Confirmation that I'm Not Crazy

[Worthy of Care]

Living with someone who has Avoidant Personality Disorder is crazy-making. On the outside, my husband is a nice, stable man. I walked alone in my confusion and distress for a long time. I still get confused and at times think, "Is it just me?" Someone with AVPD regulates his emotions and than everything is fine. In my case, I am still upset, but to him it is like nothing happened. So the following will be "evidences" of his avoidance and it's not just in my head or me needing too much.



This week a situation happened where my H and a couple of my adult children made a decision that would affect all of our lives. When I got home from work, H said, we are all okay with _________, but we all need to be in agreement, so if you aren't okay with it, we won't do it. The next day I told him that I was really angry because he set me up as the bad guy. I pointed out that this was a pattern in our marriage. The kids would ask permission to do something, he would say okay with him, ask mom. H denied he set me up. He talked about why they made the decision. I told him that wasn't the point. The point was that he set me up to be the bad guy. End of conversation. He left for work.

A short time after that, I received a text from him: "Have fun at work. Love you." I didn't respond.

I shared the details with my T. He affirmed that H did set me up. I was starting to doubt myself, so that was helpful.

I'm proud of myself because I shared my anger with him, I didn't expect him to hear or understand me, when he tried to explain his decision I brought it back to the main point---setting me up. In the past, I would have interpreted his text as, "he's trying. He wants to connect." Now I know that Avoidants will do whatever it takes for peace. His text was really just a way to shut the door on the issue.

The situation ended up not happening because of another party. I thought my son would be disappointed and I told him that I was sorry it fell through. My H had put the final decision on my son. My son said that he was relieved because he had some concerns about the situation. He stated that he wished dad hadn't put the final decision on him. I told him to tell dad that. He said there was no point because the situation wouldn't happen again. Normally, I would encourage him to say what he felt. In this case I didn't because dad would make excuses and deflect. My son wouldn't be heard anyway.


I'm not crazy. I can trust my perception. My H has uAVPD.

[Worthy of Care]

I needed to go to another town nearby to pick something up. My H offered to do it for me. I declined because it wasn't too for out of the way on my way home from work. There are times when my H does something kind and it feels like he's trying to check off the boxes of "being a good husband," in other words, keep the boat in calm water. There are other times when what he does feels genuinely kind and caring. I'm only going by my instincts, but I'm learning to trust my gut about my H. In this case, I felt like he was being genuinely kind. I know though, that his kind offer was NOT and indication that there was a possibility for further emotional intimacy.

[Worthy of Care]

This weekend, my H said that he was invited to someone's house for drinks. He asked if I wanted to come. I told him I'd think about it. I evaluated what I wanted/needed. Although I would have enjoyed seeing one of the people, my biggest need is time to myself, so I told him no. He said he'd reschedule. I said that he should just go without me. He said that he wasn't used to drinking so he needed me there to drive. Inside, I was laughing. He wasn't inviting me, he was inviting a designated driver.   

In the past I would have been upset and would have tried talking to him about it. I am about 90% sure how that conversation would go. Not worth my effort or time.


I'm not crazy. I can trust my perception. My H has uAVPD.

[chowder]

Worthy,

Oh, I can relate to this exact same thing.  H's kids would approach him about something.  Being affable and never saying no, he'd respond, Sure, I don't see any reason why not, let me just run it past Chowder.   

Well, then of course if I foresaw something that he did not see and the answer turned out to be no, then who was the bad guy?   After much T he finally did see how he would set me up and put me in the position where the kids knew they had a yes response if not for me.  It caused many a fission in our family.  I told him it then had an unintended consequence, because if he suggested flying overseas to visit one of his kids, I was reluctant to do so because of the dynamic that evolved.  Indeed, we did forgo a trip just because of my comfort level.  My sense of obligation only goes so far, and then I take care of me.  (Maybe that should be the other way around, another work in progress.)

That's not to say that this yes-first/check-with-Chowder-later still can't happen.  I believe it's H's default position to be his kids' pal, especially his two biological kids who are my steps.  It takes effort for him to remember to say "Let me talk it over with Chowder" before making his own commitment.   I've always got the antennae up. 

It is not you.  Trust your gut.  Joint decisions are to be joint decisions, without a tipping of the hand one way or the other ahead of time. 

Keep up the good work following your instincts.

[Worthy of Care]

Chowder, thank you for sharing. I asked my H to say "let me talk to mom," instead of just giving his okay. He rarely did that. He never understood or accepted that he was making me the bad guy the way he did things.

It is not you.  Trust your gut.  Joint decisions are to be joint decisions, without a tipping of the hand one way or the other ahead of time. 

Keep up the good work following your instincts.

I don't think my H really has the ability to have a back and forth conversation and make a joint decision. It's more like him in his box; "this is what I think," he keeps me in my box, (sometimes) hears my thoughts, then----boom-----conclusion. There is very little discussion.

Thanks for your encouragement to trust my gut. I need to hear that.

[chowder]

Worthy,

Well, oftentimes H's "discussion" is just his attempt to plead his case, with not much true listening.  And he tries to spin and manipulate the conversation off point and go in circles.  This is why we stay in T every couple of weeks, whether or not we need it, as it's become a safety net (mine?) before things get too out of control.   On the financial side, H has often brought up wanting to "help" his kids and give them money and not wait until he's dead, so he can see them enjoy it.  I am not willing to do that.  The kids are in their mid and late 40s and are doing quite well, and they are very cavalier with their money, honestly.  Of course I don't agree with giving them our money.  So now, rather than get into a heated argument where H just digs in and gets defensive about "my sons, my sons," I just suggest we call our financial advisor and see what he says.  (I know what he will say, it's a recurring theme now.)  Financial advisor always tells him no and the reasons why not.   Later, I've often told our financial advisor, in a one-on-one with him, that he's becoming our marriage counselor.

And so it goes.

Keep your antennae up and follow your gut, it sounds like you've got a good one.

[Worthy of Care]

Chowder,
"not true listening, conversation off point and going in circles"-----oh yeah.

Interesting you bring up your financial advisor. We are meeting with our advisor soon. I'm a bit in knots about it because last time we met, H saw and heard what he wanted to see and hear. Just yesterday I had to point out to H that an inheritance that I received from a friend, is not to be included in our (really his) retirement fund. I was clear about that at last meeting so not sure why he thinks it is okay to include that money. I think that before our meeting with financial advisor, I need to contact him and make it clear to him that friend's inheritance money is mine, not ours, and not to be part of the discussion.

[Worthy of Care]

Part of my H's uAVPD includes not allowing himself to ask for something for himself directly. This week he sent me this text: "How about a hair cut on Sunday?" I've asked him to ask me. I even gave him the words; just say, "Will you give me a haircut?" Today he said, "Don't forget we have a haircut."

This may seem like a minor thing, even petty, but it hooks into quarter of a century of living with his avoidance. The little indications of uAVPD are reminders of the years of pain.

[1footouttadefog]

Protect yourselves financially.

A lot can go wrong in a hurry when a od goes off track. 

My spouse went off the rails and we lots 10's of thousands before I nlinew what was up.  I had to take guardianship of him.

What gets me is that I worked 2 jobs and start and stopped my education so many times so we would not have to go into savings or sell family assets he had inherited and bought with his military income decades ago.  This all if the sudden it's okay for him to sell it all for pennies on the dollar just to make the dealers happy.  He was taken advantage of to be sure, bit his instinct was to not value me in the decision to sell and to do it behind my back.

He sold stiuf my kids inherited and stuff I bought etc.  I spent my inheritance from an elderly friend I was care taker for finishing our un finished basement.  I did something for us all. 

Now he lives in that basement apt because things have gotten too much for us there be together 24/7.

When they get set on a dream or getting narc supply, lots of money can be diverted.  Anything from buying clothes, to starting an expensive hobbies to a business idea etcm. It can all be a big convoluted messjust to get some attention from a new supply.  Often they will never reveal the truth of what they are up to because we mom's are not entitled , only them.

[Lauren17]

WOC. You are not crazy.
I've been set up to be the bad guy like you've described for everything from DD asking if she can have ice cream for dinner to getting a puppy to buying his mother very lavish, costly gift.
On the ice cream incident, he was out with DD and called me.
"DD wants ice cream for dinner. Is that ok with you?"
"Or course not!"
(To daughter) "sorry. Mom says no ice cream for dinner."
I called him on being out of line and making me the bad guy. His rationale? He doesn't care if she has ice cream for dinner, but he knows I do.   
This was when we were much younger. I was deep in the FOG. uNPDh still had a couple of work friends. He relayed the story to a work friend, most likely seeking validation that I was the one in the wrong. The friend told him I was right.
UNPDh apologized. Didn't stop this, but did find more subtle ways to go about it.

[chowder]

Worthy, depending on what state you are in, you may be able to keep that inheritance separate.  Once you commingle the funds, then it is joint property.  And even then, I'm not sure if it should go into his retirement account, which presumably is money from his employment, 401(k), etc.  You may want to consult your financial advisor and an attorney.

Lauren, I was so in the fog years ago, that used to happen to me as well.  D would want something, I would say no.  She would call Dad, he would tell her yes on the phone, then he would ask to speak to me.  So here we have D handing me the phone and seeing H and I discuss.   I finally woke up and told H that I will speak to him, but it will be separate and apart from being in front of her, no less her handing me the phone and standing there and watching him go to bat on her behalf.

I don't know how I ever survived those years.

[Lauren17]

Part of my H's uAVPD includes not allowing himself to ask for something for himself directly. This week he sent me this text: "How about a hair cut on Sunday?" I've asked him to ask me. I even gave him the words; just say, "Will you give me a haircut?" Today he said, "Don't forget we have a haircut."

This may seem like a minor thing, even petty, but it hooks into quarter of a century of living with his avoidance. The little indications of uAVPD are reminders of the years of pain.

Thank you for describing the why of this!
I've  always thought it was not wanting the responsibility of the decision. 
UNPDh will project the want onto someone else.
At the zoo with the family. "We need to stop at the hotdog cart. DD is really hungry and is getting angry," No, she just had an apple and a granola bar, you're the one that's hungry!
Or, he will keep asking me what I want over and over ago until he gets the answer he's looking for.
"Don't you want to stop at the hot dog cart?"
"Do you think you get chips or fries with your hot dog?"
"Are you ready to stop at the hot dog cart now?"
It's infuriating.

[Lauren17]

I don't know how I ever survived those years.

[Poison Ivy]

Lauren17 said, "I've  always thought it was not wanting the responsibility of the decision." This happened over and over with my ex. Among the more notable examples: He didn't propose marriage to me. He wouldn't decide whether to go out of state for a job a few years after we got married.

[Worthy of Care]

Thank you all for your wisdom and for sharing about finances and about PD not asking for something directly. It helps to hear what you have to say.


I have noticed that I have a lot of conversations in my head. Some of the conversations are between H & myself. Some are in the scenario of being in marriage therapy. So why do I do that? At this point in my journey, I think those conversations are harmful and not helpful. There is a reason I make up these conversations in my head. Here are my thoughts so far. If any of you have suggestions or similar experiences, I'd like to hear those.

> Growing up in trauma, I had to be on high alert. Reading the room and reading people was a means of survival. Some of my conversations in my head with my husband, are ways to try and know what is going on.

> With his lack of communication, there is a big void. I am trying to fill in the void myself.

> Especially when my thoughts include a marriage counselor, I think that I am hanging on to a shred of hope that he will hear and be willing to work toward change.

> I have so many feelings about him and the marriage (mostly anger now). With our lack of communication, there is no where for those feelings to go. With the conversations in my head, I'm able to say what I want to say and there is a place for my feelings to go.

> It is crazy-making for me when things are horrible, but on the outside, people are looking and acting like everything is okay. The conversations in my head deal with the reality of the emptiness, pain, and hurt.

[Lauren17]

WOC, I have those internal conversations too! And it's a struggle to turn them off.
You asked why you do that. Here's what I've learned.
It's the cognitive dissonance.
Your brain knows the "right" answer to the conversation. But the feedback you got didn't fit that. So, your brain is running through the scenario over and over again, trying to make the pieces fit.
It's not helpful because the pieces will never fit. And it ends up that you are experiencing the stress of the situation over and over again. Mostly likely while H is happily watching TV. (That makes me angry just typing it!)
I think understanding the why is an important first step to stopping it. And it sounds like you're making good progress there.

[Worthy of Care]

Lauren, thank you so much. That is really helpful. My brain is trying to make the pieces fit, but the pieces will never fit. I experience the stress over and over.

[escapingman]

WOC, I have those internal conversations too! And it's a struggle to turn them off.
You asked why you do that. Here's what I've learned.
It's the cognitive dissonance.
Your brain knows the "right" answer to the conversation. But the feedback you got didn't fit that. So, your brain is running through the scenario over and over again, trying to make the pieces fit.
It's not helpful because the pieces will never fit. And it ends up that you are experiencing the stress of the situation over and over again. Mostly likely while H is happily watching TV. (That makes me angry just typing it!)
I think understanding the why is an important first step to stopping it. And it sounds like you're making good progress there.

[Worthy of Care]

Two small victories:
1) Three of us were working in the kitchen. H was also there, standing in the way. In the past I would have just been irritated at his cluelessness. He was clueless that he was in the way. This time, I pictured that little boy, wanting to be seen, but not being noticed or included. Whether or not that was deep inside of him, I will never know, but I was able to have compassion and not just irritation.
2) I hurt my back. I've been in pain. In the past I would have been really hurt and very angry at H's lack of asking me how I am and lack of assistance. Now I know that he avoids pain---emotional and physical. It still hurts to not receive compassion or empathy, but I know that he is not capable.

[MountainGal]

Worthy, I relate to this so much. My H has started taking my kid to BIG fun activities on the weekend. She's only 4. He took her to the movies and Chuck E. Cheese just on a whim. Now she always wants to do these things every weekend and I'm the bad guy because I don't. Partly, I'm focused on getting chores done on the weekend and also there is still a pandemic so I thought we'd decided we weren't going to crowded places? He has said no to signing her up for dances or swim classes because of the pandemic, which are things I want to do with her. Dad is always the fun parent because he spends lots of money on her and takes her to big activities. I'm the boring/bad one who says "no, we can't go to Chuck E. Cheese every week." It sucks.