Need to set a boundary around Mom's negativity

[Sneezy]

My mom (covert NPD) has been pretty busy and thus not as needy for the past couple months, but yesterday she reverted to being miserable.  I went to her apartment to take her to church and it was full-on 100 percent misery from the minute I walked in the door.  She was upset that her senior complex is repainting the hallways, she lost a ring, the necklace she wanted to wear had a knot in it, her neighbors are all "lazy" and won't do anything fun with her, the food is terrible, her watch battery had died, she insisted that I set aside several hours to take her shopping (which I declined to agree to), and then to top it all off she started crying and loudly stated that "I have a shit life" and "I'm trapped."  So I told Mom that I had changed my mind about going to church and I left.

Later in the afternoon I called Mom and tried to explain that all her negativity is bad for me and my mental health.  I asked her to please say one good thing, just one thing that is good in her life, even if it's as simple as the sun is shining.  She couldn't do it.

Mom says I was in the wrong for leaving.  I think it's a perfectly acceptable boundary to leave a situation where I am being bombarded with negative statements.  Normally, I'd do my boundaries, rather than saying my boundaries.  But I think I may be at a point where I have to say this one.  But how to say it?  I'd like to explain to Mom - and have her understand - that when the constant negativity starts, I'm done.  If we are out, I'm taking her home.  If we're on the phone, I'm ending the call.  If I'm in her apartment, I'm leaving.  If she is at my house, I'm taking her home.  Is this reasonable?  Is it worth stating to her?  How do I say it?

[Poison Ivy]

I think it's reasonable to set this boundary. If you announce it to your mom, make sure you follow through and also "do" the boundary.

[Andeza]

Totally reasonable boundary. I debate telling her though. In the experiences of most people on the forum, if you state a boundary, the pwPD then purposefully pushes it every. single. time. You have to decide if this is your hill to die on, so to speak. Because if stated, you may have to take her home early every single time, leave early every single time, etc. Only you can decide if it's worth it to you.

In your shoes, I'd just "do" the boundary rather than speak it. But that's me. Because if you state it, you're going to get a circular argument with lot's of "WhyyyyyyYYyYYyYy?" "I don't UNNddderrrstannnd!" And so on.

[square]

I think doing instead of saying makes sense usually, but I'd say this one.

The reason is that when you turn around and take her home, ir walk out of her apartment without taking her to church or shopping, or whatever, realistically there's going to be a stated explanation for it. What's the alternative - just silently ignoring her yelping WHY DID YOU TURN AROUND when you were on the way somewhere? Well, of course you will have to do just that but I'd feel like I was a reasonable adult if I said "because I told you I'd take you home if you were going to do this" ONCE and THEN ignore all the howling.

But here's where the unstated boundary is.

If she continues to ruin every interaction, then you're not even going to bother to try.

If church gets aborted every week, you're not wasting your time going to pick her up in the first place.

[Boat Babe]

I hear you so hard my ears hurt Sneezy. The negativity is relentless and it really is like an onslaught. It's so, so disordered too.

Can you give yourself a "mum holiday" for a bit longer than usual, just to get your head round your new boundaries and how they will look in practice in the most difficult circumstances? And write strategies down to keep you on track.

Good luck.

[SunnyMeadow]

I'm learning from your actions Sneezy! I have a feeling something like this is going to come up with my uNPDmother and I too. I think your reaction and leaving is a good one. I hope I can be that brave when it happens with me.

Your mom would say you're wrong no matter what. Because SHE certainly isn't wrong with spewing all that negativity. I think it would be fine to tell her exactly what you wrote in your last paragraph. She won't like it, but it's fine and shows her you can't do this anymore.

I was on the phone with my mom yesterday and all she talked about is how scary the world is, how this and that is going on at the border, my children are doomed due to the vaccine, I'll never be a grandmother now. How she did all these wonderful things and no one does like she does.  And after all that I'm holding the phone way far away from my ear and thinking "I can't listen to this crap every single time I interact with her". It's a negativity contest for her, it's awful. So I wrapped up the call and went back to my calm, happy life.

I'd love to get all our NPD parents together and let them go on and on to each other and leave us alone!  I really think we have to put them on the back burner and protect ourselves from them because they aren't interested in the well being of their children.

[Cat of the Canals]

Totally a reasonable boundary. No one likes to be around miserable, incessant complainers.

As for how to set it, I would resist the urge to formally tell your mother, "From now on, if you start complaining, the visit is over." I don't think setting boundaries this way is particularly helpful when it comes to PDs. They will claim they don't remember you saying it, or that you weren't clear, etc. etc.

Instead, I would set the boundary when it happens and when you've decided she's crossed a line. So you're out at lunch, and mom starts up. You calmly state, "How about we focus on the positive? It's a lovely day for this outing, don't you think?" Mom probably won't take the hint. She starts whining about her drink not having enough ice. "Mom, I'm sure we can ask for more ice, but if you continue with this ongoing list of complaints, I'm going to take you home." After that, it's third strike, she's out.

It's common here to think of the PD as a toddler, and I think this is a perfect example. A toddler genuinely doesn't have the capacity to remember every single rule.
So you give them a reminder: "Please don't throw the ball in the house."
When it happens again, they get a warning: "If you throw the ball again, I'm taking it away."
And lastly the follow-through, in which the consequence is put into effect.

My guess is some days you have more tolerance and can tune her out, and other days it's just too much. This gives you the flexibility to decide on a case-by-case basis when she's gone too far instead of feeling like you *have to* enforce the rule every single time.

[Sneezy]

Instead, I would set the boundary when it happens and when you've decided she's crossed a line.
...
My guess is some days you have more tolerance and can tune her out, and other days it's just too much. This gives you the flexibility to decide on a case-by-case basis when she's gone too far instead of feeling like you *have to* enforce the rule every single time.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit and I agree that I can't state my boundary ahead of time with mom.  She simply won't remember or she will not realize what I mean.  It has to be when it happens.  And it's fair to state it then and be explicit about it.  Just as with toddlers, they deserve to know exactly what the boundary is and exactly when they've crossed it.

And there are certainly days where I have more tolerance than others.  Is that fair to mom?  Well, fair or not, it's how it is. 

I am part of a women's book study and once a month we meet to talk about a book that we are reading, usually something uplifting that challenges us to think about our beliefs and how we live.  Recently, we've been talking a lot about choosing to live with gratitude and joy and love.  And (at our ages) we are understand that it can be very overly-simplistic to tell someone that they just need to "wake up in the morning and choose joy."  After reading some of the stories in these forums, I can't imagine telling someone who has been abused that they just need to "choose joy."  That's just ridiculous and it trivializes some really important issues.  On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt my mom to think about the joy and blessings she has had and continues to have.  Sure, life in your 80's can be difficult, especially when you have physical pain and you can no longer drive and you start to forget things.  But there is still a lot of good in her life - she lives in a nice apartment with nice people nearby and there are plenty of activities and she gets three good meals a day.  I could go on and on.  Will mom be running a marathon next week or taking a two-month whirlwind tour of Europe?  Nope.  But she will be having a good lunch and then getting her nails done and then playing bingo.  And life could be a heck of a lot worse for her.  But she will never see it.

[moglow]

Sneezy, I battled this with mine as well. I got so sick of hearing the incessant negativity - she doubled down and added spite for good measure. Everything that came out of her mouth was negative and spiteful. When she laughed [which was rare] she was laughing at someone else's expense, their pain or failure etc. She always had to see herself as better-than, not one clue that in her efforts she just lowered herself further. For all that she's truly that self-involved, her rose coloured glasses painted a very different picture in her mind.

I did exactly as described for a long time - changed the subject or ended conversations when I had enough. Some days I was more tolerant than others, but it still did no one any favors. I remember her once saying "I need to vent!" after I cut off the spewing of ugliness with a redirect to something brighter. When I countered that that was all she did, over and over again. Venting about every little thing you can imagine, blowing them all out of proportion and making it all about her - oh NOOOOOO! Then I was an asshole for treating her that way. 


My point - I think you can tell her until the cows come home and she's still gonna be who she is. Boundaries mean we determine how we want to live and be treated. I learned to limit my exposure, then limit it some more. I can't change her but owed it to myself to change the situation. It was slowly choking the life out of me.

[Cat of the Canals]

And there are certainly days where I have more tolerance than others.  Is that fair to mom?  Well, fair or not, it's how it is. 

To quote my enDad, "Life isn't fair!"   

In all seriousness, though, I've seen this idea crop up of asking "are you in a mental space where you can listen to me vent for a while?" before doing so, which acknowledges the fact that there is an emotional toll to being someone's shoulder to cry on. Moglow's mother is a perfect example of someone who doesn't acknowledge that concept at all. She expects people to accept every little bit of negativity as if it's a gift and then ask for more.

Now, I don't think every relationship or interaction requires the "can I vent?" question, but thoughtlessly dumping constant negativity on someone is a really unfair thing to do to. In fact, it's one of the main reasons we have THERAPISTS. They aren't just trained to help you through it... they're also trained on how to deal with the burden of hearing some pretty terrible things day in and day out.

[Poison Ivy]

Before I lived alone (i.e., when my children were still at home and I was married), I often felt like the "emotional thermostat" for the family. That is, it seemed that my children and husband felt free to express their emotions and be in bad moods while expecting that I would not express my emotions and would always be in a good mood. It was rough.

[Boat Babe]

Another thing my mum said that left me speechless.

Me: Mum, please don't complain to me so much. It's draining.

Mum (indignant): Well who else can I complain to?

Gargh!

[Sneezy]

Mum (indignant): Well who else can I complain to?

I am starting to suspect that you are all my siblings and we are talking about the same parent 

Our parents need to present a perfect picture to the rest of the world.  They are the saintly, Godly, pure as can be little old ladies or gentlemen.  But all their anxiety and other bad feelings have to go somewhere.  And so, as you all have mentioned, they vent and complain to us.  We are their emotional thermostats as Poison Ivy puts it.  We are the sponges that absorb their bad feelings and smile and entertain and distract them.  We were raised to fulfill that role.  And I for one am getting darned tired of it!!!

[wisingup]

We are the sponges that absorb their bad feelings and smile and entertain and distract them.  We were raised to fulfill that role.  And I for one am getting darned tired of it!!!

Oh yes, so much this!  In hindsight, so much of my teen years were spent absorbing mom's venting & moods.  Pretty soon, I was on high alert whenever I was with her - looking for ways to smooth her path and head off a meltdown.  She seems to have no awareness of how negative she is compared with most people, or any interest in how it affects those around her.

[Sneezy]

Another thing my mum said that left me speechless.

Me: Mum, please don't complain to me so much. It's draining.

Mum (indignant): Well who else can I complain to?

Gargh!

I got this today!  I told Mom that her constant complaining is draining me.  I told her my heart is racing after our phone calls and I'm not sleeping well.  Her response - "I need to vent."  That's it - no concern whatsoever for what her constant complaining does to me or my mood. 

As many of you have advised, I try to limit conversation when Mom gets negative.  But everything she says is negative.  It never stops.  I finally told her that if she is as miserable as she says she is, then it was a mistake for her to move here and she needs to move back.  I truly wish she would.  But I'm afraid at 80+, she's not going anywhere.

[moglow]

Ermagerd!!! Mine said that too: "I need to vent!" Then do it, just don't do it to me! I didn't need or want that negativity spewed all over. I can't fix it and her venting seemed to multiply it, egg her on.

Seriously, maybe set a timer? Whoops gotta go, soups ready. Somebody's at the door. The dog needs to go out. I have to go ... Then end it quick sharp, no dragged out goodbyes.

[Sneezy]

Whoops gotta go, soups ready. Somebody's at the door. The dog needs to go out. I have to go ... Then end it quick sharp, no dragged out goodbyes.

Or as Woman Interrupted used to say - "Gotta go, the dog's on fire" 

[moglow]

Yes!! Then giggle maniacally as you hang up the phone!! 

Do. It. Guarandamntee you'll feel better.

[Boat Babe]

Whoops gotta go, soups ready. Somebody's at the door. The dog needs to go out. I have to go ... Then end it quick sharp, no dragged out goodbyes.

Or as Woman Interrupted used to say - "Gotta go, the dog's on fire" 

I have taken that saying into my actual real life!

[Andeza]

 "I need to vent!" my immediate gut response would be "Then do it to a therapist, they get paid to listen to your crap." Mine always just griped she had nobody else to talk to. Gee, I wonder why?

But the dog being on fire is definitely the kinder answer, and I concur with setting a timer.