Supporting DS, who wants to go LC—a tightrope walk

[Stillirise]

This situation escalated quickly. I just noted in PL's holiday thread how uPDh has been expressing his concern about DS12, as he has seemed distant during their visits.  I've been MC'ing my way through it, knowing the reason was DS has become frustrated with his uPdf. 

DS has  been complaining for some time about certain behaviors, mostly incessant questions, cutting remarks, not respecting DS's boundaries, and his f putting words in his mouth. I went to the toolbox, and began talking with DS about things like projection, emotional intelligence, and boundaries.  I have really tried to approach this with respect for their relationship, and say things like, "your dad's behaviors don't make him a totally bad person. He has good qualities, as well." (They are buried quite deeply most of the time, but I'm trying to walk a tightrope here.)

Last night, things broke open between them. They went out to dinner. DS was apparently doing his best MC/GR, which we haven't explicitly talked about, but I've seen in action—Y'all, they are watching us, and picking up cues, whether we recognize it at the time or not! Updxh began badgering him about what's wrong, what's the problem, etc. I was also getting texts from xh during their meal, with the same inquiries.  Since updxh is incapable of believing that he could be the issue, it's all over the map. It must be school, or he's sick, or it's me, why won't he just say?!...

Finally xh told DS he didn't have to see him anymore if he didn't want to, that DS is ruining xh and DD's time together with his negative attitude anyway. DS said that was fine. He came home and was cheerful, telling me he didn't have to go back to his dads. When I sat him down, he got emotional, and poured a lot out.  He has asked not to have to speak to or visit his f, who has since been badgering me and DD10, to try and figure out "what's wrong" with DS.

I've recommended a no contact cooling off period to them both.  I don't want to be seen as meddling, but I am going to support DS, and his mental health. For now, I'm ignoring updhx's messages asking me what's wrong.  He couldn't see it before we divorced. He can't see it now.  They aren't scheduled to go back to updxh's house until next weekend, so we've got some time here.

Your guidance on how to walk this line is welcomed!

[square]

Wow. What a development. Great job on supporting DS in a healthy way without demonizing his father.

I don't know but one idea I had was to respond to X with something like "I don't know but don't worry about it" with an MC shrug. Meaning, you don't participate in the whole thing where X is trying to pin down what's going on, but give him a teeny bit of cover to let it go.

He's going to keep at it until someone assures him that whatever is going on is somebody else's fault and he is entirely blameless in the matter. Since he is not capable of any other outcome, maybe signalling that he can relax about it may de-escalate things a bit without throwing DS or anyone else under the bus.

Short of him suddenly being psychologically healthy, not gonna happen, the ideal situation is that he backs off of DS and lets LC happen with a minimum of conflict. If your attitude is "this is all fine, nobody is blaming anybody, who knows what's going on but nbd, it's fine if you don't want DS around as much, nobody is upset" he can maybe write whatever story he wants in his head and let it go because nobody is countering his little narrative.

[Stillirise]

Square, you were right. I finally replied along the lines you suggested...and that I'm sure it will work itself out.  Vague, non-committal, no finger pointing. It managed to stop his spiraling, at least temporarily. Thanks!

[moglow]

Smart ass mo says in her head, "so he's texting me about DS while *with* DS? Dude, no. Focus. If your son isn't talking a) ask him or just listen for a change, B) you're the adult - figure it out or wait for him to decide if he wants to talk about it, and C) it's probably not the first time." Or some combination of the aforementioned.

Not sure how old DS is, but seriously dad, badgering him or anyone else isn't the answer. If he thinks for one minute I'm gonna throw myself under that bus and pat his head so he feels all better, HELL no. DS and his stuff are the priority here, not dad.

Sorry - this one kinds struck a nerve with me. I've seen it too often myself, parent looking to blame someone else rather than listening to the kid right in front of them,

[Stillirise]

Mo,
I’ve been lurking lately on the “dealing with PD parents” board.  I’m gleaning all I can from those who’ve survived a PD parent (or 2), in hopes of helping my children cope.  It’s been very insightful.

You’re right. It’s utterly ridiculous that updxh can’t stop talking long enough to see and hear what’s right in front of him.  DS12 is smart enough by now to know if he calls his F out for his rude, badgering, belittling, insulting and insensitive behaviors, it will only blow back at him, so he chooses to stay mostly quiet. 

The vast majority of the times that xh has escalated himself to the point that I have blocked him, or instructed him to leave my home, it has been on his own time with the kids, or immediately after. Yes, DS learned the block tactic from me, only because when I’ve done so, xh has complained to the kids that I’ve blocked him. Often, they were witnesses to the behaviors that led up to it, as well.

After talking with DS last night, I could tell he felt both relieved that his dad was giving him an “out,” and guilty for wanting to set boundaries around it. I used a term I saw down in the “working on us” board this week, and told him it was perfectly ok to feel “emotionally wobbly” about it. (Thanks, coyote!)  UPDh isn’t able to fathom that DS would actually prefer not to speak to or visit him, even though he threw it out there, so this is just the opening skirmish, I’m afraid.

[moglow]

Thank you for being the responsible one. It matters more than you think.

[Penny Lane]

Square, that is a GENIUS suggestion. Stillirise can't control what the ex does, but giving him an "out" in terms of the story he tells himself gives your son a much better chance of having peace. I love it.

Stillirise, this seems like a very good albeit stressful for you development. First of all, your son is SEEING you react to your ex in healthy ways. Second of all, your ex is setting the precedent that the kids can choose not to see him. Maybe that won't be his position forever but once he's set the precedent it's harder to walk back from it.

When you talk to your ex about this, I would be as "helpful" as possible without committing to anything. Square's suggestions like I said are A+. If your ex feels like you're on his side and are helping him accomplish what he wants, he might not escalate to the point where your son has to go back.

But your main task here is to help guide your son through very complicated emotions. You're doing a great job! Telling him it's OK to be emotionally wobbly, that's great. I suspect you'll have to do a lot of validating of his feelings, telling him that it's good to set boundaries, it's also totally reasonable to be sad about it, validating that it's not OK for his dad to treat him the way he does. And so on. You're already doing this, I just think there'll be a lot more of it. If he's not in therapy, I highly suggest it. This is hard for him and he has done a very brave adult thing!

A couple twists to watch out for:
Healing is not linear. This doesn't necessarily mean that your son is going to feel this way forever. And that's OK! He might go back and forth several times on whether he wants to see his dad or how much. With that in mind, always speak with kindness about his dad, because he will remember it when he's in the "dad isn't so bad" phases.

Another is that if your ex "loses" DS, he now has 100% of his attention to turn to DD, both positive and negative. Don't forget to help guide her through this time. A NC/LC action has ripples through the entire family.

Like I said, you are doing great! Just keep being your kids' rock. Take care of them and take care of yourself. You have done such a great job to get them this far.

[Stillirise]

Mo, PL, square...I so appreciate all of your kind words and support!

DS had been in therapy, and was actually released by the therapist, to an "as needed" basis.  I will be taking him for a check in after the holidays.  I have told him how incredibly proud I am of his level of emotional maturity, and self-regulation.  I encouraged him not to necessarily think he's slammed the door forever on his F, or that he couldn't still do things like Christmas at grandma's, etc., with that side of the family.  I told him I would support him in a break, for as long, or as little as he needs.  I also told him about how I spent several years in late teens/young adulthood VLC with my own alcoholic F, while maintaining relationships with some of the other (healthier) members of his FOO.  However, before the end of his life, we were able to have an imperfect, yet meaningful, relationship.

I do worry a lot about DD10.  She is still in the idol phase of being daddy's little girl.  I've watched her cling to every scrap of attention that has come her way from him.  I think she may be viewing this as her "big chance." She also isn't quite as good at handling her emotions as DS, but I think she's basically on par for a girl her age, in early puberty, and considering the massive turmoil she's been through.  She is actively in counseling, under protest on her part.  While there, she mostly seems concerned with the typical pre-teen girl drama, though even her counselor has noted she gets very defensive when things come up about her F.

Just like in the divorce, I'm still focused with my eye on the prize. It's partially the same—Raise these kids into healthy, well-adjusted adults, and minimize the toll from their PDF as much as I can. Breaking generational cycles, and providing cover from pwPDs is exhausting sometimes. I couldn't do it without you all!

[square]

Well done, great job.

The thing I'd want to express to DD would be something like "sweetie, you deserve to feel special with your dad regardless of what your brother does."

[Stillirise]

The momma bear in me is ready to unleash today. DS quietly unblocked his F from his phone,  after he realized I was getting a barrage of messages instead.  He just sent me the screenshots of the last 2 days.  Unfortunately, they look similar to what's in the the file I already have, containing 100's of shots of the same things I used to get.  Projection, gaslighting, blaming veiled as an apology (I'm sorry I didn't handle it well when you were being an a**), etc. alternated with love bombing, and throwing in a reminder of expensive gifts for good measure. It's beyond the pale.

I'm having one of those moments where I'm so angry, even with myself, for bringing a child into the world, that has to deal with this.  I'm holding it together outwardly, for now, at least.

I advised DS to mute notifications at the very least, or put the block back on.  I explained that even though his F is telling him he can't block him, and must communicate with him, our custody agreement says I have to allow xh reasonable assess to speak with the children on my time. That does not mean unlimited access, and on his terms.

[Stillirise]

It's been a long week! Updxh started his victim campaign, going back on his previous statement of DS could visit if he chose to.  He then tried to put it on me to tell DS he had to visit his F.  I stayed outwardly calm, for the most part, and maintained MC with x, as he ricocheted between attempting to love bomb and gaslight DS.  DS remained adamant to me that he did not want to visit right now, and needed a little break from his F.   I again recommended to x, a little cooling off space for DS, and tried to explain if x forced DS to stay with him, under the current circumstances, I thought it might hurt his attempts at repair, rather than help.  I realize this will likely prompt him to turn it around, and say I prevented him from having a healthy relationship with DS.

After all the back and forth, saying DS has to visit, then it's DS's decision, and back, it ended up with him allowing DS to stay with me.  Of course, there was much posturing about how he rarely gets to see him, he can't fix things if DS doesn't come to his house, he really would prefer if he came, but would respect DS's wishes. So, lots of guilt for DS, but he has shown an impressive level of maturity for 12. 

I hate it for him, because this is just the beginning of a lifetime of this for him.  I remain hopeful that he can keep learning the tools, and be able to stay in contact, or not, to his comfort level, without perpetuating the cycle.

An aside, DD10 happily went with x. I'm sure she's been getting lots of questions, but is hopefully enjoying the one on one time with her f.  She had a rough week with some girls at school, so maybe in this case, it will be a good break from her everyday, as well. All I can do is stay cautiously optimistic, I suppose.

[Penny Lane]

I'm proud of your son and of you for being such a strong role model for him!

[Stillirise]

A little holiday update...DS went with his F on Christmas, to spend the day with extended family.  I wholly supported and encouraged him to go, as I don't want him to create a rift, or lose contact with his cousins, grandparents, etc.  Both children are scheduled to stay with their F all week.  However, it appears I will be picking them up tomorrow. They seem to have had enough. Xh is posturing about losing time, but I'm certainly not forcing any of this.  I've told him it's his call, but at the same time, I think he knows for the moment, that forcing them to stay isn't helpful.

It seems xh is currently suffering from a lack of steady supply.  Now that DS stood his ground, and is apparently getting along with him reasonably well, he's lobbed a few baited comments at me this week.  I have completely ignored them, and have tried to remain BIFF (brief, informative, friendly and firm) in any necessary interaction. A telling aside—he mentioned that a couple of people quit his family business recently. He seemed flabbergasted that one long-time employee left, and took a pay cut in doing so. (I MC'ed this news.) That further supports my thought that he's been searching for supply, and it's been rebuked all around.  Since the divorce, I've heard awful stories about his behavior at work, and elsewhere, going back many years. It's validating, but sad.  Hopefully, he will find new supply, and it will be awhile before he cycles back to DS, or starts on DD.  I expect DS to remain cautious, and somewhat closed off with his F, at least for now.

I really wouldn't put up a fight, if xh tried to make the kids stay.  However, I am glad it looks like they will get to be home, to decompress for a few extra days, before returning to school. 

[Penny Lane]

You are a good mom! It's great that you can support your kids in finding their own relationship with their dad, whatever they want it to look like.

It definitely sounds like he is flailing. I always love when BM first gets a new boyfriend or even when she's dating and it's going well - lots of good supply for her means basically no interaction between her and DH.

[Stillirise]

The tenuous thread of a relationship between DS and XH is holding on for now.  DS has resigned himself to the fact that he must spend at least some time with his F.  I'm trying to maintain a balance between letting him vent to me, but also not allowing him to talk rudely about his F.  All of this, along with discussions with both children and I, has led me to look harder at DD's experiences.  She still wants to be a daddy's girl, and has him on a pedestal, to some degree.  I try to temper negative talk about him from DS, while also trying to be honest, and factual.  DS and DD are such totally different people, that it is taking two totally different approaches.  To demonstrate, DS13 has never really believed in Santa, tooth fairy, etc., and thinks the whole idea of it is kind of silly.  DD11 has always wholeheartedly embraced these things, and only recently admitted that she knows who's behind it.  She then asked me to keep pretending, and carry on with those things as I have always done.  As this relates to their uPDf, my concern is that she builds these highly idealistic, fairy tale-like narratives, about how things are, or should be.  She buys in totally, when xh tells her things that aren't realistic, truthful, or are never going to happen.  DS, ever the pragmatist, often points out truths to her, about their F's drinking habits, his verbally abusive behaviors, his untruths, etc.  Typically, she makes excuses for their dad, or denies the truth flat out.  I try to not allow these discussions to spiral into an argument between them.  I am mostly concerned for the day that DD is forced to face the reality of the situation.  She has strong emotional reactions to events, in general, but especially to negative ones.  Any advice on how to help keep it real for her, in hopes that it might temper future disappointments, without triggering her defense of her strong sense of loyalty to her F?  Is it terrible of me as a mother, to admit I fear contributing to the creation of another PD person, as a result?  Thanks, all!

[square]

I don't have any ideas, just the thought that the more her idealized views are challenged, the more she will dig in to protect them.

If we liken her idealizations to a stone wall, she'll reinforce against her brother's attacks on those idealizations.

She would need to feel bery safe to, say, remove one small stone from that wall. Because the wall cannot just crumble, it will take too much with it.

She can remove a stone, under her own power, if it's safe enough that noone will be taking more down against her will and risking total collapse.

I've no ifea how to facilitate this, because her brother is his own person and he will call it like he sees it. In fact, I'm sure it downright offends him to see this fantasy wall, and makes him feel a bit unsafe in a way. He is kept safe by clarity, and by not trusting until it's earned.

She may do better in later years, when she has some distance from her brother plus ongoing support from you.

My husband and his sister have a bit similar dynamic with their estranged father. Sister doesn't full on idealize him but there are certain ideas or feelings that she must protect, and my husband feels safer writing him off totally so he is less vulnerable.

I'd say what my SIL is protecting even more than her father is her fear thst she is not a good daughter or good person. So admitting her father is frankly terrible means, deep down, that she is terrible - to think such a thing. And of course also the whole world is less safe if we admit that really terrible people are in it, and those people can hurt her, so it's more comforting to believe that everybody is basically good but sometimes are just not that great at showing it.

But as she got older she was able to admit her father's flaws to a larger degree. However, that's also in the context of having been almost totally estranged for 20 years (my husband was totally estranged, and their father didn't fight the estrangement and just wrote them off).

Sorry for the ramble and this is all probably pretty obvious but hopefully it might help a little in some small way.

[Stillirise]

I don't have any ideas, just the thought that the more her idealized views are challenged, the more she will dig in to protect them.

If we liken her idealizations to a stone wall, she'll reinforce against her brother's attacks on those idealizations.

She would need to feel bery safe to, say, remove one small stone from that wall. Because the wall cannot just crumble, it will take too much with it.

She can remove a stone, under her own power, if it's safe enough that noone will be taking more down against her will and risking total collapse.

I like the way you've put that, square.  Thanks!  I know in my heart that I've done the biggest thing to protect them, which is removing the conflicts and drama of everyday life with a PD from our home.  However, I suppose I will never stop wondering and worrying about what else I can do to minimize their trauma.  I sense that we are moving toward an era where DS becomes the SG, and DD becomes the GC.  I suppose we will ride that wave as it comes.