Sister mostly ignores me, then asks me to lie.

[nanotech]

She's a flying monkey and an enabling sister.  About two years ago I suddenly realised I was just fawning. It was both pathetic and pointless. I wanted a deeper relationship with at least one of my siblings.

I invited her on holiday, my treat.
Big fat no.
I asked her to see a show with me.
Big fat no.
I invited her to our house, millions of times.
Big fat no.
I tried for a long time.
Lots of very very big fat and solid nos. Mostly in the form of abrupt one or two word texts.
Sigh.

So I suddenly stopped it all. I dropped the rope.
I ceased making all the running in our relationship.
What relationship?
So why had I persisted for so long?
At times there had been glimmers of hope that she might join me Out of the FOG. Are all, she'd  been though the mill too.
But no. My efforts to improve and/ or even maintain a relationship with her, seemed only to irritate her.
I was regularly ignored and knocked back. My long self disclosing texts would  be ignored and/ or hardly be acknowledged.
It was hardly ever face to face dismissals of me, but I felt them physically.
I had  thought our lack of a connection as children had been due to the age difference. I'm older by a number of years. I always put it down to that.
But then I saw how that just didn't apply to two of my own children, the age gap was bigger, and yet they were  so close and loving. ( still are!)
  So I though maybe I could fix that with my sister. I'd suggest days out.  When I was financially flush, I offered to to pay for a holiday together.
She answered that she was not family minded, so she didn't want to.
The one time I got into her house for a cup of tea ( 2nd time ever in about 25 years) I realised later and with some sadness,  that it was because UNPDGC BROTHER  had enlisted her a task.Her mission was to charm me into taking UNPDdad into my home to live. PERMANENTLY!  UNPDdad was also complicit in this. We had  just moved to a new house, and the first thing UNPDDAD did was " jokingly " pick out his bedroom. There followed a hellish campaign for my territory.

It would have benefitted all of them.

Big fat fail. I didn't fall for it.  I'd done too much work on myself to have my buttons pressed, thank goodness.
In the end, they  were far too obvious.

As soon as they realised, it was straight back to the BIG FAT DISCARD. 

As a way of life, Ensis dutifully and regularly kept me at arms length, out of habit, and in order to placate the other two siblings, who are both UNPD.
There's so much unwritten convention in our family. A lot of it is related to transactions.
Yet we are all meant to follow it all, and simultaneously not mention that it exists.
They all do it.They all gaslight each other, and themselves too. It's too too weird.
So as a rule, I am discarded and devalued.

Until I am useful. 

Enabliing sister has intermittently  used me as a referee for jobs she applies for. It's the one time I get texts that are more than one word long, or just a squeezed out emoji. It's the one time she will initiate a text to me. But it's not very often.
So these days, it's radio  silence for months ( because now I don't initiate).
Then suddenly-  three paragraphs about her job application! She has a pattern where she will apply for a job, get it and it lasts three weeks. By the third week she's always very indignant that the job isn't as was described at interview. She doesn't get that most jobs will often differ from the glossy promoted version they give you at interview. So she leaves, sometimes with the threat that she is going to report them to the authorities for 'not following rules'. This has happened several times, with several Jobs. They tend to be short lived interludes in her life. She gets unhappy, and she votes with her feet. Then I usually get a phone call from UNPDdad, who is just as indignant and angry about the 'unprofessional' nature of this company or organisation.

My UNPDsister was has also followed this pattern with jobs and work.  One time she began an office job only to tell all of the staff ( her second day) that  many times employment rules were being flouted,  and they were being taken advantage of by the management. Of course the staff TOLD management. She was let go after a week. She may well have been right, but there's no flexibility there at all, no sense of pragmatism. They are so black and white and they believe that the rest of the world must be too. When they come across grey, they get mad.

In the past I would respond immediately to reference requests. I'd be more than helpful.Yep, I was seeking approval. I was thinking that finally I was getting close to my family. Only to be dropped again, after the need had been met.

The second to last time, enabling sis had gone weeks and weeks without making contact with me. She's never been to my house despite constant past invites. We've been here for over 5 years now.
Then suddenly, a massive long text about a job application she had made, demanding my immediate reply. She   had put me down as a referee,and I must check my emails in case they sent me a form!  This text didn't first say hi or ask me how I was or how the family were.

So I messaged her back , " I'm fine thanks! How are you and hubby? Yes don't worry that's OK about the reference".

The latest request though, has been the worst. Again, radio silence for ages. The quietest ever.
Then suddenly today, a HUGE  text with literally no full stops, just a stream of consciousness containing all these demands about a job and a reference that I must provide.
Then, when I was thinking what to do and  I didn't answer straight away, another two  unpunctuated and demanding texts
She basically wanted me to tell a lot of porky pies, and, and I just wasn't comfortable. There was a total assumption that I WOULD tell them, which was galling.  Her only concern was that I must understand what, when and how to tell them.

She said not to panic,  that she would tell me, word for word, what to put in the reference, and that I had to say that we are NOT family, just friends. She then told me that I needed to lie quite specifically about what she'd been doing in the last few years, job wise.

The third text was just a demand for my email address and my confirmation that I would agree to do it. She had my email,and she asked me to check it. I could see it was missing a letter. My UNPD dad has twice tried to send me an email, using this incorrect address, then blamed me for not reading an email I never got. Twice  I've corrected him. Clearly my sister has asked my DAD for my email, not me.
This is how messed up it all is.

These are texts from someone who due to her own actions and reactions, both historic and recent.  I currently have NO real relationship with.

It's so warped.
I'm discarded, yet when they need it, they expect SUDDEN sisterly loyalty from me, to the extent where I'm meant to completely compromise my integrity.

Sugar to that.

I simply couldn't imagine asking the same of her. I actually don't think I'd ever speak to anyone that way.

Well, I told her that I AM family, and so I can't give her the reference. Oh the irony.

A Curt reply, a Curt thanks, ( sarcastic?) then off she went.

I felt a bit mean. She needs a job. But I'm not lying.

If you've made it this far, thank you!
Did anyone else have similar experiences? And did you take a long time to realise it too?  How it wasn't normal?

[notrightinthehead]

I am sorry your family treats you so badly. You deserve respect and politeness, like everybody else.
How do you feel when you realize they are just using you? How do you feel when you give in to their demands in spite of your better judgement?
I am so glad that you have decided not to compromise your integrity and lie for your sister.  Especially since she does not want to have anything to do with you until she needs a favour.  She probably has other people to ask and you drop down the list.
How painful to know how they are and only more reasons to treat yourself with kindness.

[nanotech]

Thanks so much not right in the head. You sent me some much needed care and compassion.
I woke  up feeling so mean and nasty.
While I was writing last night,  unbeknown to me she had messaged me to say she had had to spend an hour redoing her application.
I felt bad when I read that.
Yet I know that had I agreed, I would have disliked myself and all of the old feelings would have  hit me like a tun of bricks. I sided stepped a lorry load!

Hubby has told me that he thinks I'm probably overreacting. I should help my sis find work. ( See the book, ' But it's your family!')
He's very loving,usually supportive,  but he hasn't grown up with conditions, gaslighting, shaming etc.
Also, his sister is ill right now, so .......

I'm all over the place this morning. I can see a lot of anger in my post. When I read  it back  last night, I thought it was so self indulgent and mean.
I didn't express anger with my sister, so I guess I channeled it though my post. Better than reacting to her, I think.
Feeling bad for ranting to friends though. Sigh.

In the past, I've often felt like the little red hen in the children's story. No help no help no help then they all wanna eat the bread. I felt this again when I saw her requests pop up.
But I'm trying for self compassion, rather than self pity.

I've messaged her this morning, suggesting she could perhaps try a health professional, that I've been out of the workplace for quite a long time and I'm near retirement age. I'm no longer sure a reference from me would even hold water. I'm trying to encourage her to be honest about her work gaps, rather than trying to fill them with weird and wonderful pretend occupations.
This is very true. I think she has an inflated view of my influence on prospective employers. Again the b/W thinking.
No reply so far. Not surprising. She's wary of technology to the point of paranoia, blue light in particular, so she has her phone switched off a lot. ( think 'Better Call Saul' - she's a bit like the brother!)

She's not a bad person. I'm not so sure she has anyone else to ask. She lives like a hermit. She lives with her husband,  but they kind of live separately. She's very socially awkward, doesn't like crowds, doesn't venture out much. She has her cat.  She wouldn't look for work if she wasn't on such a low income.

I've reached out to her so many times. There was some hope for us two.
I always feel as if I can't trust myself  to make the right decisions.

It's these misconceptions she has about the workplace. She did pass a degree ( distance learning) a few years ago.  She was over the moon. I asked her what her plans were for entering the workplace, and she said she was going to straightaway apply for posts 'in middle management'.  That was a term used in the 70s and 80s. This was the late 90s. By then, entering at management level on the strength of a qualification was no longer happening. I wasn't sure what to say. Any advice to the apply at entry level and work her way up would have been interpreted as meanness and jealousy. So in trying for the moon, she missed the stars. Not willing to take an ordinary office job ,She ended up doing menial work.

Because of her chronic illness, which blighted her education, she has never worked all that much ,Andres often had to be menial work. She's  had never had  a professional post. I think she was following my dad's advice,  that a degree would gain you instant access to ' being in charge'.This was true 30 or maybe 40 years ago.
She hadn't done her own research, just followed the black and white thinking.

I'm sorry for her. I believe her chronic illness came about because of the family dysfunction. Yet despite the number of times I've tried to help and truly be there for her, she has backed away into the shadows of it.
She won't get out now. It's just sad.

[Olive]

Hi nanotech,

I'm sorry these things are so complicated and intimate.  The right thing to do is elusive.  It sounds like your sister genuinely tries to participate in society as an adult but is quickly beaten back by her own social anxiety.  I have watched this many times with my own sister and wished things could be better and wondered what could I do that was doable.  Mostly, every one of them has a covert agenda they would like to rope me into.  Although I am deeply aware of their mental illnesses, I keep thinking there is a safe distance so I can text my sister and she won't feel so alone in her complete withdrawal and severe physical disability from arthritis.  It's a sadder road when the concern for well-being only goes one way and 'you're the mark.

My husband tells me, "What you tell me, stays between you and me."   He discourages the amount of contact I do have because he's afraid they will try to move in with us, and they have.  I've told them I will call the police, but that didn't stop my sister from changing her address to mine (3000 miles away), ordering online medication and shipping it here, then showing up and threatening to sue me because she fell down on my sidewalk.  Oh, that's only the beginning.  My brother's solution to an aging relative is to put a bed in the garage.  He lives in a very cold area so, they come, and eventually prefer the nursing home.  It's a learning process.

[nanotech]

Hi nanotech,

I'm sorry these things are so complicated and intimate.  The right thing to do is elusive.  It sounds like your sister genuinely tries to participate in society as an adult but is quickly beaten back by her own social anxiety.  I have watched this many times with my own sister and wished things could be better and wondered what could I do that was doable.  Mostly, every one of them has a covert agenda they would like to rope me into.  Although I am deeply aware of their mental illnesses, I keep thinking there is a safe distance so I can text my sister and she won't feel so alone in her complete withdrawal and severe physical disability from arthritis.  It's a sadder road when the concern for well-being only goes one way and 'you're the mark.

My husband tells me, "What you tell me, stays between you and me."   He discourages the amount of contact I do have because he's afraid they will try to move in with us, and they have.  I've told them I will call the police, but that didn't stop my sister from changing her address to mine (3000 miles away), ordering online medication and shipping it here, then showing up and threatening to sue me because she fell down on my sidewalk.  Oh, that's only the beginning.  My brother's solution to an aging relative is to put a bed in the garage.  He lives in a very cold area so, they come, and eventually prefer the nursing home.  It's a learning process.

OMG Olive,  I'm so sorry you've been through all that with your sister turning up like that.
Your husbands's words are very wise. You have your rock. I do too with mine.
For me, there was never such a thing, in my FOO, as confidentiality. I could never tell my mum or older sister, anything in confidence. But I was expected to be a shoulder and a confidant.
It's why I've gone NC or LC and I have them now, on an information diet.
What you've written about their social anxiety, and how despite their efforts it ultimately constrains and imprisons them, went straight to my heart. It is sad. I think that's why they try to reach out, but because of the old patterns and their now ground in habits, there's a
always failure to communicate. I feel as if I've never ever had a deep, heart to heart talk with my little sister. I'm not sure she knows how.

[Olive]

Nanotech, 
Thank you for your kind words and thoughtful insights.

My sister is very cripple and delusional. She has periods of lucid thought and it has been helpful to learn about her life and perspective because we were separated as teens, I keep my distance.  Boundaries are everything.  There is nothing I can do to improve their lives, and my communications are on the level of what you might say to someone in an institution.  A good day is when she isn't raging, but they are always physically far away.

It sounds like your sister reaches out to you in a more adult way than mine, but that is because you have created that boundary.  It's a fantasy, but not a bad one and she may not be emotionally able to discuss anything.  I suspect this is a safety for her.

[nanotech]

Nanotech, 
Thank you for your kind words and thoughtful insights.

My sister is very cripple and delusional. She has periods of lucid thought and it has been helpful to learn about her life and perspective because we were separated as teens, I keep my distance.  Boundaries are everything.  There is nothing I can do to improve their lives, and my communications are on the level of what you might say to someone in an institution.  A good day is when she isn't raging, but they are always physically far away.

It sounds like your sister reaches out to you in a more adult way than mine, but that is because you have created that boundary.  It's a fantasy, but not a bad one and she may not be emotionally able to discuss anything.  I suspect this is a safety for her.

Thanks so much Olive. Yes what you say about my sister is likely true. You've helped me understand her better.
It's the older Nsister who could  often be extremely passive aggressive, and she would sometimes rage. What she most liked, after a rage, was discarding.
I would always make the first move to reconnect, but about five years ago I woke up to this repeating pattern. So the last time she raged and tantrummed and dramatically ghosted me ( mid conversation) I just blocked her on social media.
I had tried to talk to her about boundaries. One of the last things she said to me online, was that she didn't 'get' boundaries.
That made it clear to me that she was always going to disrespect them. It was a turning point for me.
Since then,I've seen her one time at a funeral, and I just medium chilled. It was fine. Boundaries have worked for me. Yes, they hate them, and I'm sure she's told people how awful I am to her, but hey I realised she was saying that anyway!
My enabling sis HAS found another person for a reference, so it's okay. I pointed out to her that I can always give her a general character reference, but if she's wanting professional endorsement ,then someone currently in work will be  much better for her. 

[Blodyn]

Hi Nanotech,

I was stunned to read your story because it is almost identical to mine.  I have a younger sister, quite a few years younger than me (uNPD).  It's taken me until I'm nearly 60 to realise our relationship was always one sided, from me to her, me always giving, and she always taking.

I've been discarded for years on end only for her to turn up again, switching on the charm and hoovering me back in again.  The last time she discarded me was over a job reference.  She didn't call me to discuss the request, she simply sent a text asking if I would give her a reference for a new job she was applying for.  I called her because I needed to clarify what type of reference.  I couldn't give her a job reference because I've never employed her or worked with her.  Our career choices were completely different.  But I could provide a character reference and I wanted to check that she would be ok with that.

This is when it all began to unravel.  She began by saying that her prospective employer could only accept one character reference from a relative, and that our older brother was providing that.  So when I explained that a character reference was the only kind I could give she exploded in rage.  She screamed at me.  I tried to get her to calm down.  I suggested she got a reference from her previous employer in Australia.  She said she couldn't because she'd told him to 'fx!k off when she quit the job.  So then I suggested she got one of her former colleagues to provide a character reference.  She said it would take too long for the reference to get from Australia to the U.K.   I said, 'not by email it wouldn't.'   Then she said it was too late and that I'd have to provide a reference because she'd already given  the employer my personal details.  This is when I began to realise she'd set me up.

I realised that her original text request for a reference was not a request, just something designed to look like a request.  She'd already assumed she could use me in this way.  I insisted on knowing what she had told this employer about the nature of our relationship.  She had failed to tell the employer that we were related.  She'd told them that she'd worked for me for 6 months (a big lie).

When I told her I couldn't help her because this lie was an act of fraud, which in this country is a criminal offence; she responded with, 'it's only a crime if we get caught.'  The use of the royal we did not escape my notice.

I told her I couldn't help her and suggested she returned to one of her former colleagues and obtained a character reference.  This is when she exploded, called me every name under the sun, screamed that I never help her (completely untrue), slammed down the phone and discarded me.  She then went on a smear campaign turning my narcissistic family against me (didn't take much effort to do that!).

That was nearly 10 years ago.  Haven't heard from her or my family since.

My beloved husband died 7 years ago.  I got a message to her.  I was trying to reach out, hoping that such a tragic circumstance would bring out some empathy.  What a waste of time.  I got nothing from my family.  No words of condolence, no sympathy, no support, just silence.

I've learned to accept that the final blow has been struck and that there is no going back.  If she tries to return to me again I will not allow her back in my life.  Don't get me wrong, I'll be polite, civilised, and respectful, but that's all she'll get from me.

[nanotech]

Hi Nanotech,

I was stunned to read your story because it is almost identical to mine.  I have a younger sister, quite a few years younger than me (uNPD).  It's taken me until I'm nearly 60 to realise our relationship was always one sided, from me to her, me always giving, and she always taking.

I've been discarded for years on end only for her to turn up again, switching on the charm and hoovering me back in again.  The last time she discarded me was over a job reference.  She didn't call me to discuss the request, she simply sent a text asking if I would give her a reference for a new job she was applying for.  I called her because I needed to clarify what type of reference.  I couldn't give her a job reference because I've never employed her or worked with her.  Our career choices were completely different.  But I could provide a character reference and I wanted to check that she would be ok with that.

This is when it all began to unravel.  She began by saying that her prospective employer could only accept one character reference from a relative, and that our older brother was providing that.  So when I explained that a character reference was the only kind I could give she exploded in rage.  She screamed at me.  I tried to get her to calm down.  I suggested she got a reference from her previous employer in Australia.  She said she couldn't because she'd told him to 'fx!k off when she quit the job.  So then I suggested she got one of her former colleagues to provide a character reference.  She said it would take too long for the reference to get from Australia to the U.K.   I said, 'not by email it wouldn't.'   Then she said it was too late and that I'd have to provide a reference because she'd already given  the employer my personal details.  This is when I began to realise she'd set me up.

I realised that her original text request for a reference was not a request, just something designed to look like a request.  She'd already assumed she could use me in this way.  I insisted on knowing what she had told this employer about the nature of our relationship.  She had failed to tell the employer that we were related.  She'd told them that she'd worked for me for 6 months (a big lie).

When I told her I couldn't help her because this lie was an act of fraud, which in this country is a criminal offence; she responded with, 'it's only a crime if we get caught.'  The use of the royal we did not escape my notice.

I told her I couldn't help her and suggested she returned to one of her former colleagues and obtained a character reference.  This is when she exploded, called me every name under the sun, screamed that I never help her (completely untrue), slammed down the phone and discarded me.  She then went on a smear campaign turning my narcissistic family against me (didn't take much effort to do that!).

That was nearly 10 years ago.  Haven't heard from her or my family since.

My beloved husband died 7 years ago.  I got a message to her.  I was trying to reach out, hoping that such a tragic circumstance would bring out some empathy.  What a waste of time.  I got nothing from my family.  No words of condolence, no sympathy, no support, just silence.

I've learned to accept that the final blow has been struck and that there is no going back.  If she tries to return to me again I will not allow her back in my life.  Don't get me wrong, I'll be polite, civilised, and respectful, but that's all she'll get from me.

I'm so sorry you've been through this.
I know, it was the same with me, except for the raging. That's horrible. This sister doesn't do it.  But yes, she never rings to discuss anything, or ask how I and the family are. She 'doesn't like' the phone.
My older Nsister, after years of waif/ drama/ accusing/ hoovering/ 'I'm about to discard you' calls, also now, 'doesn't like' the phone.
From crazy stupid phone bonanza to the  quietest, driest desert. The reason? I put up some reasonable boundaries. I stopped the mad enmeshed dance. I detached with love, remaining polite. It took me a long time to grasp that reacting emotionally, allowing them to 'set me off', was just continuing the dance.
It was one -sided with both of them for years. I knew it, but I would make excuses for them.  I just kept trying to sort of 'set the tone' for the relationship and I suppose, offer some sort of role model they  may like to follow. I guess I was desperate for a sisterly response from them. 
JerryWise calls it overfunctioning . They encourage it because it means that they can carry on UNDERfunctioning.The family system relies on us overfunctioning. That's why. when we cease, everything goes up in a puff of smoke! They can only discard us. They aren't equipped to do anything else.
When you leave the madness, you have the hope that maybe now they will get it, call you and you can establish something together which is mutually supportive.
😌As families should be 😌
I don't think they are capable. They are 'set'. It's actually nothing to do with us. It's only that our compliance means they  don't have to take responsibility for their own behaviour. They feel entitled to that blind compliance, without any respect needing to be shown to us. Although they  may appear to be asking nicely, they betray themselves with their premature assumptions. It's actually mind blowing when you think about it.
I don't miss NSISTER's  histrionic phonecalls at all, and enabling sister never rang.
I'm so so sorry for your loss. It's incredible that they wouldn't get back in touch. Yet I'm sure  that if I were to lose my husband, the same deafening silence will happen to me too.
It's like leaving a cult. And all we did was to say no once, because we had to.
I'm sending my kindest thoughts to you and lots and lots of hugs 🤗 🤗🤗🤗🤗 xxxxx

[Blodyn]

Nanotech, thank you for your lovely reply.  I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner but It's been the anniversary of my husband's death and my lovely in-law family (my real family because there's real love), have suffered a covid death just after I left my original message.  We're all a bit fragile at the moment.

I just wanted to say once again, your and I have had such similar experiences.  Like you, I've always tried to be a role model, hoping it would lead to change, and like you, I've had to learn that the only person who can change in this dysfunctional dynamic is me.  And I've achieved this by learning to set boundaries and be damned with the consequences.

If it's any consolation to you, I can say this.  After an absence of contact from my FOO for over 10 years, and having been through a traumatic loss (my husband), I have learned the hard way who my loved ones are, and who are not.  And my FOO are definitely NOT my loved ones.

I've changed so much in the past 10 years.  I'm stronger, healthier, and understand fully what unconditional love is because that's how my husband loved me.  It's also how his FOO loved him and love me too.  I'm still very much a part of their lives as they are in mine.  I would not have got through such a loss without them.  Such a stark contrast to my FOO, who have no empathy, no sympathy, no simple caring for another human being.  Their lack of humanity still staggers me and I don't know why.

What's also interesting is that you mentioned Jerry Wise.  I too follow him on YouTube.  I think it's because he's a systemic therapist (Family Therapist) that I find his teachings to be so helpful.  I've recently discovered another channel that you might already be familiar with - Patrick Teahan.  If you haven't discovered him he's worth checking out.  He's a trained psychotherapist.  I tend to follow trained therapists as they avoid focusing on dramatising narcissism and offer practical help and support to overcome the impact of narcissistic abuse.  Ross Rosenberg is another psychotherapist worth watching too.

Anyway, thank you again for your lovely reply.  I wish you all the very best in finding a way towards a peaceful life for yourself.  Have a great Christmas and best wishes for the New Year.

[happygoat]

The title grabbed me. I lived four blocks from my sister for three years.  I invited her to lunch and shopping countless times. She never accepted. She tried to hire me to clean her house. 

My father had a business.  I worked for him for a few years towards the end of his career.  My sister had worked for him before.  One day when I was with my father at work she called me to ask if I would use our father's business phone and name to call her daughters work references to see what they were saying about her. I could not believe that she would ask me to do that or why she thought it was ok. I think she does crap like this all the time. It creeps me out. Sometimes I wonder if she just tried to get me to do something crazy, or see if I would. I would never even tell her if I was looking for work.  I think she would try to somehow get involved......lol

So sorry for your pain and I completely understand.  I had hoped for awhile that my sister and I could at least trauma bond over the family dysfunction, but no................lol  She tells me that she is very ill.  She said her liver is failing and she limped the last time I saw her. I think she needs a transplant. I wrote to her to let her know that I would give her some of my liver if the doctors would let me.  I just hope she got the letter. Most of me feels sorry for her but part of me wonders if its true.  I worry and feel guilty because she is sick,  and we have no relationship.  Sometimes I think, "you should be there for your sister when she is sick", and then I remember the hate I see in her eyes and realize that my presence is not a comfort to her.  I am not a sister to her. I am a target.  All these conflicting emotions that I have for my sister can be hard to deal with. I guess if I can think of her only cry, but not get angry, I am doing good. For so long I could not let myself be vulnerable and the reactive anger that happened when I was afraid to feel hurt caused me so much anxiety and kept me in a bad thought pattern.  I hate this pain, and I am tired of wishing things were different, because they never will be, but hopefully I will be different, and I get a little chance for a little peace.

Thanks for sharing and I was really impressed with you coming back and looking at your post. I vent in writing sometimes.  This should be a safe place for you to express your feelings. I cant speak about this stuff anywhere but here because I fear my FOO so much. I hope I never say anything that makes anyone feel uncomfortable here and I am grateful for the possibility of a safe place to interact.

[sandpiper]

Sending hugs, Nanotech.
I revisit these boards in the holiday season to remind myself while I'm NC and your post gets the prize for that xx
My own posts prior to NC probably sounded very much like yours. Some of the best advice I have ever had from a T is that the way to learn to have reciprocal relationships is for us to follow the lead of the other person. If they never contact you unless they want something, and you keep offering stuff, they will keep treating you like they can show up and demand whatever they want, when they want it, and they will ignore you unless there's something you have that they want.
It's much harder with a sibling and I completely lost my toys with Ensis the alcoholic, because the only time I ever heard from her was when she wanted something - and when I pointed that out (shouting, after a series of provocations) I was of course the antichrist.
After that episode I had a big long chat with my trauma counsellor about what I was doing to 'teach' people that it was OK to treat me like that. Cliff notes, I began to realise how I'd been primed in my FOO to 'fawn' to the narcissists so even though I'd stepped out of the relationship with the narcs in mother's FOO, I was unwittingly inviting other damaged people into my life to fill those roles.
You've had some really good advice here and I don't feel like I can add to that.
Been there. It's really tough breaking out of that particular pattern.
Thanks for reminding me where I was 16 years ago & for helping me with my weak moments of thinking 'I'm so much healthier now, I could probably sip from that poisoned cup & I'd be OK.'
Nup.
The idea of slipping back into all that and having to re-establish my boundaries with that behaviour again is both terrifying and exhausting. They take up so much energy.

[nanotech]

Nanotech, thank you for your lovely reply.  I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner but It's been the anniversary of my husband's death and my lovely in-law family (my real family because there's real love), have suffered a covid death just after I left my original message.  We're all a bit fragile at the moment.

I just wanted to say once again, your and I have had such similar experiences.  Like you, I've always tried to be a role model, hoping it would lead to change, and like you, I've had to learn that the only person who can change in this dysfunctional dynamic is me.  And I've achieved this by learning to set boundaries and be damned with the consequences.

If it's any consolation to you, I can say this.  After an absence of contact from my FOO for over 10 years, and having been through a traumatic loss (my husband), I have learned the hard way who my loved ones are, and who are not.  And my FOO are definitely NOT my loved ones.

I've changed so much in the past 10 years.  I'm stronger, healthier, and understand fully what unconditional love is because that's how my husband loved me.  It's also how his FOO loved him and love me too.  I'm still very much a part of their lives as they are in mine.  I would not have got through such a loss without them.  Such a stark contrast to my FOO, who have no empathy, no sympathy, no simple caring for another human being.  Their lack of humanity still staggers me and I don't know why.

What's also interesting is that you mentioned Jerry Wise.  I too follow him on YouTube.  I think it's because he's a systemic therapist (Family Therapist) that I find his teachings to be so helpful.  I've recently discovered another channel that you might already be familiar with - Patrick Teahan.  If you haven't discovered him he's worth checking out.  He's a trained psychotherapist.  I tend to follow trained therapists as they avoid focusing on dramatising narcissism and offer practical help and support to overcome the impact of narcissistic abuse.  Ross Rosenberg is another psychotherapist worth watching too.

Anyway, thank you again for your lovely reply.  I wish you all the very best in finding a way towards a peaceful life for yourself.  Have a great Christmas and best wishes for the New Year.

Thank you so much Blodyn. I'm so sorry for your loss, and I'm sending love to your in laws.
I hope you had  a peaceful and somehow beautiful and hopefully comforting time, remembering your wonderful husband.
Thank you for the recommendations- I will look up those names!
I'm so glad you've got some real love. My in laws are the same and it's unconditional. I didn't know it existed till I got to know my husband, and witnessed how different his family were with each other.

[nanotech]

The title grabbed me. I lived four blocks from my sister for three years.  I invited her to lunch and shopping countless times. She never accepted. She tried to hire me to clean her house. 

My father had a business.  I worked for him for a few years towards the end of his career.  My sister had worked for him before.  One day when I was with my father at work she called me to ask if I would use our father's business phone and name to call her daughters work references to see what they were saying about her. I could not believe that she would ask me to do that or why she thought it was ok. I think she does crap like this all the time. It creeps me out. Sometimes I wonder if she just tried to get me to do something crazy, or see if I would. I would never even tell her if I was looking for work.  I think she would try to somehow get involved......lol

So sorry for your pain and I completely understand.  I had hoped for awhile that my sister and I could at least trauma bond over the family dysfunction, but no................lol  She tells me that she is very ill.  She said her liver is failing and she limped the last time I saw her. I think she needs a transplant. I wrote to her to let her know that I would give her some of my liver if the doctors would let me.  I just hope she got the letter. Most of me feels sorry for her but part of me wonders if its true.  I worry and feel guilty because she is sick,  and we have no relationship.  Sometimes I think, "you should be there for your sister when she is sick", and then I remember the hate I see in her eyes and realize that my presence is not a comfort to her.  I am not a sister to her. I am a target.  All these conflicting emotions that I have for my sister can be hard to deal with. I guess if I can think of her only cry, but not get angry, I am doing good. For so long I could not let myself be vulnerable and the reactive anger that happened when I was afraid to feel hurt caused me so much anxiety and kept me in a bad thought pattern.  I hate this pain, and I am tired of wishing things were different, because they never will be, but hopefully I will be different, and I get a little chance for a little peace.

Thanks for sharing and I was really impressed with you coming back and looking at your post. I vent in writing sometimes.  This should be a safe place for you to express your feelings. I cant speak about this stuff anywhere but here because I fear my FOO so much. I hope I never say anything that makes anyone feel uncomfortable here and I am grateful for the possibility of a safe place to interact.

Thanks happy goat. Wow yes I see the similarities! And yes, it's painful. NC offers us peace, yet there's an emptiness there too. A need to fill the gaping emotional void, is what draws many right  back into the craziness. It took me a few tries to get out.
I'm still not fully out. 😳
Social expectations do it too. They keep us nicely in the crosshairs. After all, we should care for our family. Yes, but we shouldn't  caretake them. And they should care for us right back!
Neither sister would ever go shopping with me. Whoops there was once with UNPDsister. We went to every shop SHE wanted/ needed to go. I think she had just brought me to watch my small nephew while she shopped. I was tired when I got home, and felt oddly upset. In those days I just couldn't stand up to her. I thought if I did that,  I was being selfish. But something had felt off. Yet always just assumed I had to give more. This was overfunctioning  at its worst.
All the time, I hoped, and carried on fawning. I offered day trips out, they cried poverty. I offered to pay, then they made some other excuse.
Yet UNPDsister wanted me to help with cleaning her new house, minding her kids when she was struggling with depression, talking to her endlessly on the phone. about her failing marriage.  I went and did all of it There are a lot of times where I 'served' either sister in ways that they chose. At family restaurant get together they were  happy for me to pay for their meals.  Yet there was never any real relationship with either of them. Acts of kindness on my part, made no difference. In fact, looking back I've a feeling  I was laughed at rather a lot for trying so hard.
Of course any time I did say no, I was punished with the silent treatment.  When I was still in the fog, I'd feel shame over how I'd handled things. I'd feel resentful, yet blame myself.
It's lovely now to BE ABLE say no,  and also
to have no guilt over it.
You are right happygoat, it takes bravery to feel the pain. So we feel it. It hurts like hell at times. We know things could have been so different for us. But it's best to be Out of the FOG, and free.

[nanotech]

Sending hugs, Nanotech.
I revisit these boards in the holiday season to remind myself while I'm NC and your post gets the prize for that xx
My own posts prior to NC probably sounded very much like yours. Some of the best advice I have ever had from a T is that the way to learn to have reciprocal relationships is for us to follow the lead of the other person. If they never contact you unless they want something, and you keep offering stuff, they will keep treating you like they can show up and demand whatever they want, when they want it, and they will ignore you unless there's something you have that they want.
It's much harder with a sibling and I completely lost my toys with Ensis the alcoholic, because the only time I ever heard from her was when she wanted something - and when I pointed that out (shouting, after a series of provocations) I was of course the antichrist.
After that episode I had a big long chat with my trauma counsellor about what I was doing to 'teach' people that it was OK to treat me like that. Cliff notes, I began to realise how I'd been primed in my FOO to 'fawn' to the narcissists so even though I'd stepped out of the relationship with the narcs in mother's FOO, I was unwittingly inviting other damaged people into my life to fill those roles.
You've had some really good advice here and I don't feel like I can add to that.
Been there. It's really tough breaking out of that particular pattern.
Thanks for reminding me where I was 16 years ago & for helping me with my weak moments of thinking 'I'm so much healthier now, I could probably sip from that poisoned cup & I'd be OK.'
Nup.
The idea of slipping back into all that and having to re-establish my boundaries with that behaviour again is both terrifying and exhausting. They take up so much energy.

Sandpiper I love what you said about following the lead of the other person. That's what I've been trying to do. The result is that UNPDsister has stopped her engulfing/ ignoring pattern and now completely ignores me. Enabling sis , the subject of this thread, has revealed herself to only contact me when in need of something from me. It's sad.
I used to feel responsible  for their happiness. 
I've tried this with friends too. One friend I had was lovely when she needed something, then when not. she would be rude to me. and drop me. So I stopped 
the overfunctioning.  Of course, that was the end of the friendship.
I too was trying to fill defunct  family with  others who were also PDs.
My judgement atm with new people I meet? Still unreliable!
But I'm working on it!

You've given me both courage and hope for the future. I'm so sorry you've been through so much, but you're in an amazing place now.

With these family members, I too am now an Antichrist! Such fun!

[nanotech]

Update on enabling sister.
She got the job!
As soon as her work was questioned slightly, she became resentful and gave notice. It all happened in the first week.
She now wants to know which manager said what, and she wants a meeting with him to discuss his 'slanderous' behaviour. 😳
He had just said that he she looked a bit overwhelmed, and wanted to see if he could offer her some support.

[nanotech]

She's messaged me telling me that she's sent a nice email in, and she's trying to re apply for the job. After how she's been, she's got zero chance of hearing back from them.
I had no idea what to say so I just said  'Okay.'

[moglow]

You can't help but laugh sometimes. Tell her the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, see if she picks up what you're puttin' down. Guarantee this is all a misunderstanding of their making, to hear her tell it, she's giving them a second chance etc. If I were them? Um no thank you.

[nanotech]

Thanks Moglow. Yes you are so right.
They just don't see it do they?
It's years since she's been in the workplace. She's semi -reclusive. She has no one come to the house. She doesn't speak on the phone.  Of course she was going look and feel overwhelmed, in a busy office.
I had everything crossed for her that if she stuck it out, it could change her view on life; it could be her way Out of the FOG.

The first week of a job is always a whirlwind. But then it  only takes one person to be kind, then she would have had a friend.
I think she's mortified that she wasn't able to hide what was probably pure fear.

As far as she is concerned, she was doing the computer work wasn't she, and that should have been enough. She said there was one person who had been speaking to her, and she didn't realise for a while. But then she answered them. Maybe that was the one person trying to be kind and draw her in to the office 'family'.
I think maybe she was blocking out those around her, as some sort of defense mechanism.