When to go?

[Leonor]

Hi OoFers,

I recently moved to dh's country to start a new chapter of our lives. Our boys are doing fabulous. I was excited to start a new career and even had a few offers already. DH was happy to be home again.

Immediately, like within 24 hours, the ILs emergency siren started blaring. FIL had CHF, and suffered a heart attack. He went home, where dh visited him an hour per day to take care of him. Yesterday morning, he passed away. The loss has hit dh harder than he thought it would, and the boys are very sad to lose their beloved nano.

When I saw after the first few weeks that dh had slipped back into caretaker mode, I realized that I was over it. Just over it. So many boundaries and agreements and lines drawn that he cannot hold because of sadness and guilt. I had believed that I was the problem: I had CPTSD, I was codependent, I was too needy and demanding. The narrative from dh at his most triggered was: I had cut off my family (not all the way true, but whatever) and I wanted dh to do the same (okay, that is true, but I have never said that or implied that is what dh should do, ever.)

What I want is for dh and I to hold the center of gravity for our little family, not be pulled out of orbit constantly by his whack job, chaos manufacture, depressive and depressing relatives. And what I've seen is that might not be possible.

I've compromised for decades now. I hadn't realized how much and for how long until I heard a video from Ken Adams on enmeshment where he says, "A visit is not a vacation."  From that point of view, our last vacation was our honeymoon (which incidentally was planned by my own grandiose uber narc mom, back when I was enmeshed.)

I've finally gotten to the point where I don't care if I'm being needy or demanding, or if I want something that's not typical of the culture. I don't care if his relatives will be incapable of normal life without dh. And I don't care if I can't quite articulate how I know that games are being played, or that dh is sucked in again.

I know it. I'm 50 years old, and I've done my work, and I trust my gut (and have the gut to prove it . I'm done waiting around for dh to grow up and man up to his relatives. I'm done coming in second place in my own damn life. I'm back applying for full time work, and if dh decides to not really do his work and save this marriage, I'd love to rent a little flat close by and share custody with dh, amicably.

A few days ago I said how I felt in a way I felt good about. I said everything I wanted to say. But I'm done doing the saying, drawing the boundaries, holding the line. When dh said, Do you want to talk more? I said, No, but I'm willing to listen. Later that day, dh called me to say FIL was gone.

Now my question is, when do I leave? We just uprooted the boys to move them overseas. It's a month until Christmas. FIL just died a few hours ago. It would suck, but I could hack it out for the boys. I really don't want this Christmas to be "The One When I Moved Away, Lost my Grandpa and My Parents Split Up."

DH is scheduled to move back to the US next Fall for a year. Do I give him that year to figure stuff out? Do I wait until the new year and then file for divorce? Do I ask us to separate in house (it's a TEENY TINY flat)?

I do love this man. But I also see my own pattern of waiting around for someone to finish up whatever they're doing (working, drinking, getting married, getting divorced, dying, what the f$#@ ever) and pay attention to me. I'm tired of this or that adult to have bigger problems and need more than me. I'm tired of being the bigger person! I just want to be a person.

My bottom line is now that I'm going to do what I came here to do. DH is going to have to work on his own damn self. If he can't or won't, then that makes me sad. But I won't stay (I almost wrote "can't" but I actually can, I want to step into my adulthood and make a conscious choice.)

My question for you all is, when? I mean there is never a good time, but this just seems like a really particularly bad time.

[Leonor]

DH came home from FIL's funeral and said he knew that I was unhappy and that he was unhappy and said he wanted to go to counseling to work on his issues.

I said, I think that could be helpful and he said will you go with me? And I said yes, but to marriage counseling, not his own, and that he would have to set it up. And he said ok.

We made a date to talk again in a few days.

He still doesn't get it. He'll say, "Look, all I know is, I don't want to cut off my parents but I'm open to any arrangements that you can live with." And I'm like, "No, that's not it. It's, Look, all I know is, I don't want this marriage to end, and I'm open to any arrangements to make that happen."

Or he'll say, "I just want to set up all the practical stuff so when my mom starts to fail I'll do things differently" and I say, "No, that's not it. It's that you do things differently without setting up all the practical stuff, regardless of your mom starting to fail."

Or he'll say, "I know my mom and sister are like two people. There's a person I feel like I can deal with and another person that's just really toxic." And I'm like, "No, that's not it. It's that even though sometimes you think you can deal with them, there's another side of them that's just really toxic."

And after I say these things his face lights up and he says, "Yeah! Right! That's what I mean!" And I say, "But that's not what you say. That's not what comes from you naturally." And he said, "Yeah, that's why I need help because I can't get there on my own."

I still don't move from my center. I'm medium chill on my dh, and I hate it. But I feel that's how I have to be right now. Observant. Not hostile or argumentative. Observant.

[Cat of the Canals]

I'm so sorry you're in this place, Leonor. It's hard enough to end a relationship because it isn't working at all. Harder still, I think, to consider ending a relationship where it *could* work if the other person would stop getting dragged into PD nonsense.

Having experienced a loss recently on the PD in-law side of our family, I would give things at least until January to settle. My husband's first instinct when his brother died was to rush to PDmil's side. I was the one that said, "I think that would be a very bad idea." He was pretty adamant the day he found out and maybe even the next day, too. It wasn't until he'd had a few days for it to really sink in that he realized I was right. There was perhaps another week or so where he was kind of in and Out of the FOG, but PDmil predictably got more and more ridiculous to the point that about 2 months out, he was ready to go full NC. So that was quite a turnaround from that first day. He did not go NC in the end, but he has pretty unequivocally stated that his relationship with his mother is fractured beyond repair, and he's (mostly) committed to doing the bare minimum.

It does sound to me like marriage counseling could be helpful... right now it seems like your husband is happy to have you be the one to push him to set boundaries, and that isn't really fair when you are supposed to be NC. Setting boundaries for yourself and your children, yes. But coming up with boundaries for him as well? At some point he needs to take responsibility for that himself. So maybe a counselor could step in and be the one to take some of that burden off of you.

Does it help at all to discuss the practical aspects? He says he wants to set things up for when his mom starts to fail... does he even know what that looks like? Saying it is one thing, doing it is another. If you said to him, "OK, then take a week or two, and start looking into what that entails. And then come back to me with a plan to discuss..." Is that something that could work or is that more of the same, i.e., putting quite a bit of burden on you to be a sounding board about people you are supposed to be NC with?

[Hilltop]

Would it possible for him to go back to the US in the fall for a year and you stay where you are and see how a year apart feels? 

[bloomie]

Leonor - the death of a parent - especially one where there has been such conflicting and complicated history with is a lot to process - having experienced this myself. I am so sorry this is unfolding in such a unsettling way and you are faced with some really tough decisions in your relationship with your DH.

What I want is for dh and I to hold the center of gravity for our little family, not be pulled out of orbit constantly

You always put things in such concise and clear ways that is helpful and describes the issue perfectly.

I don't know if this is what may be a factor for your DH, but with my own there seems to be an inability to hold onto fundamental truths about the character and nature of his FOO when strong emotional triggers arise. His trauma responses kick in and it is painful to be anywhere nearby for me at this point having watched him cycle through this so many times.

I still don't move from my center. I'm medium chill on my dh, and I hate it. But I feel that's how I have to be right now. Observant. Not hostile or argumentative. Observant.

This is wise. To hold steady and give this all some time to settle without going toward the unhealthy aspects you are seeing in your DH. Very hard to do when we live in the same home, but keeping our steps heading forward in a good and positive direction will bring answers to you. I truly believe that. 

[Leonor]

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for your support always, I'm in tears.

I always knew I was enmeshed with my mom, like really enmeshed. I remember Oprah once said on her show, "Don't make your mom your best friend, or nothing will seem real until you tell her," and I thought, that's weird, nothing is real until I tell my mom. Enmeshed like, when I first started therapy and my t. brought up enmeshment I said, "Well, I don't know, but I used to think if anything ever happened to her, I would end my life, too" and she was like, "Um, yeah, that is enmeshment." So I'm reading everything I can on enmeshment to understand dh and instead I'm like, yeah, yup, that was me, hmm hmm, that too ...

DH is a different kind of enmeshment. My mom was grandiosely narcissistic ... To get to my mom's level, you'd have to trill the "r" in grandiose. But my ILS are way covert, hermit, chaos bpd, so dh's GC role is caretaker/boss. I thought if my mom disappeared, I would fall apart, but dh believes that if he disappeared, his parents would fall apart. Which makes him angry with them, or sad for them. There's no in between, and it's obsessive. It runs so deep, there's layers of subconscious guilt and fear inside.

But yesterday he had said, hey, let's go on a walk, just you and me, and we'll laugh and have fun and take a break from all this for a while. And I said, okay, cool. I still stayed mc, be sure going on a walk (now that he has a moment since FIL passed) to me, is a nice idea but not more. So off we go, lovely day, and we're not two blocks from our place when dh starts looking off toward his mom's house. And I said, are you seeing if your mom is out? And he sighed and said, no, it's just that the park there is where I used to visit my dad. Fair enough, I rub his back a little and say, I'm sorry, he was lucky to have you in these last few days ...

... Half a mile later, he's still not saying anything and is sighing. All if a sudden our little jaunt is the Trail of Tears, and I cannot tell you how many times I've gone on that walk in the past 20 years. It usually ended up with me consoling dh or thinking up ways to solve whatever ridiculous problem us being mass-experienced at the moment.

And instead, I say, Dh! And he says What? And I say, Stop. He says, Stop what? And I said, Moping! You said you wanted to supposed take a little break and just enjoy a morning with me. And he said that he couldn't help it because he couldn't stop thinking about his dad. Okay, whatever, halfway through I said, you know, let's just go home. Now we're not talking. He's all bummed out and I don't want to get back down in the dumps with him.

I get the sad, but I also sense this transformation of Dad from really troubled and problematic individual to kindly old guy, and it's pissing me off. This is the same person who sat in my living room on Christmas and baited my dh for days until dh snapped, and then he pretended to have a heart attack.

Instead I'm either supposed to jump into the deep end (FIL! MIL! SIL! Oh my!) or sit around and wait for my turn like a customer at a busy bakery, just holding this crumpled-up paper ticket.

[Seven]

Leonor
I'm with you...you know that.  My mom was same covert grandiose narc while my ILs (well MIL) was uBPD, hermit, waif, eternal victim, etc.

My DH never had a good relationship with either of his parents.  FIL was never around when DH was growing up (he did shift work). DH moved out at age 16 with still a year left of school and was surprised when FIL showed up at his high school graduation.   That's how distant.  And as adults, MIL controlled the entire narrative.  No "I love yous", no hugs,  nada.  Emotionally immature parents.

He wants to be closer to FIL because he never had it.  I'm just afraid he's going to be disappointed.  And yes, I too need DH to be centered in OUR FOC. I think he will be centered, but everything right now is still in the "acute" stages. 

I also think that major decisions shouldn't be made immediately following a life-altering event. Maybe continue with your MC and hopefully your DH will come out of whatever funk it is that he's in.

[Call Me Cordelia]

One more in the "respond, don't react" camp. You've pointed out to me before that I/we can wait make decisions when either of us are in a triggered state, and be more confident in what's decided. It's okay to just let things sit for a time and dip into some serious self-care. You were so right. Here to return the favor.

[nillah]

Leonor, this is a lot of heaviness to experience and I'm sorry you're going through it. I also deeply admire how you're handling it, very mature! You're on the right track and I am sending you all the encouragement. As for the timing, I don't have own experience to rely on but I concur with the ones above suggesting to give it a bit more time.

I just wanted to share a little tip I've picked up from my time dealing with my enmeshed ex and his PD ILs: try to avoid going down the Rabbit Hole. I call the Rabbit Hole any time my thoughts are super centered on my ex and analyzing all the intricacies of how he perceives them, what they have done to him and how he should change his perceptive, how only if he could do xyz then he would be able to see the truth, when they said this-and-that. It really is a place of endless depth, and it's easy for you to get sucked in because (1) you have your own experience dealing with enmeshment through therapy, (2) his hesitance probably triggers your desire to over-explain, (3) in my case there was also a bit of ego-boost that I can provide this higher insight to him. So I was obsessively fixated on him seeking therapy so he can finally uncover all the mess, but he never actually went, and my quality of life was dipping the whole time. All this to say, all the insights gains and time spent going down the Rabbit Hole in the end didn't serve me.

For me, avoiding the Rabbit Hole is really an act of inner self-care. It's hard to always turn away, but you build the muscle with time. I noticed that each time I go down the Rabbit Hole, I end up feeling all kinds of angry and drained afterwards. This is not good for your health/body. In worst cases, it can turn into controlling behavior where even though you have the good intentions, your insistence on the other person having a certain perception/taking certain actions, actually ends up mirroring the same behaviors you're condemning. This is why you just have to disengage from the Rabbit Hole. I'm still in Couples Counselling with my ex, and whenever the Rabbit Hole opens up in front of me, I describe outwardly what I'm seeing so that I can avoid getting sucked into it (eg, "I can see this discussion is about trying to convince me that I'm too sensitive and should accept SIL's behavior, so I am not going to engage in it."). I hope this helps you start to recover from all the toxic exposure even as you stay for a bit longer.

[Leonor]

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your wisdom and kind words. You're all right that it's not a good idea for me to make big decisions right now. So I won't, and when I get frustrated I will try to sidestep the dreaded Rabbit Hole.

For a few days, dh was trying to be present with me. It was nice and his heart was in the right place, but it was also sad, because I could tell he was trying, you know? Like, okay, today I'm going to make an Effort!

Then a day or so he was gone again. It's like being roommates who get along well. I can't quite put my finger on it. Anyway, we were alone for a few minutes and I asked how he was, how everyone was, and he said good, he had talked to his mom a few times, wanted to see her today, was that ok with me?

Well, like, yes, it's ok, it's not my call, plus she's just been widowed and there are things to do, if she were normal we'd all be there. But that was what happened: when dh engages with his family and doesn't want me to know about it, he just clocks out.

Apparently she's acting normal, but she's not normal, she's just acting. I guess when dh asked her how she wanted to handle her living situation, she said she wanted to stay at home until her dog died and then go to a nursing home. Right. I don't even know what that means. Is that a plan or something? "Oh, don't worry about me, I'll be fine all alone until my dog dies and then you can put me away somewhere ... "

And then dh starts with the nonsense about children not being able to renounce an inheritance and being legally burdened with elder care in this country. He must have seen my face ( )because that talk puttered out real quick. I happen to have done my own research, and I know there are lots of very common legal options to handle elder care, end of life and inheritance issues here, so I don't buy it.

But, then again, no spelunking in the Rabbit Hole!

So I'm focusing on learning my new skills and moving ahead with my own life here. I'm so tired of waiting.

[bloomie]

Hi Leonor - you are taking this one step at a time and there is much good that comes from that. Love your goal of staying focused on your forward journey, healthy coping, and authentic sharing of how hard and uncertain this can all be here where we can support you and get it.

But, then again, no spelunking in the Rabbit Hole!

Adding this gem to my life when I am tempting to do the same!