Seeking suggestions for a "CTJ Meeting" with uOCPDh

[11JB68]

I'm feeling like it's time for me to have a sit-down (Come To Jesus) meeting with uOCPDh
Recent health crises and his inability/unwilligness to deal with them in a reasonable manner, as well as ongoing controlling behavior and arbitrary expectations etc  - as well as - we have gotten through DS's Grad party, long-delayed commencement etc. so I have some breathing room where I feel like if things hit a crisis then I won't be impacting DS's well-deserved celebrations
A co-worker this am asked me basically what my end game would be with this. That he won't change and so MY choices are the same - stay with him as is, or leave. For a long time I felt that I was waiting for the right crisis to force me to leave and that I would JUST WALK OUT, saying nothing. BUT - whether it is FOG (Guilt, Obligation mostly) about JUST LEAVING a man who is doing worse and worse medically/physically and who is now showing real signs of depression - or whether it is my own needs - IDK I just sort of feel like I owe it to (him? myself?) to AT LEAST sit down and have a conversation with him.
What I'd like to say is - uOCPDh, I think you need help and I'd like to see you get some help and maybe try to work on our marriage. (perhaps with an 'ultimatum' which I hate, and which likely is a bad idea- that if he doesn't do 'X' that we will need split up.)
HOWEVER, esp in light of his responses to medical stuff - I feel he would show more of the same - resistance to seeking help; defiance towards those professionals providing help; refusal to follow through etc
If I sit down and talk with him - even just to let him know WHY I am feeling how I'm feeling....I fear it will turn into a DARVO opportunity for him. I cannot figure out a way to let him know what is wrong without giving him examples of situations where I have felt controlled, 'abused', etc. BUT when I do that he says: I'm making him feel like SH*T; I'm being a bully to him; I 'keep tabs' of all the stuff he's done and 'throw it all at him at once'; etc etc etc
I have 11/11 off from work (a Thurs) and have tentatively put in for 11/12 - thinking that I will tell him to set aside those days for us to talk.
But I'm so afraid to get into it....yet I'm terrified NOT to and to stare down another 30-40 years of living the way I am but with the added stress of his declining health....
Any ideas?

[1footouttadefog]

I would have the talk, but be very tough and insist on not listing things or hashing over old stuff.

Be direct. Make it about you where you can honestly, something like this

I cannot live like this any longer.  Your health issues are not being addressed in an effective manner. our relationship is no longer healthy for me... It's not working.   I need for you to address these issues with professional help.  They are not within my skill set and ability to fix.

If you are unwilling to seek help I will need to leave.  I choose not to be a party to just letting yourself deteriorate without getting help. Doing so is a deal breaker for me.

When he breaks in with but you.....

I am talking about your x
You need to deal with x

[Poison Ivy]

"When I do that he says: I'm making him feel like SH*T; I'm being a bully to him; I 'keep tabs' of all the stuff he's done and 'throw it all at him at once'; etc etc etc" I got reactions like this from my then-husband. Eventually I realized it was unlikely he would react any differently but that I had the right to express myself on topics vital to the health of our relationship. Him having these reactions didn't mean I was being a bad person by expressing myself.

[11JB68]

Thx 1foot and ivy.
I was thinking and realize that right after his heart attack when he was thanking me for taking care of him/being a good wife, I said I'm not a good wife... I've been enabling you and that is not good or helpful.
The current health crisis.... The symptoms have been there for years, even now with a diagnosis he is choosing to treat it his own way which makes NO sense.

[11JB68]

Also the always looming issue is that he will sink into a depression and stop working....

[Poison Ivy]

I feel bad that my ex has struggled with depression his entire life, but "struggled with depression his entire life" says it all. I didn't cause it and I can't make it go away.

[blunk]

11JB68, I am so sorry you are dealing with all of this. I could have written almost this exact post about 10 years ago, it's actually a little scary the number of similarities.

My bpdxh also had a heart attack (and several cardiac incidents afterwards)...yet he would pick and choose which parts of the doctors recommendations to comply with. He would take certain medications, but refuse others. The doctor would recommend a certain diet and all of a sudden xh was a nutritionist, and the doctor was just wrong.

The pattern I saw was that after each of these health crises he would become depressed and stop working...either quitting or getting fired for missing too much time. He would spiral into...you deserve better, I'm useless, you should leave me. Soon after the depression would come the rage. Even though I stayed 5 days at his bedside in the hospital, leaving only to care for the dogs and shower, and cared for him at home while he was recovering...I didn't care and didn't do enough for him. Suddenly I was the useless one, and he should leave me.

At some point during one of these cycles he gave me an ultimatum that I thought was unfair. I snapped and called him out on it. I told him that he had no right to control me, and that I wasn't going to let it happen yet again. Somehow the conversation turned to things that he had done to hurt me over the years. This led to him relentlessly demanding that I make a list of those things. That may have been one of the worst mistakes of my life....granted I was still deep in the FOG and thought that if I could just get him to see, then he would be able to stop. And yes, in the moment, it felt good to purge all of those hurts.

But he didn't stop. In fact, it was just the opposite, he turned that list into a playbook. And, of course, accused me of throwing the past in his face, despite his loudly and repeatedly insisting that I create the list. The abuse got so much worse after that. I believe that you are right, having that conversation with your h would only lead to more darvo, more accusations of keeping tabs on his transgressions...and quite simply more FOG.

I know that it is hard to accept, but you are not responsible for his health...physical or mental. I certainly can't tell you what to do, but I will say that I can't see anything positive coming out of a CTJ conversation. But as I said earlier, it did feel good to get all of those things out, so maybe an unsent letter is an option for this conversation...? As far as concern for his health, I agree with 1foot's suggestions.

I know this is all so difficult, I wish you well on whichever path you choose.

[SonofThunder]

11JB68,

My past experiences are more in line with Blunk's. In my past IDD cycles (about 8 cycles over 20+ years before coming Out of the FOG), after reaching points of pure exhaustion, I have had a few of these ultimatum meetings. A few times over the decades (her transitioning in the IDD cycle from devalue to discard) ,my uPDw even gave me ultimatums, trying move my "pleasing her' high-jump bar higher and acting like she was going to leave if i didn't meet her increased desires/demands. 

I now personally consider, in my marriage to my uPDw, these types of communications to a PD, a form of proactive JADE.  As Blunk said about her husband, telling my wife what really bothered me, gave her a playlist of areas for attempted control and manipulation of me, to maximize my irritation and her need for PD drama-feed, which is her fuel. 

Also as Blunk said, it gave my wife my infraction list on her, and whenever she believed i was doing the slightest same thing I accused her of, she would rage and try to invalidate my entire prior communication, turning it into another one of my 'sensitive guy' over-reactions that drives her nuts. 

Also, with certain individual topics of my prior ultimatum conversations, where she knew i was right, (like her denying me of any intimacy for her control), she would only temporarily improve to 1. get an improvement trophy  2. use her willingness to improve (although #1) to hold her own demands of me (higher bar) to the fire.  3.  Keep herself from experiencing fear-of-abandonment by temporarily kicking the divorce can down the road farther. 

These types of conversations, in my marriage, were an integral part of the IDD cycle, which is why i cycled SO many times over decades.  Therefore I am where I am today;  stuck in (thank goodness) discard and I am in perpetual MC, No-JADE and a mindset of living my own personal daydreams (as a honorable married man) as best possible, while having a mindset of indifference, all while living with my female roommate of 30 years. 

I feel for your position.  I surely have enough past and present PD crap in which to justify my departure, but in my personal situation, which is complicated in many areas,  i know that my leaving will severely cut my feet out from under me and many others connected to me (im self employed).  In my situation, as a male, i am in a disadvantage in the court system, and none of my PD experiences with my wife are (yet) illegal/infraction in nature (something the courts would side with me) such as infidelity, physical abuse, fraud etc.

Not sure if where you live, the same is true, but i believe that females can be at an advantage in a departure situation, regarding current finances/asset split and future finances (alimony), if the situation is financially healthy to begin with.  I wish you the best in your decision regarding your potential meeting.  For me, in hindsight, the short term feel-good by getting crap off my chest was not worth the long-term PD emotional abuse i suffered afterward. 

SoT

[1footouttadefog]

Another approach is to sit him down and tell him that you are going to give him the dignity to make his own choices about his health.  Then inform him that as he is free so are you. Let him know you will be taking if you and you will find the friendship and healthy relationships you need for a good life as well as watching your own health etc

Tell him you will be cooking healthy meals for yourself and that if he wants to eat pooy he can make his own meals.  If he wants to etc etc etc


Set yourself free even while being there.

[Gettintired76]

I'm in the the same boat your in SoT and yes the females do seem to be at an advantage in court (especially if children are involved). My ex did all of those things you mentioned, it was like reading my own story back. As 11 stated she has struggled with depression, and more all her life. I didn't cause it, but yes I do get blamed for it. I understand from what she has told me a lot of stuff happened to her at this particular time of year, so she has flashbacks and whatnot, of which I'm honestly empathize with her. I feel just in some of the things she has said to me in the past couple of weeks the she honestly percieves me as the past abuser and I actually approached her about it the other night, to which stated that what I did to her was worse then what happened then, but when asked she could not or would say what I did that was so awful. She just kept saying she had tried to tell or that I already knew what I did and going back to things that happened years ago.

[11JB68]

SOT my understanding where I live is that the person who makes more is required to pay support to the one who makes less. I make more. I would likely need to pay support.
At this point, while that bothers me on principle, I'm not terribly concerned about it.
I'm more worried about the impact on his mental and physical health if I leave, and also to be honest my own feelings of being a terrible horrible person who would leave someone with these health problems and also psychological problems.

[square]

I hear ya. I really do.

You know better intellectually, though, right? That you cannot be responsible for another adult's choices about their health?

[notrightinthehead]

.... also to be honest my own feelings of being a terrible horrible person who would leave someone with these health problems and also psychological problems.

There you go. The G in FOG. You might want to look at that from a distance. I am not saying that you should leave. I suggest that you check with yourself if you have not done enough. If you really could do anything else. If it is not time that you respect that he wishes to live his life this way and behave exactly how he behaves. It might be that this is exactly what he wants and how he is. You might know better, your ideas might be healthier.  And his ideas differ. He might choose to be this way. Is there any way you could accept and respect that?

On the other side - you are bending yourself into a bretzel in order to follow his crazy rules. You focus most of your energy on him. Is there any way you could listen to yourself more as far as you are concerned? To take care of yourself. Make life good for yourself? Do what you want? Look after your own health? Mentally? Emotionally? Physically? No need to run yourself into the ground trying to take responsibility for another adult, who does not even appreciate that. How about you let him be who he wants to be? Instead of trying to change him,  you work on your anxiety and self respect? You start doing small things your way and face the backlash that will surely come?   

[SonofThunder]

I agree with notrightinthehead, the 'G' of FOG can be a huge obstacle in the road of our thinking. Regarding myself and my uPDw, there are times when i think that she would never emotionally survive on her own, because her emotional state is that of a young teenage girl (now that Ive raised a daughter to adulthood, i can clearly understand).  The G of FOG settles down heavy in my mind at the calmer times when shes not scheming manipulative/controlling or having an emotional teenage breakdown when life isn't fair.

One of the exercises that help me think clearer is to step outside myself in contemplation of the past and also turn unknowns to knowns, as best possible.  My objectives in clear thinking, for myself and others is not to promote any action (leave/stay), but to get the FOG out of the way, so a fair assessment (51% rule and 50% rule) can be made.   

So 11JB68, below are some knowns to consider, followed by a couple questions.
—————
Using my home country:  In the USA, as of 2019 (from the Pew Research Center):

Combined Male and Female: 
All Gender and Ages Combined: 31% are single

Among Men in the total USA singles group:
Age 30-49: 27% are single
Age 50-64: Also 27% are single
Age 65 and up: 21% are single

From a 2019 UN (World Population Prospects Report):  In the USA:

Out of the total gender-combined USA population in (all ages), males comprise approx 49% (163.7 million)

Out of that 49%, the male age breakdown in the USA is:
Age 25-44: approx 43 million therefore with 27% single, thats 11.6 million single men.
Age 45-64: approx 39 million therefore with 27% single, thats 10.5 million single men.
—————
So 11JB68,

1. I would assume, that out of that population in your husbands age group (assuming he falls in those ranges), many have similar physical and psych ailments and are surviving just fine as a single male in society.  In your mind, why do you believe your husband could not do well as a single male without you and is it possible, given the statistics, that you are underestimating his ability (in that stimulating situation) to improve his self care?

2.  Are you possibly, because of his PD traits and your possible caretaker traits, being used by him to keep himself from proper self care? 

3. If #2 is a possible yes, then could his health possibly improve by him being thrust into a single situation?

4. If #3 is a possible yes, then could becoming single, be the best (loving) thing you could do for your husbands long term health?   *Therefore then also the opposite is also true. 

5. Not sure how you define 'love', but is the only way you can 'love' this man is to be married to him?   If my uPDw and I ever get divorced, i believe i can still love her (desire and help facilitate what is 'best'), as two single adults, until she remarries.  If she refuses, thats her decision.  After her remarriage, its her marriage partners job.

SoT

[Poison Ivy]

I'm not proud of this, but the following has been true for me: "could becoming single, be the best (loving) thing you could do for your husbands long term health?" By this, I mean that my ex seems to be doing better not married than he was while we were married to each other, and he once said to me, "I can barely take care of myself."

[Gettintired76]

I too have dealt with that nasty G, but I can't anymore, she made her bed "repeatedly", now she must lie in it. Sorry to sound so cold, but its true. I am better off with her gone, and it seems she is doing just fine without me.

[Gettintired76]

Sorry again wasn't trying to hijack.

[11JB68]

NP Gettintired - not a hijack - we are all here to learn from each other!

[Gettintired76]

having reread some of the post, It does seem that at the being of our breakups (of which weve had many,this one the last)  her health would improve (slimming back down, cleaning herself up, seeking med help) but it was more like a mania, because she would eventually downslope, (lose way too much weight, in at least too break ups she started taking pills, alot of them, and started looking sooo strung out), and thats when she would cry to me for help and forgivness. But that was my ex, what Im getting at is yes I believe our staying with them at times can be harmful to them, but perhaps a professional should be tasked to moniter them and make sure thay stay on that track?