When they don't see you as a separate person

[p123]

Sure I read somewhere that the narc doesnt seen you as a separate person with they're own opinions...

Had a bizarre conversation with Dad recently. I do contract work and its ending soon so need to find something else. So hes off "so what activities does x (my youngest) do?" She does a few things like ballet, gymnastics, swimming. All of which I'm GLAD to pay for,

So Dads off "thats way too much, that all costs money!!!!!" (You can see what sort of childhood I had!)

"So you're cancelling all of this then until got get a new job?" "No Dad not at all".

Week later, "have you cancelled it all?" "no". Then he gets REALLY nasty and raises his voice and tells me to cancel them all straight away.
Eh? Im 53 years old.

We're not talking now because I told him "whoa none of your business". Its great!

[Stillirise]

I'm so sorry you had to deal with that from your dad.  It's sad that the PD person's rigid thinking can ruin so many relationships.

I'm not sure what causes them to act this way, but I can say, my uPDxh has a similar mindset.  For him, he seems so self-righteous about his own thoughts and opinions, that he becomes very angry and upset when someone else thinks differently. He didn't just act that way toward me or the kids.  He can get worked up about and sometimes, directly toward, virtually anyone who's choices he doesn't agree with.  Even if they have no effect on him whatsoever.  I have never really understood it. I'm now trying to find a kind, loving way to help my children deal with what I'm sure will be a long-term issue, as they grow, and start making more and more of their own decisions.  I'm glad I have this place for insight!

Best wishes to you!

[square]

"Dad, DD's ballet has caused me to go bankrupt. I've had to surrender the car and I won't be able to fetch you microwave meals anymore. This is also my last phone call before they cancel service and knock down my door to relinquish my phone. Tough break, Dad."

[BeautifulCrazy]

Omygosh square! I can hardly breathe!! Too funny!!

[Poison Ivy]

My late father-in-law behaved similarly in interactions with and about his wife and his oldest son (my ex-husband). When my then-husband was unemployed (which certainly was stressful for me, too), FIL made comments about expenses for our children (mainly regarding where they went to college and the fact they did study-abroad programs). The person FIL really didn't see as separate was his wife. Unfortunately, my ex and his siblings struggled to see their mom as a separate person from their dad, too. She developed Alzheimer's disease, and when I'd ask my ex things such as "what are your mom's favorite foods?" he didn't know. Everybody knew what their dad's favorite things were.

[Sidney37]

Oh square!  After all P123's dad has put him through over those grocery store trips.  I'm laughing loudly in my kitchen right now.  I hope p123 is laughing with us as well.  Sometimes it's all we can do to cope!  And good for you p123 for telling him it's none of his business.  You've come a long way!  Congrats!

[Justanotherlostgirl]

I see so many examples of this in my husband.

If I made plans I would tell him, then he would make his own plans and insist I cancel mine because I have to go with him!

He refuses to celebrate my birthday because when was a kid nobody celebrated his so obviously nobody should celebrate mine.

If we order food, he eats almost all of mine before he even starts eating his. Who cares if I'm hungry?

It's all about their needs first. You being an extension of them, your needs come after theirs. It's so incredibly frustrating when you realize they just view you as this piece of them - one it seems they don't even like all that much.

I'm so sorry you deal with that.

[Cat of the Canals]

If I have the audacity to disagree with PDmom about something, she says, "But don't you think..." and then restates her opinion as if reminding me what "we" really think. She will also decide on her own what I think/want about XYZ, without discussing it with me. Again, if she believes it/wants it/values it, then I certainly do, too, because in her mind, I am merely an extension of her. Or perhaps more accurately a possession of hers.

PDmil had a habit of showing up unannounced at our home (we have since moved a great distance away). If she came and we weren't home, she would text my husband demanding to know where he was, seemingly baffled that we weren't sitting around waiting for her arrival (again, with no idea she was coming). I couldn't figure out how an adult couldn't put it together - we have our own lives. We go out for food, have dentist appointments, make trips to the grocery store, LIKE EVERY OTHER ADULT. Why would she be surprised that we aren't home? My husband finally said, "In her mind, we don't have our own lives." In her mind, we sit in our house like toys in a box until she decides she wants to play with us. When we aren't there, she doesn't think, "Of course, they probably had errands to run!" She thinks, "Where are my TOYS?!?!" We are not separate people to her. We only exist for her entertainment.

So yeah, this is all familiar. And I just want to say: Bravo on telling him it's none of his business! Because it so isn't! 

[Poison Ivy]

Great description, Cat of the Canals!

[1footouttadefog]

Yes we are objects and don't get empathy.

I am hoping that the separation in our new living arrangement will be a bit of an out of sight out of mind sort of thing.  Maybe the reduced ability to live vicariously through us will allow him to form his own habits and ways to occupy himself.

He can very easily become obsessed with exercise and charting the stats of how many steps and how many calories burned.   Hoping he has one more round of this in him

[p123]

"Dad, DD's ballet has caused me to go bankrupt. I've had to surrender the car and I won't be able to fetch you microwave meals anymore. This is also my last phone call before they cancel service and knock down my door to relinquish my phone. Tough break, Dad."

Ha ha you might not be far wrong there to be honest lol.

[p123]

Oh square!  After all P123's dad has put him through over those grocery store trips.  I'm laughing loudly in my kitchen right now.  I hope p123 is laughing with us as well.  Sometimes it's all we can do to cope!  And good for you p123 for telling him it's none of his business.  You've come a long way!  Congrats!

Alas hes talking to me again and I've got a grocery trip tonight. Wife is in work so I have to wait for her to get home. So I'll be doing the two round trip at 9pm tonight :-(

I still remember the time, when we told him wife was pregnant last time (we were both well into our 40s) the way he started shouting saying "babies cost money!" "what are you two playing at?". And he wonders my wife wont speak to him....

[p123]

If I have the audacity to disagree with PDmom about something, she says, "But don't you think..." and then restates her opinion as if reminding me what "we" really think. She will also decide on her own what I think/want about XYZ, without discussing it with me. Again, if she believes it/wants it/values it, then I certainly do, too, because in her mind, I am merely an extension of her. Or perhaps more accurately a possession of hers.

PDmil had a habit of showing up unannounced at our home (we have since moved a great distance away). If she came and we weren't home, she would text my husband demanding to know where he was, seemingly baffled that we weren't sitting around waiting for her arrival (again, with no idea she was coming). I couldn't figure out how an adult couldn't put it together - we have our own lives. We go out for food, have dentist appointments, make trips to the grocery store, LIKE EVERY OTHER ADULT. Why would she be surprised that we aren't home? My husband finally said, "In her mind, we don't have our own lives." In her mind, we sit in our house like toys in a box until she decides she wants to play with us. When we aren't there, she doesn't think, "Of course, they probably had errands to run!" She thinks, "Where are my TOYS?!?!" We are not separate people to her. We only exist for her entertainment.

So yeah, this is all familiar. And I just want to say: Bravo on telling him it's none of his business! Because it so isn't! 

I had similar with Dad. He always asks me where I've been. You can tell any time spend with my family is not allowed.
I deleted my brother off facebook as well. FM he is. If I put photos on facebook of me out with my kids he'd put a comment like "how about you take dad out sometime as well?"

Worse mistake was telling Dad I had spare days off from work (accrued from doing on call/standby). He automatically assumed that this meant the days were for him to use for me to take the day off to take him to hospital appointments etc. (umm no they're for me to take a day off for what I want to do).

I wouldnt have minded if he was stuck to get to the hospital but it was usually because he didnt want to take the free patient transport (it took an hour to get there, as opposed to about 20 mins if I drove him  despite the fact its 30 mins from my house to this so 60 mins round trip - yeh work that one out). Or he refused to pay for taxi (which cost about £10 ($14-$15) - bearing in mind hes got about £40K in the bank. So I waste the entire day to save you £20 that you dont need anyway - ummm nope....

[moglow]

I was raised/live in the South, and we were taught to not talk back, not be rude, honor mom/dad above all else etc. Mother banked on us not being allowed to have our own opinions or minds of our own as children, and was LIVID when we dared speak up or do our own thing as adults. She'd just pound away at it [whatever issue of the moment] and persist that we're basically stupid, that she knows all etc. And y'all. Her life has been a trainwreck, she's one of the most negative abusive unhappy people I've ever known, she's not improved in any way with time, she learned nothing in all that. And NOW she's surprised none of us want anything to do with her.

Anyhoo, that's just to preface a southernism I became fond of: "Well ..." As in: she launches into a tirade of whatever random bs has pissed her off this time. Your response? "Well ..." [just that!] and change the subject. Over and over ad nauseum. I learned to give her nothing to feed on. "Well" can mean anything she wants it to, I refused to elaborate, ask questions or engage beyond that.

P123, find gray rock, embrace gray rock, BE gray rock. He can have whatever opinion or beef he has, that doesn't make it yours. You don't have to answer or respond even when he demands input into things that are frankly none of his damn business. Even if they ARE, you don't have to take it in or let it become a part of your day. If he's like mother he just wants a conflict, ANY conflict. So I stopped feeding it ... and I also found out that the bald truth is, she's not interested in me anyway. I was just a means to an end and someone to flail away at when it/the voices in her head got too much for her - so I ended that conduit for her.

[1footouttadefog]

I have a dear friend who I will lose soon who uses similar techniques to avoid stepping in it.

If someone get into politics or expresses an opinion that is harsh or that he disagrees with he will answer with something lime

So, you think so huh.

Or  You think so do you?

No negativity or sarcasm, just this quiet response.  It's so non commital and then the convi gets moved along.

I will miss this guy. 

[losingmyself]

I don't disagree with H anymore, because the response I get is "Oh, I said it, so it has to be wrong"
Also, asking him his opinion about how to go about doing something means I HAVE to do it that way, or he gets pissy. "Why do you ask me if you're not going to do it that way"
I try to explain the difference between asking for instructions and asking an opinion differs, but he's not having any of that. So, I don't ask anymore, unless I am prepared to do it exactly per his "opinion"
I must always agree with him, because I am not a separate person

[1footouttadefog]

That sounds tough to live with.

Mine used to accuse me of being disloyal if I disagreed about something he had done or how he had acted.

[p123]

Was thinking the other day - I used to take him away for the weekend to watch cricket. It got too much in the end because of his behaviour.

From the time he got in the car to the time he got home, he decided he needed to look after me for the weekend. He'd watch what I ate, everything, basically the entire weekend I'd be monitored for everything I did. He even used to tell me off for phoning my wife ("theres no need she can manage not to speak to you for a few days")

No matter what I did he just would not back off. It got too much in the end. It wasn't a nice weekend away it was a weekend of hassle from Dad.
Even the car drive there turned into a general diagnosis of my life choices "so why did you have another kid?" "so why don't you get a proper job?"

[square]

The fact that he thinks you need to call him as often as he wants and your own wife does not need to speak with you is mind. blowing.

[Poison Ivy]

My former father-in-law said similar things to my ex-spouse. FIL also disrespected our children (his grandchildren).