Holidays and seeing uPDMom and her minions

[kelleron]

Hi everyone. I have a uBPDMom who I have not spoken to in roughly 2 years. I have moved out about 1 year ago. Only a few family members know about this, including my brother, aunt and uncle. My uncle has always vehemently disapproved of me moving out, especially when my reason is to get away from uBPDMom. I avoid him where possible. However, a few months ago he launched into a guilt-tripping monologue about my going NC and my moving out.

I have since found it very difficult to let go of this incident and would like some advice about telling toxic family members about going NC and emotionally moving on from them.


Context
To understand why my uncle did this, I need to explain the several episodes uBPDMom had beforehand.

1. My Non-PD brother has been recovering from a co-dependent relationship with my mother. He has since moved out, but still checks in on her. Once, the two got into a fight, and uBPDMom threatened suicide as a means to get what she wants. My brother then calls my aunt, who got my uncle involved. He went down to uBPDMom's house to calm her down. Apparently, uncle and uBPDMom talked till late into the night.

2. On that very evening, uBPDMom had scheduled an email to all her brothers, sisters and children about "Her Story". Each one was an "expose" about each of her siblings, children and parents. I got one about me too. Like the others, it was very long, rambling and delusionally biased towards herself. I just skimmed it since it was filled with empty lies and accusations, as usual.

I have since blocked uBPDMom on social media and messenger apps, and made a separate folder for her emails. At least she can't ruin my week whenever she wants. Instead I control when, or even if I want to, read her hate mail.


The Guilt-Tripping Incident
Fast-forward a month. When I was visiting my grandma's, my uncle and I were talking privately. He suddenly started talking about uBPDMom and how I need to mend fences with her. He was guilting me by bringing my future hypothetical children, asking if I would want my children to grow up without a grandma. I don't remember the specifics, but he was generally insinuating that I "didn't do enough to help her". As if I could resolve her mental illness for her.

This incident has been troubling me for months. It keeps replaying in my mind like a traumatic event. Like those I have with uBPDMom. I feel afraid that I am going to be punished for going NC with her.

I don't understand why relatives do this. Shouldn't it be obvious who is at fault? People who use suicide as a threat to get what they want, need to go to therapy. Why do I need to even spell that out? They are the ones who need to work on themselves.

Logically, I know I have nothing to be punished for. I didn't do anything wrong. Emotionally though...I still feel plagued by feelings of FOG.


Christmas And Anxiety
With Christmas coming up, I know I will have to see my uncle and uBPDMom again. I am dreading this whole experience. I don't like them. I didn't want to get gift for them, but I did it anyway. I want to skip this fake Christmas altogether. My blood boils at the thought of spending time with either of them.

How do you deal with disapproving/self-righteous relatives when going NC? When I moved out, I didn't know about NC, I just knew I needed space, a lot of it.

Did you guys explicitly tell your relatives you were going NC? How did you set and enforce boundaries?

Finally, how do you deal with the holidays? Do you see your PDMom/Dad at the gathering? Do you attend them at all?

I know I will need to formally announce my NC status to everyone eventually. It would be very comforting to hear your experiences with relatives. Thank you so much in advance 

[bee well]

Hi Kelleron,

You are in a difficult situations, and I can relate.

I'll try to address as many of your points as I  can.

I can only comment on what I see in reading your post, and from my own experience. I do not offer any judgment of you or your family situation. Nor can I say what is the best path for you to take.

I am sorry about the guilt tripping you are dealing with, and that you are not getting a lot of support from certain family members. I know that feels terrible- In my experience guilt, whether direct or indirect, is one of the most difficult aspects of going NC. To complicate things you are navigating the difficult relationships with multiple family members.

I am also very very sorry about your Mother. Talk of suicide is frightening to say the least, and one we don't take lightly. In the cases where it is manipulative, it can feel cruel and engender an even more profound feeling of powerlessness in those around the person who talking about it. I hope your Mother gets better. It's not an impossibility, even if its an extremely difficult situation and not in your hands.

You are not in contact with your Mother at this time, but please have numbers of suicide intervention services close by in case you ever need to use them in the future.

It appears that, perhaps for a very long time, even before the break in contact with your Mother, that you have been trying to delineate a well-deserved space for yourself in spite of  the complicated situations you have described in your post.

You are not incarcerated, although it may have felt/feel that way at times. You have the right to choose to live where you want. Congratulations to you for having the courage to take that step in the face of criticism.

Other people may tell you differently, but there is nothing wrong with moving out to get away from a painful  situation. There's nothing wrong with moving out, period. It's a step in life that people take, and have the right to take even when there are horrible circumstances in the family. It's natural for you to want to help your Mother, and very sad and tragic to see her suffering, but it's not your responsibility to fix her, or spell it out for her or anyone else. It's can be frustrating to think about at times, but, she will either get there or she won't. You can practice self preservation first and exist on your own and still be a caring daughter in a semi-permanent, or permanently separate space. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

Going over things in your mind, over and over, or ruminating, is a natural consequence of what you are going through. When that happens it might be helpful to concentrate on your breathing. It also could help to write things out for yourself and differentiate between events and feelings, and things you can, and cannot control.

Logic and emotion are not the same, so it's ok to have conflicting thoughts and feeling at times. (Please, though, don't criticize yourself for being conflicted.) As far as logic goes, at least for me, using logic to confront a situation that has no logic has not been very productive.

About your Christmas situation:  many of us have gone ahead and done things for others we did not want to do, especially around the holidays. Again, I can speak for myself that the result usually hasn't been good. You could ask yourself, when you have the time to think about it, why,  would you do something that makes your blood boil? As far as now goes, You have still have a choice not to participate in the holidays. It may not be a comfortable choice to you, but it's still a choice.

In my own experience with NC I did not announce it. I have accepted that my relatives will be influenced by others' side of the story. I have accepted that I can not influence their opinion of me by telling my side, as it was never considered in the past. 

Some of us have said that a formal announcement of NC can be very destabilizing to those who receive them. If you decide to send it be prepared for the reaction. I personally decided that with all that I had been through that was exhausting me I did not need to spend more time and energy dealing with the FOO's reaction.

If you have family members that you think could be allies and want to maintain a relationship with, you might consider contacting them individually as an alternative to sending a general announcement.

So you can see where I am coming from: my family's back story is too convoluted to get into it here, but there are some parallels with your story. In my story, most all of our family conversations went on behind closed doors though, and things rarely came out in the open between all of us.  Before NC I had spent years trying to get the main uN to see my way, understand my feelings about various things that happened to me, and in our family. Things were minimized and I was often told to get over it and move on, and then things would be brought back up again when it suited the family member. It only brought more pain and was very confusing. In the meantime this person was isolating me from other family members, who had also been manipulative and callous in their own right. To this day I do not know the truth about all that has gone on and I accept that. I do know what happened to me though, and I know I have a right to exist in peace, as we all do.

The final straw before NC was when uN did not offer any empathy for something that was devastating for me, and would be for any human being. It was so cut and clear there was no room for doubt in my mind. (In retrospect I think this person was "annoyed" because my traumatic event was taking away from the endless source of "supply" I had been furnishing. It's interesting how it's always about them isn't it?)  When I civilly expressed the effect uN's response was having on me, it was turned around on me and I was told I was being too sensitive and that I was attacking the family member. That was it for me. I was exhausted from all the years of being gaslit and doubting myself, and simultaneously minimizing, being minimized, and cheerleading. It was all having a devastating effect on my health and I was through and had had enough. That's when I went NC. All of this happened instinctively. I did not understand the dynamics behind it until it was done. That's when I started educating myself. Now that I know what all of this is I am much more firm in my stance. (There are still difficult moments, but we all have them, don't we?)

Since going NC I have experienced numerous manipulative hoovers, which I have not responded to. It's actually quite pathetic and revealing  because in no point in time have they expressed concern that I might not be answering because something could have happened to me.

I don't have to deal with the holidays in the traditional sense, at least with FOO, because I went NC with one whole side of family and the other side is far away.

I am now waiting to see if the holiday hoovers will arrive, or if they have decided that I am cut out for good. If that happens, I will consider myself fortunate.

It's lonely and isolating at times but all of this has sparked a process of  personal growth and has allowed for reflection about all aspects of my life, not just the ones involving my FOO.

It's difficult because I have to accept that there are people who will not understand my choice, and have to be vague when talking about family matters. It's a tightrope, but much much better than before, and when the conversations are over, they are over. Unlike the constant ruminating I was experiencing when I was in the middle of the FOO storm.

In all of this I have learned that moving on emotionally is more of a journey than a destination. It's tiring at times. There is no time line, as many have said, but one of the wonderful things that can emerge is the time that frees up when we tune out the noise.

You are here on this forum so you have been obviously seeking information, and a place where your voice can be heard. Some of us have tried therapy and it has helped a lot for many. Of all the free info that is out there I find the stories here, and the glossary and toolbox on this site, and Dr. Ramani and Dr. Les' videos are great sources of information and validation, if you haven't already been looking at them.  Pete Walker's website is also an excellent point of reference. As many of us have been told, there is no one size fits all so you will likely go through a lot of different sources as you find your way.

You are putting yourself in the position of observer, rather than non-thinking participant, and in my opinion, that is a place from to approach things. Stepping outside of the situation and trying to imagine what advice an impartial outside observer would offer if we told them our story can also be helpful when we find ourselves in these types of situations.

I hope what I have written helps some. Thank you for reading what I have written about my own experience.

Be kind to yourself, you deserve it.

[Tribe16]

Kelleron, I am sorry for what you are going through. The holidays can be stressful enough without this is added to the mix. My supportive thoughts are with you.

Bee Well, you have left such a thoughtful and insightful post. You may not realize what a gift or another tool for the toolbox you have given me personally:

"You are putting yourself in the position of observer, rather than non-thinking participant, and in my opinion, that is a place from to approach things. Stepping outside of the situation and trying to imagine what advice an impartial outside observer would offer if we told them our story can also be helpful when we find ourselves in these types of situations."

This is incredibly helpful. Thank you.

[bee well]

H Tribe 16,
You are welcome.
I tell myself the same thing (what you quoted) all the time.
I'm glad you found it helpful.
Have a good day or evening, whichever it is where you are!

[kelleron]

You can practice self preservation first and exist on your own and still be a caring daughter in a semi-permanent, or permanently separate space. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

Going over things in your mind, over and over, or ruminating, is a natural consequence of what you are going through. When that happens it might be helpful to concentrate on your breathing. It also could help to write things out for yourself and differentiate between events and feelings, and things you can, and cannot control.

@bee well Thank you so much for sharing your thoughtful insights, bee well. You're right - I could separate my feelings from events more. It will be helpful as I continue on this journey.

Honestly, I am blown away by the thoughtfulness and sincerity in your response. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for sharing your story and what you have learnt!

About your Christmas situation:  many of us have gone ahead and done things for others we did not want to do, especially around the holidays. Again, I can speak for myself that the result usually hasn't been good. You could ask yourself, when you have the time to think about it, why,  would you do something that makes your blood boil? As far as now goes, You have still have a choice not to participate in the holidays. It may not be a comfortable choice to you, but it's still a choice.

It is true, I could simply not participate this year. The pros would be I'd have a calm and relaxed Christmas; the cons would be feeling lonely and left out. Honestly, I can't tell what the right decision is for me now. But, making this into a choice has put it in a different light. Thanks for pointing that out.

Things were minimized and I was often told to get over it and move on, and then things would be brought back up again when it suited the family member. It only brought more pain and was very confusing. In the meantime this person was isolating me from other family members, who had also been manipulative and callous in their own right.

The final straw before NC was when uN did not offer any empathy for something that was devastating for me, and would be for any human being. It was so cut and clear there was no room for doubt in my mind. When I civilly expressed the effect uN's response was having on me, it was turned around on me and I was told I was being too sensitive and that I was attacking the family member. That was it for me.

I relate to this so much. It is is a cycle of confusion and pain that PDs create that helps sustain the dysfunctional relationships they have. As much as it is paradoxical, I am glad that the final straw came. You seem like a very caring and thoughtful person and you deserve to be loved and cared for in a healthy manner. It is hard going NC. So, so hard. But I am happy for you, for us, because at least we are facing reality. It will always be better than living with "manipulative and callous" family members who do not have the capacity to love others fully.

I am now waiting to see if the holiday hoovers will arrive, or if they have decided that I am cut out for good. If that happens, I will consider myself fortunate.

It's lonely and isolating at times but all of this has sparked a process of  personal growth and has allowed for reflection about all aspects of my life, not just the ones involving my FOO.

It's difficult because I have to accept that there are people who will not understand my choice, and have to be vague when talking about family matters. It's a tightrope, but much much better than before, and when the conversations are over, they are over. Unlike the constant ruminating I was experiencing when I was in the middle of the FOO storm.

I am glad to hear that your choices have brought more happiness and clarity into your world! It is well deserved. Like you, talking about this topic feels like a "tightrope" too. Some strangers immediately judge me for saying anything critical of my family - it is in my culture unfortunately. I ignore them. Now, I will work on accepting that it extends to some family members too.

This forum is amazing. I feel like we can get through this together. Thank you for everyone's replies!

[bee well]

Hi Kelleron.

You are so welcome. Thanks for your response and for your support. It comes at a time when I really need it. Writing to you was helpful to me as well.

I think one of the wonderful things about this forum is that we can offer support to each other from where ever we are (and it's not an obligation! yay!) Some us us can't do it closer to home for whatever reasons so it's great to be able to do it here.

There are days I feel like I'm moving in the right direction, there's no time line, then at others it seems all jumbled up. I think why did this happen and why am I still dealing all of this. You probably know what I mean. Today is one of those days. (It'll pass, thankfully!)  I've been trying to remind my self that of course I am still facing it, what happened is a serious thing.

I think the holidays do a number on us because we'd rather be thinking about stuff besides how to deal with the fallout from the toxic people in our lives. (It's mindboggling how the PDs can uniquely manipulate our heartstrings, especially with important days, isn't it? It's almost like they have some innate ability to hone in on things.)

I don't think there's a "right" choice about participating in the holiday gatherings, We all sometimes don't want to do something go ahead and do it anyway because it feels like the lesser of two evils. As you said, when we look at it as a choice it puts it in a different light.

Thanks also for your words about NC. It's so so hard at times, and knowing there are other people who are dealing with similar things, really does make it a lot better.

I'm glad the straw came too. Who knows what would have happened if it hadn't.

About culture, it's interesting how it's so often focussed on obligation to family, and it's rarely if ever asked why someone would feel the need break from their family. I don't think there are many of us out there felt good about doing such a drastic thing. We did it for survival. Sadly, there are selfish people who abandon their families but we know that's not what NC is.

Some days are happy and clear and some are not, but there sure are a lot more happy and clear days now than before. That's a good enough start for me. (Today already feels better than when it began.)

Best to you, whatever you decide, it sounds like you have positive traction!

[LoverofPeace]

Hello Kelleron and Bee Well (amazing name!),

Let me say that I read all your posts on this forum and what amazes me is that specialists, who can help us  deal with FOOs and their NPD's, when reading both of your posts I felt that I was reading from those specialists! Even yours Kelleron, who came on here for advice; the way you told it already sounds wise as to realizing how certain members of your FOO was treating you and knowing you had to distance yourself. And with Bee Well's advice, it all tied in to being on the road to the health and happiness that you know you deserve. But also knowing it's a process that can go back and forth is important to understand, so that we don't give up on ourselves and instead get further each time. There are many gems in here I'm sure us victors (and not victims!) of NPD people can benefit from. Thank you for sharing your vulnerabilities about it.

Because I feel this was so well rounded, I wasn't going to post anything. But I think the more we share whatever thoughts we have, the more support we can feel.

I also would like to share some extra resources that I have benefited from on this crazy narc ride and upward journey I myself have been on (tired and renewing are the two words that comes to mind for what I've had to deal with growing up). Dr. Ramani is one of them already mentioned, and I absolutely love! The others, I will be checking out. Here's some other gems if it can help anyone; relaying certain videos of theirs, but they have many eye opening ones:

Been listening to these following guys for a minute (one video after another, can't get enough!):

1) Dr. Carmen Bryant 'Cutting Off Narcissistic Family Members' (I absolutely love what she brings);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GTAOAqLKzU

2) Jerry Wise Relationship Systems, '15 Assertive Rights As An Adult (Part 1 of 3)' (and he really does have wise advice);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6czGYDrLpCE


These next two guys I just started listening to, but was already very impressed:

3) Kyle Cease, 'The Darkness No Longer Has Control Of You'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_U2RdX9Cyk

4) Helen Saddler: Your Destiny Helper, 'Narcissist: Emotional Strangulation' (this is Dr. Carmen's mom; I see where she gets her talents from);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osmLAL-a2rE&t=4002s


I hope this can help contribute to the resource pool. I certainly have learned a lot concerning my own narc encounters from the FOO, romantic relationships, coworkers, neighbors and even strangers I meet and can detect within a few minutes. This last one I stated because it seems these days we step out of our house and there's a narc stranger telling you all their business (just happened to me this past week). At first, I was my usual friendly self and tried conversing with him, but then soon realized he was basically the one talking! From my lessons, I told myself to stop talking. Didn't cIick right away, but I'm getting better at it. And it's a judgement, yes, but I don't see that word as bad if we are looking to protect ourselves from people who are, or can potentially be, harmful. I am learning to just wish them well while staying far away, if possible!

By the way, I have been vacillating about calling/texting my FOO for the holidays, but at the moment I don't plan to (and definitely not visiting). I seem to have one issue though; it's my NPDM's birthday on Christmas. Add to the fact she is a senior, and it kind of sucks. But after how she has treated me time and again, my peace comes first. I may text at best, I just don't know yet. 

Stay blessed! 

[bee well]

Hi Lover of Peace,

It's good to read your post, thank you!!

Hello also to Kelleron, I hope all's as well as can be these days.

It's encouraging to know that things we are reading and learning in this process are coming through as we communicate in this forum (and hopefully, translating more and more into our external lives.)

From Victim to Victor--I love that! I'm going to put that in my diary of quotes and sayings/daily affirmations.

Tired and renewing sums it up very well. It's like a plant that matures, then dies, and drops some seeds, and comes up again. That seasonal metaphor appeared in some stuff I was reading recently (Can't remember where, maybe it was Jon Zabat Kinn?)

Thanks also for your support and the links to the material! I am looking forward to checking them out!

That's an extremely difficult situation you are in with your family, especially with your NPDM's birthday coming up. It sucks to say the least.

Excuse me if I appear to be stating the obvious, but it might be helpful to write it out, if you haven't already.  What are the possibile outcomes? Would might the reaction from the FOO be? Would you likely feel better or worse after any of these possibile outcomes? You might also consider how strong you are now vs. when you went no contact. Are you strong enough to absorb any eventual fallout? What might be the consequences down the line, if you were to re-establish contact?

This is something I have grappling with ALOT as some of my uN family of origin is aging and I expect I may receive messages about illness or death down the line.

Part of me knows that responding would be the human, compassionate thing to do...The other tells me that any communication from me would be taken from all of them as a cue to re-start the dysfunction and abuse. (Of course, after the initial honeymoon phase. History speaks for itself.)

There's also the cognitive dissonance re: the good/tender memories vs. the abuse. Ramani cautions us to avoid getting sucked back in by "euphoric recall." That piece of advice is really helpful to me when I start thinking about old times.

For now I have decided to be okay with the loose ends, and to cross that bridge if and when it comes. (I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't even notified about illness or death in the family. I'm just one less person to divide the "stuff" with. Sounds horrible, but that's how it works in my FOO system.)

Even after having the strength to deal with FOO, more of these issues keep coming up. (Maybe because we know more about what's happening?) Now that I am in NC other types in closer circles are putting me to the test with their boundary breaking,  Sometimes it feels like playing whack-a-mole. I heard someone say that somewhere and it describes it pretty well.

It's amazing how we see it everywhere once we get educated about it isn't it? I've also encountered this in my neighborhood. (People in stores, other places I frequent who seem to be all up in other peoples' business.) I don't know about you, but when I saw it before learning about it, I often thought, are these people off, they are way too invasive, or is it just me? I think it's because I was surrounded by it. Now that I am changing my life and seeing more kindness in action (like what happens here in the forum) I realize, no, this invasive type of data gathering is not a sign of healthy curiousity.

That's a good point about judgment. We have to  use our discernment to protect ourselves. I guess it's prejudice we have to watch out for. Trying not to project our own positive or negative feelings onto people before taking the time to assess the situation is a hard balancing act. I have been guilty of both at times.

Back to what you were saying about your aging family member--I agree 100%, it's  inner peace that matters most. I think if you continue to care for yourself and keep learning as you have been doing you will be more likely to come to a decision you can accept.

You can do it!...We can do it!

[Olive]

Hi Bee Well,
I am thankful my FOO went NC with me which forced me into a better place.  Breaking the chains is really hard because you don't have a background of healthy to build on and making good choices is filled with mistakes.  My mother will is 90 and will die soon and all I can think about that is, "I'm not going to the funeral."   It sounds petty and mean, but it's stuck in my head. 

I use a lot of formality in arranging my life.  It's rigid and how I keep boundaries.  My nature is, when predators see me, I treat them like a safety net.  I have no defenses and don't defend my children.  When my son was 9, I had to travel on the job in several states(long before the days of the internet).   I took him with me except one time when I asked my mother to watch him.  I called him every day and he said, "Grandma understands me but my cousin took my baseball glove."  I arranged for him to fly out and meet me, two weeks later, and when I opened his suitcase his clothes were caked in mud and roaches poured out.  My roommate said, "You've got to get him out of there."  My brother watched him for the rest of that trip.  When we got home my son's body began swelling with giant hives.  I took him to the doctors who suspected allergies.  Then his hair started falling out and when I looked at his scalp it was covered in puss.  He had ringworm.  My mother sent him to swim in the runoff from the refuge of about 100 pigs.  My alcoholic sister was living with her son in a tent in a nearby meadow with her 8-year-old son and it didn't register that this was not a safe place even for two weeks.  My son has had a lot of success but, this sort of thing strained our relationship and I'm happy to say we still speak about once a month.  I hope you are in a better place than I was. 

So yes, if your mother thinks her behavior deserves some sort of obligation and your family is more worried about her well-being than that you and your children maybe it's time to 'Run like your hair is on fire.'

[bee well]

Hi All,

Olive, It doesn't sound petty and mean.  The "petty and mean"  might be words that an unknowing outer critic, or critic in denial, or even one of our own inner critics, might say.

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place. It appears you've gained some very good tools for making better decisions...Whether you go to the funeral or not, it's really sad. But you know what happened. Only you can know what is right for your heart.

That's horrible what happened when you left your Son to be watched while you worked.. I'm sorry for everyone involved-- you, and especially your Son.

I'm glad to hear about your Son's success, and that you have some contact with him. That's good to hear.

Using a lot of formality is a key. I use it to manage a lot of situations that are in my life now. It feels artificial at times. It's a whole lot better that it was, for sure.

I can understand why you would want to "run like your hair is on fire." Who wouldn't if they were in that position? I've also read what you wrote on the "Welcome Mat." You should be proud of yourself for coming through so much.

I know the urge you describe well.  I've had and still have that urge at times, and at times it's hard to "turn off the fire alarm." It can get messier because people can make us feel like we are the problem for wanting to get away.  Feeling like it is our fault or "that's just the way all families are" is why so many of us stay for so long, right?

I'm feeling a bit anxious with all of the holidays coming up. I'm planning for self care, and speaking of the formality you had mentioned, that includes checking phone and email at structured times. (Kelleron mentioned that on another post, and it helps.)

I am also going to watch some of the stuff Lover of Peace recommended. Thanks, Lover of Peace.

[bee well]

p.s. In an earlier post on this thread I made a reference to  "Jon Zabat Kinn" Yikes! I mean to write Jon Kabat Zinn. Sorry for the confusion!   

[Olive]

Such great information and support in this thread.  I found a wonderful article on estrangement over the holidays in the Washington Post. 
"How to grieve estranged family and friends during the holidays "

[kelleron]

Hi everyone! Thank you so much for all your replies and insights. You guys are the most supportive and helpful group I've ever met when it comes to PD parents things! From the bottom of my heart, I am really grateful to have found you all here!

@Lover of Peace
Thank you for the lovely compliment and the great resources. I'll take a look when I feel strong enough. Thank you!!! 

@everyone

Christmas Update
Since writing this post, I've been going through a really tough couple of days. I confess I've not been very productive at all  I've been raging and crying at all the adults in my life - uBPDMom and the adults who didn't support or protect me. It has been HARD and I haven't got much sleep.

But I think it is worth it.

After processing all those feelings, I have decided not to go to the Christmas gathering, as @bee well suggested. Instead I'll be holding my own small Christmas party with the people who have my best interests at heart - my brother and maybe my friend and aunt! There'll be decorations, and we'll make lasagne and play some games. I think it sounds lovely and I'm so excited for it!

Christmas has always been one of my favourite holidays, and I want it to be full of love and safety. So if my FOO can't give me that right now, I'll just make a tradition of my own!


Forgiveness
I don't know about you guys, but I've been really angry and frustrated at my FOO for a long time. It's been 3 years since I last spoke to my mother, 1.5 since I moved out, and still I hated my mother and the adults for not protecting me. They victim blamed me instead. Nobody believed me, and even if they did, they still dismissed the validity of my suffering. It was so hard.

But I've been reading about what it feels like to have Borderline PD. One article described BPD to feel like an overwhelming feeling of emptiness. It was this fear of being abandoned and being alone that made them act so manipulatively and hurtfully.

I had social anxiety growing up. So I kinda know what loneliness and emptiness feels like. I only had to suffer 8 years of it, but according to my aunt my uBPDMom has been this way since she was a teenager. That means it has been 30+ years for her. I don't know what I could have become if I had to feel so low for so long. It doesn't help that in her generation, therapy was even more stigmatised. Also her siblings only enable her, leading to her symptoms becoming worse.

I don't know how or why, but I actually cried for her. I couldn't believe it myself, but I literally cried thinking about what she's gone through.

I don't know how, but I just don't feel angry at her as much now. Maybe it has been cut by 80% haha. I still am a little angry, of course. Even though she has been through a lot, she's an adult and adults' actions have consequences. The way she treated my brother and I was plain wrong. I will not forget how dangerous she can be. Though I am really really grateful to be alive, I still think it was irresponsible of her to even have kids in her state.

But still...I can't help feeling sorry for her.

I think this is the closest I  have been to fully forgiving her for what she has done. This has helped reduced the anger and rumination a lot. I feel like I can accept what happened as bad luck and unfairness of the universe. But even if I was dealt a bad hand by fate, I will make my own cards. I guess what I am saying is that I feel a lot more able to move forward with my life now.

Don't get me wrong, I'll not be contacting her for awhile. I am not strong enough and still have some healing to do. After all, I just came to this conclusion a few days ago haha. But my dream is that one day I'll be strong enough to help her while still protecting myself and my future family. It would really be a shame if she lived the rest of her 20-30 years on Earth with this miserable disorder, completely untreated.

Haha, I feel like I am saying a lot of lofty goals, even though I have only just felt a moment's peace. Oh well, I hope I'll get there someday!


I just want to thank everyone for their help. Even though I haven't been here long, the thoughtful and kind responses have made me feel less alone. Especially @bee well's words have reminded me of my autonomy and strength! I wish I could give you all a big hug! And I hope maybe somehow talking about all this has helped a little for you guys too  ~HUGS~



If you're interested, some of the posts about BPD I read are below. For some reason, I can't add hyperlinks! But I'm sure if you google these keywords you'll be able to find them

what bpd feels like by Rory Has BPD on Tumblr

LIFE IN A BIND – BPD AND ME on lifeinabind.com

What It's Like to Have Borderline Personality Disorder by Patrick Marlborough on VICE

[bee well]

Hi Kelleron,

You're welcome.

Wow! I should say thank you as well. I'm touched by your response. You kindness really comes through, and I'm so happy to read it. Especially the parts about you working through your anger and grief. Reading and writing really does help a lot.

Sorry you had a tough few days. It looks like the the crying brought you some relief. I think crying is underrated when it come to stress relief. I hope you got some sleep too.

It sounds like you are doing much better now, and have found a solution that works for you. Forgive me if I emphasize here that when I wrote about your not going, it wasn't a suggestion not to go-- I just thought it was important to bring up the idea of choice, and I'm glad you feel good about your choice.

It's great that you are feeling more autonomous and strong. Knowing what you need and taking the steps to give it to yourself is so empowering. You go!

Making a new tradition, aside from helping you feel more in touch, could be a lot of fun too. A new adventure...

it's a good thing that you feel so much compassion for your Mom, and that you are making an effort to see things from her view and educate yourself about the circumstances so you can untangle things. That's not easy to do. I'd wager all of this will be a big help to you if you ever do decide to have kids of your own.

You never know where the both of you will be down the line. No contact doesn't have to be forever,  although some of us feel we have no other viable option.

I have my own issues around anger and forgiveness. I'm a recovering people pleaser too. I didn't even realize it 'til recently, when I went NC, and I'm in middle age. Go figure. Now I'm dealing with stuff that goes pretty much back to my beginning. I've accepted it'll be a life long process.

Forgiveness is so personal, but it's so valued that a lot of us feel pressure to forgive. I think we each need to define it for ourselves.

Some things I may not forgive my Mother for but I will always love her and have compassion for her, even if I am still angry at times.  I know why she struggled the way she did but she was lucid a lot of the time. I'm sorry for her, but that doesn't excuse all of her behaviour. It's a hard balancing act being compassionately angry. Maybe forgiveness will come.

My Mother is no longer with me but I believe she would understand why I decided to go NC. (I became very close to FOO after she passed, many years later went NC with them and was blindsided when I realized 99.9 that FOO is an N family system. Discovering that about FOO helped me to have more compassion for Mom and her pain.)

Thanks very much for the info and also to Olive for the article. Lots of new info to chew on...:=)..Hi Olive...! Hi Lover of Peace! Hi anyone else who might come in reading :=)

A big hug back to you, Kelleron.

Bye for now...

[LoverofPeace]

Happy Peace Givings Everyone,

Where to begin? There's so much scrumptious information that helps coming from experiences, questions, advice and resources that I don't know where to start! This goes to show how someone, Kelleron in this case, can share her experience, albeit not a good one; yet, good still comes out of it because not only did you say this forum and site is helping you, but it's helping all of us too. Glad I clicked and came here!

I just want to break down some latest highlights to me:

Bee Well

From Victim to Victor--I love that! I'm going to put that in my diary of quotes and sayings/daily affirmations.

Yes, indeed. Except I don't think of it as 'from victims...', but more as 'not victims, but victors!' Though, that may be some of the N (healthy amount) or pride in me. Sometimes I feel victimized but, possibly to my detriment because it may be denial, I cannot stand identifying as a victim. So, I tend to negate the victim part and just declare myself as a victor! I am realizing this is one of my defense mechanisms against the FOO.

That's an extremely difficult situation you are in with your family, especially with your NPDM's birthday coming up. It sucks to say the least.

It does suck, but I also don't like being forced or phony. This is what it's like growing up with N's around us, so I hate wasting another mintue of it! Especially, because I was so in the fog before and now emerging from it, I am highly insulted that is what I was dealing with and not sincerity. It's not even spite, as the Nmom would like to say or think (whatever). So, just like today, I don't think I'm getting in touch for a change. NC is NC. I already tried the part-time communication and received the same aggravating results (anyone surprised?  ).

Excuse me if I appear to be stating the obvious, but it might be helpful to write it out, if you haven't already.  What are the possibile outcomes? Would might the reaction from the FOO be? Would you likely feel better or worse after any of these possibile outcomes? You might also consider how strong you are now vs. when you went no contact. Are you strong enough to absorb any eventual fallout? What might be the consequences down the line, if you were to re-establish contact?

Perfectly stated what I have been going over in my mind. Even though I consider myself a writer, I have still yet to write my thoughts (which I will, time management is something I've been struggling with-this may have to do with not growing up with but so much structure). But I have been thinking strongly on these questions you posed, even up until this Thanksgiving day. I decided just last night that I will not be calling or texting. This is thanks to these posts and those videos I've been watching concerning N's, especially the FOO. Oddly, I kept searching for the specific subject about going no contact with them during the holidays, and it seems there are not too many like that. For a subject that has mucho, mucho videos on how to deal with N's, this one falls short, so I was somewhat disappointed. There may be mention of it within an N video or how to deal with them during the holidays, but not enough of deciding to go NC during these times. I feel I needed to mention this because I believe a lot of us out there are feeling some angst in not completely knowing how to handle this. I think it's a big one, with holidays coming and going throughout the years. Meaning, as soon as we feel in a place of more peace and healing but still not 'there' yet, here comes one of these holidays that we know could be a big opportunity for them to use as a hoover. Not cool at all. There should be something like; 'How to Keep Going NC When the N Family Tries to Contact You During the Holidays', or such. Although Jerry Wise may have his own take on it about BEING in contact in order to heal and truly not let it affect us. While I love his work, that particular point-of-view I will have to skip, because I've actually been physically attacked by the Nsis. I defended myself well, but not trying to revisit that as I'm no fool. To be fair, Jerry also did mention that would be a different story under those circumstances. I've been dealing with this Nsis since 11 (I now realize why at this point) and she is a big reason why I won't go near them, as they treat her as the Golden Child = justifying everything she does--especially the Nmom--even to an outrageous point like the attack!

Ramani cautions us to avoid getting sucked back in by "euphoric recall."

I love this phrase and will look to remember it! I was thinking about this too, as I would tell myself that my upbringing wasn't the worse: my mother kept a roof over our heads, she would listen at times, we had many laughs, etc. What nagged me as a child as to where it goes wrong and I finally realized as a mature adult comes down to two words about my mother, 'sabotage' and 'reckless'; I'm sure you guys can relate here. Therefore, over time it killed me slowly over the things she'd turn around and do. The last time it killed me is when she sided with the Nsis even though she attacked me. So, I can't afford to do a 'euphoric recall', no ma'am! Thank you for sharing this!

This is something I have grappling with ALOT as some of my uN family of origin is aging and I expect I may receive messages about illness or death down the line.

Yes! I fear this happening. I am not only thinking about these holidays and NC, but even worse is if there is a funeral. I hate to sound cold, but I will say at one time I planned to be there no matter what. How things have since changed now that my eyes are more open about my FOO. It's even hard to type about them now because it feels like a betrayal (the old guild trip), but I was there for them to a fault! So, to say now I dread hearing about a funeral because of NC, is to read this from a person who has to think about her well-being if I am to truly choose to live peacefully. This one is a basic black and white matter too; either we go, or we don't. My thoughts on it is to say I'd rather not come to the ceremony (but not say why to avoid JADEing) and that I would be visiting their grave on my own to pay my respects. Of course, this wouldn't be accepted anyway. Imagine them just saying, 'Okay, we wish you'd be present, but we do respect your wishes'. 

Kelleron

Since writing this post, I've been going through a really tough couple of days. I confess I've not been very productive at all    I've been raging and crying at all the adults in my life - uBPDMom and the adults who didn't support or protect me. It has been HARD and I haven't got much sleep.

I have raged on them so many times over the years and sometimes I wonder if that was good or bad? But then I ultimately believe it was good because: 1) I believe giving it back to the source rather than hold it in and harm yourself is better, albeit the delivery is what needs work and 2) making sure not to take it out on someone else (though we're not always perfect). Though we may be talking about our elders, I believe we're not raging to who we see on the outside, but that lost child of theirs on the inside. Don't blame yourself for this, as if you don't get it out you can end up with possible illnesses, both physically and mentally are at stake. I used to wonder how my blood pressure was reported as normal when getting a checkup at the doctor's office throughout the years. And also because my family has a history of high blood pressure. Then I read how exercising our anger (in a healthy manner of course) was good for us and not detrimental as they like to believe in society. Thus, the last time the medical assistant reported my blood pressure as good, I wasn't surprised anymore! The venting is what helped to keep it that way. If I had held all of that in, it probably would be through the roof by now. Or worse, I could be six feet under! No bueno!

The only thing I will add here is that going forward to look to rage on things instead of them. Two great reasons for this: 1) A thing is much safer and you don't have to end up feeling mentally exhausted from the yelling and guilty feelings, i.e., I use exercise equipment; it works wonders in expelling that negative energy! 2) As I'm sure we know, N's love your rage; this is how they get their supply. Don't do it to yourself, because they'll keep coming back for more!


Forgiveness

I don't know about you guys, but I've been really angry and frustrated at my FOO for a long time. It's been 3 years since I last spoke to my mother, 1.5 since I moved out, and still I hated my mother and the adults for not protecting me. They victim blamed me instead. Nobody believed me, and even if they did, they still dismissed the validity of my suffering. It was so hard.

Boy, do I understand! I mention in this post how my mother sided with my sister even after being physically attacked; it's all warped how she is speaking on it. I felt and feel to this day when it comes to them: unprotected, blamed and the scapegoat role (of course). But that is their issue, not mine. I like what Jerry Wise so calmly says about the Family System, one of his terms he uses: "You stay on your side of the tennis court and I'll stay on mine."

I think the word 'forgiveness' needs to be scrapped because it's overdone and not even embraced by a lot of us. It feels like a misnomer. I have been feeling, whenever I listen to these motivational videos, audios or readings and hear/see this as a part of healing, that I need to replace this word with something else to help me avoid rolling my eyes, lol. I am going to use, "Pray for them". Anyone else could do the same; whatever word(s) works for you!

Olive


I am thankful my FOO went NC with me which forced me into a better place.  Breaking the chains is really hard because you don't have a background of healthy to build on and making good choices is filled with mistakes.  My mother will is 90 and will die soon and all I can think about that is, "I'm not going to the funeral."   It sounds petty and mean, but it's stuck in my head.

I just love how you laid it out there. Good for you, not everyone can tap in like that! I feel you on that it can be hard not to make mistakes when you don't have a healthy background. I will say I had some structure growing up, no doubt, but when I began seeing how other households were I realized things like not having a curfew wasn't too common, lol. Thank goodness I was disciplined enough on the strength of myself and some other family members. But things like time management is hard for me to this day and, though a lot of people do struggle with it, I believe my upbringing has something to do with that. Keep going, make your mistakes, dust yourself off and try again with a clearer direction. It does help to write things down, as Bee Well stated. How many times have I written schedules alone and not adhered to it? Getting there! 😊

My son has had a lot of success but, this sort of thing strained our relationship and I'm happy to say we still speak about once a month. 

You have both been through a lot and I am just glad you are in touch! I believe being humble and hearing him out are great attributes to building and hopefully healing over time. It sounds like you are already doing positive things. Many blessings!




I know this was longwinded; I don't expect every word to be read. Honestly, it was cathartic to do while I'm over here eating my 'God Giving' meal. 😊

Thank you for this. Glad to be a part of this thread, even though I hate any of us have to go through this kind of crazy stuff.



Praying we stay safe and blessed! 

[Olive]

Bee Well, LoverofPeace,  Thank you for the feedback.  I am usually too ashamed of myself to discuss the complexities of mental illness in my family and my own social anxiety. I wonder if it just makes people feel bad and I know there have been lots of times I feel ill when I think of these things or like working on myself, especially if I have contact with my FOO. 

Kelleron, I think we need to go through these stages of crying, rage, distance, and loneliness to create our own personal identity and choose who we are.  We surround ourselves with people we respect, people who respect boundaries and let our wounds heal.  The anger subsides into analysis and recognizing the malleable nature of human personality.  There is little that makes sense, only a question, "What version of yourself are you today?" More importantly, I fully participate in the life I choose. 

I spent years studying my family history in an effort to feel more grounded.  My childhood memories were more like bomb flashes and psychologists called that 'excess baggage', like you could easily toss it out. I mapped out my age when stuff happened, poured through old letters and memoirs, and studied tons of books on histories pertaining to their era.  I needed to turn my monsters into 3-dimensional characters with human flaws and even noble aspirations.  They did not look so different from kids today who have difficult families and unreasonable social expectations. 

I took my mother on several vacation trips when she was in her 80's.  Armed with lots of history, I went to great lengths to ensure everything was in her comfort level and there was lots of busy activity to fill the lull in conversation (we went on a cross-country trip).  It was interesting on several levels.  It was 2009 and the economy had just collapsed leaving city after city with freshly renovated centers and miles of boarded-up storefronts. How would this affect the future?  The small things were, realizing how much we shared a fondness for the same foods, gardening, healthy habits, and music.  It didn't make me feel like she was any less of a bone-chilling sociopath. I thought about the boundaries of what role I could play by being a decent person for an aging mentally ill family.  It was fun, but as expected, she eventually plowed through every barrier, and being in the loop for her care means having good armor from slings and arrows.  Some little part of me still thought that I was capable of doing or being someone she respected, but a sociopath measures the world on a value system of predatory assault.  When I was healing those close to me in my chosen life, saw it as a weakness because I cried easily, I was withdrawn, and not a part of their culture.  Thankfully, healing comes with owning your choices and the puzzle of mental illness becomes a question of what we can do better as a person and as a society.  If you allow yourself to grow and land in a good place, life will take care of the rest.

I like to go for a walk at dawn.  It makes me feel grounded in what life is intended to be by a living consciousness.  My FOO are anti-social and not afraid of criminal behavior, although they only hurt someone they know.  I suspect this is what inspired me to always keep my head low and rehashing these things has given me an understanding of people who did step in.  My teacher, who bailed me out of jail when I had no idea what a bail was and never paid her back.  The people who wanted to take me in as a teenager and a young woman.  I couldn't do that because I was afraid I would do something wrong and lose their friendship.  Only now can I understand why my aunt cried when I told her I wanted to go back to my FOO when I was 14.  These people may not have realized it at the time but they profoundly change my life.  Gradually I have become more aware of how much people tolerated.

[LoverofPeace]

Thank you for this insight, Olive. You don't only seem to talk the talk, you actually walk the walk by going deep in exploring your FOO's origins; including taking a cross country trip with your mom to find and understand the nature of your symbiotic relationship. I mean, how many of us are even courageous enough to take that kind of time with a narcissist, not to mention an elder one! It takes time, patience, finances, etc. in order to take this physical, mental and emotional journey. I don't know if I could do all of that with mine because, as you stated, you can have a good time with them, for sure. But then they always find a way to jack it all up: "It was fun, but as expected, she eventually plowed through every barrier, and being in the loop for her care means having good armor from slings and arrows". Yup! You said it so eloquently well. 

Keep trekking strong right along without her and them, if needed. You seem to already have done everything deemed possible to help heal where they're concerned. Now you deserve your individual healing. 

God bless us on the N journey to self-discovery. This is what it's ultimately about. 

[bee well]

Hi All,

I just thought I'd come in and say hi!

Where to begin...so many very meaningful things written around here. Forgive me if I repeat any of what I've said in earlier posts.

When we are in NC I think dealing with Death and grief after we leave is one the most difficult things we have to get our heads around.

What stands out here is that there is no one way to do it, but that we can better come to terms with it when we feel we have done the best we could.

Lover of Peace.

I'm onboard with forgiveness as we know it being scrapped.  I have gone the road of premature forgiveness and it caused a lot of harm. I mistakenly picked up where I left off without any apology or any discussion about some very serious transgressions, because I felt I was being grudgeful and mean to hold on to things after many years. The others in the family were also pressuring me to get over it ("Onward and upward" they would say. yet they alternated that with stoking the flames. So confusing.)  I put myself through more heartache because of it (premature forgiveness felt almost worse than being angry-- and it was taken as a cue for more gaslighting and manipulation.  That's part of what led to the realization I could not patch things up with FOO. So yeah, forgiveness is overrated.

About victimhood, most of us were victims through no volition of our own, but once we realize what happened (if it wasn't clear already) the best thing we can do is take victim out of the equation so we can move towards victory, or thriving, however we define it.

Olive,
I so know what you mean about the shame. We can know in our hearts that mental illness in the family is not any of our doing, and still not feel comfortable talking about it. There's a lot of talk about mental illness in the media, and people coming out which is great but unfortunately the stigma is there and we have to be cautious about sharing. That's one of the reasons I love this place so much. People can share here without feeling judged, and verbalizing it helps to take away the shame.

I love that you have studied your history and gotten to know what led your family to where it is now. Breaking that generational cycle takes a lot of courage and strength.

The trip with your Mom led where you expected it to but I see it as a sort of a resolution, because it appears you were able to see your Mom as a 3dimensional character, like you did with your family members before her. Seeing things that way, I think, helps us have compassion for people we may never forgive. (whatever forgiveness happens to mean for us, there's that F word again!)

Walks at dawn, what a wonderful way to clear your thoughts as you ease into the day....

[Olive]

I have gone the road of premature forgiveness and it caused a lot of harm. I mistakenly picked up where I left off without any apology or any discussion about some very serious transgressions,

I was raised Evangelical where forgiveness means you should apologize for your negative attitude.  I collapsed and lost consciousness from a twisted ovary when I was 13, when I awoke from surgery Mom told me God was punishing me for my negative thoughts. I recall one passage in Norman Peale's "The Power of Positive Thinking" was, "Do you have a good mother?"  Likewise Dale Carnegie's, "Stop Worrying and Start Living" championed a mother who attempted to kill herself and her children and at the last minute changed her mind and became an opera singer.  Even today,

Brene Brown tells a story of a friend who has shaken her toddler, and as the toddler becomes more terrified, the mother feels more powerful.  Brene instructs us: Empathy requires me to go to that dark, terrible place where I understand the capacity for that. She responds, "I get it".  In the state of Texas... the attorney general instructs us to report child abuse. At the very least, the complex problems of dealing with children during a mental breakdown deserve more from a doctor of social welfare.

I could find tons of examples of how entrenched we are in the magical thinking that mental illness will pass. 

I don't want to punish the mentally ill but they need more supervision and it sure would help if we weren't leaving it up to small children or their wounded victims. to do this.

Family history has been very therapeutic for me on a number of levels.  It was an introduction to the adult world, where I was a high school dropout. People like using historical fragments to create a fantasy and it can be very painful to take in the reality.  The part of my family I never met was pro-slavery, but I wanted to put that in the past and justify a cultural history that was similar to the European peasant revolutions.  So what!  When I first began studying black history, it was very painful to understand how much of our history still plays out so long after the war.  I feel so brainwashed in a doctrine that I know is simply untrue.  One of my father's aunts rearranged the family graveyard and ordered new headstones to match her version of history.  At best it is enlightening to understand the lies, crimes, and backward social attitudes that exist about our own families, including the things you could take pride in but weren't told because they didn't match the narrative.

I needed the family timeline because my own memory was so fractured.  It gave me sort of a storyline I could trust.  In my extended family, intentionally fabricating myths is an art, and they also care how it plays out for others. Shooting down the lies explains a lot.

[bee well]

Hi Olive,

It's amazing the stories and magical thinking that is used to convince that "things will pass."

I absolutely agree that those who are mentally ill and need the help should be closely supervised to protect little children and anyone else who might be in harms way. Certainly, those with vulnerabilities should not have to shoulder those responsibilities, thos it happens far to often.

Creating a timeline is an awesome way to claim your history and your truth, in a concrete way. Most of us know our histories as fragments of stories different relatives tell us over the years, and sometimes the memories, often conditioned by the story tellers' points of view, fade or cannot be verified. It must feel good to have done that.