (11JB68's no-JADE + MC) attempts at arguing with you, and understand that he is going alone at least half the time. 

But again, its him, not you.  I am also a strong supporter of relinquishing the maidservant/manservant roles and if the relationship ends, that's just further proof that it was not a 'marriage' in the first place.

SoT

[11JB68]

SOT - I often do feel like a maidservant (alternately: janitor, landscaper/gardener, cook, nurse-maid, home health-care provider, etc)
I forget if your w is  uBPD or some other uPD (or possibly diagnosed).
I believe my h is primarily uOCPD. He is very controlling. He gets very angry. He has never physically hurt or threatened me, but in my mind the danger is there and possibly has not happened only because I have not stood up to him that much.
When you started doing some of the things you do with your w - did you have a conversation with her first in which you said something like "I will no longer live like this....therefore going forward I am going to respond differently" or did you just start doing it?
Up to this point, at times if I make a statement that I am going to do X (something very innocuous) he is likely to say "No." (In my mind I'm thinking "I wasn't asking permission, I was giving you the courtesy of letting  you know...")

[square]

If they respected boundaries, we wiuldn't be here.

Just implement them, without explaining.

With my H, if I tell him, it's like declaring war. He'll be angry, tell me how I'm just punishing him for no reason, can never let anything go, blah blah. It'll never be about the unreasonableness of the demands I'm no longer acquiescing to, but about how I have a campaign to ruin his life, and how I am the most evil woman who ever lived.

Or I just implement. He is likely to object but now the conversation is more likely about what I am or am not doing and not so much my sinister motives. I can shrug this off more easily.

[SonofThunder]

11JB68, 

My wife is uBPD/NPD.  I fully agree with Square; i just calmly started doing, never announcing or defining.  The toolbox is my 'battle plans'.  I don't dare provide my 'battle plans' to the person who does me harm.  Proper boundaries to protect myself, MC, no-Jade, 51% rule to keep me healthy and 50% rule for my proper balance, since i have full right to walk, but have not. 

Again i recommend a steadily increasing erosion vs flood on protective boundaries to ease your husband into the new 11JB68 (which he cant alter).  Are you able to name one negatively-repetitive situation you would like to change?   How about starting with just one?  Something such as uPDfil visits you mentioned.  Do you desire for you (not your husband, not ds23, as thats ds23's job to protect himself) to see uPDfil less often as time moves forward?   *If yes, theres a secondary benefit there for you, because you can do something you enjoy/desire during the time your husband is visiting his father and savor the peace during the victory! 

If yes, how about you go every other time to begin.  It will require mental, strong, advanced planning on certain possible pre-planned scenarios before, during and after on your part, but i bet, with all your experience, you could accurately script how it would go, and therefore have a preplanned toolbox response (actions & reactions) ready and mentally practiced.  Will it be difficult?  You bet!  Can you do it? For sure!  Will you be better for it?  Absolutely!  Will it get steadily easier on you to complete each time you dont go?  Surely!

If not the uPDfil visit, name something else you would like to change and describe the script/scenario. 

SoT

[lavalove]

11JB68 it is absolutely maddening.  Yuck. Your experience is very similar to every interaction I have with my parents and sibling.  We don't interact much.  The fact that you are here and questioning it shows that it is not you.