DH keeps challenging me on NC

[Wendy Darling]

Okay...hi. I haven't been here in ages  How have you been? How are the kids? Me? Well, I've been happily NC with my covert NMIL and N step-fatherIL. But of course it hasn't been smooth sailing. Is it ever for anyone?

With regular intervals, usually around Christmas, MIL starts working on my husband. I'm sure you all know the drill. Then he'll get stressed out of his mind and then he will choose to dump all that stress on me, in hopes that I will fix it.

Yesterday he told me that all he really wants for Christmas is for me to sit down and try to talk thing through with her. He also said that he'll always hate Christmas as long as it's like this, and went on to tell me all the reasons why December is so difficult for MIL, and how terrible it is for him to have her weeping on the phone.

What usually happens is that I will feel like I have to consider it, because I was raised by a horribly abusive parent and never learned that having boundaries was allowed. And then I work myself into a howling panic attack and he agrees to drop it. Until next time it comes up, when he's seemingly forgotten how badly it affected me last time.

This time it's been a bit different. This time I'm furious with HIM. Because I feel like HE is the problem here and that I have made a decision - which I made to protect my mental health - and I should be respected. But I'm not being respected, am I? And I have no idea what I can do to drum that into his head.

The worst part is that her manipulation has always been hidden under a veneer of kindness, so I start to feel like I'm the crazy one and that maybe I'm just massively overreacting because of my childhood triggers. Then again, I don't have these reactions towards anyone else in my life; just her and her husband.

[Andeza]

In your shoes, for me it would be time to calmly ask DH not to mention his parents at all. I'd have one of those super calm, super chill, gentle smiles type of conversations without accusations or anything like that. Just a very simple message of: I've chosen NC for my mental health, and in order to remove the stress that your parents cause in my life, I'd like it if you didn't mention them anymore, especially around the holidays. Something along that line, very direct, very brief, and very pleasant. The same tone of voice and expression you might have if you were talking to a stranger about the weather.

This is not a fun spot to be stuck in. I'm sorry you're going through this.

[moglow]

Fact: We can't fix other people. Someone who's intent on having their feelings hurt when things don't go their way, will always have their feelings hurt.

I'll bet your husb has always been put in the position of fixer and hates it. He thinks if you'll play along it'll take the pressure off for a moment. He could just change the subject when they bring it up, tell them nicely he's rather not but no. That's a confrontation. Still - HIS stuff. Sure, you could go, then what? He's gonna sit there and suffer in silence while they ignore or talk down to you? Tippy toe around mom all puffed like a toad feeling put upon? Tension so tight you can slice it like a spiral ham? Happy. Holidays.

You haven't had a relationship with them in how long? That doesn't magically change because it's Christmas, or her/your/his birthday or anything else. I get they may want a Norman Rockwell Christmas, but no. Forcing it doesn't make it so.

Be nice but be firm - we've had this conversation, honey. I'm not interested in being around them. At all. Go see your parents or don't, I choose to not go there anymore. I'm sorry you disagree, but my feelings there haven't changed.

[moglow]

Thing is, he feels he has to try and answer for you since she's asking. He knows telling her "she's already talked about this with you and isn't interested in trying again" just gets more "but whyyyyyyy?? She won't tell me what's wrong!!" I'd bet he's said it countless times and doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to keep doing it.

I get it, it's hard when mommie dearest cries and he's expected to fix it. He can't. She could also be an adult, pull up her own shorts, accept what she's been given and back the hell off. But no. She has to have a scapegoat.

Vicious circle.

[daughter]

I've established a "your mom, your job" regarding my petulant but quite independent widowed MIL who fortunately has always lived several states away from us.  DH is not close to MIL, but visits once or twice a year, calls her every few weeks, and does all her gifts and cards.  My own malevolent NBM was so offended, so threatened by MIL's mere existence, that any visit to/from MIL resulted in monstrously bad NBM temper tantrums that left emotional scars on me.  This early-implemented "mine/yours" arrangement was a godsend.  (I'm now NC w/my NPD-enmeshed parents, thank goodness.)

If MIL is local, suggest that DH schedule a 2-hr max "off-peak" visit, him alone, Christmas Week. (If MIL is far away, then DH can schedule a holiday call w/MIL, sans you.  I've counseled my married friends that sometimes it's prudent to "draw the line" with our spouses regarding in laws, and this seems situation for such advice.

[Hilltop]

I would tell him he can have a relationship with his mom all he wants, you are simply not going to.  Tell him you don't want to discuss it anymore.  If he wants to see them around Christmas, he can organise that.  Not on the holiday but around Christmas day he can go have a meal with them or take time to visit them however that needs to happen.  You don't need to be there for that.  Tell him the only one stopping this is him.

I'm sorry that sounds really stressful. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi there! I've been in your shoes as well, and gotten similar advice here. It's very good advice!

I very much relate to feeling doubt because maybe I'm overreacting because of my own issues. It's very easy to cast blame there because my FOO is more overtly dysfunctional, and I've had the lifelong habit of self-blame, also courtesy of the abusive FOO. Perhaps they are worse. After seeing the IL's shenanigans post-NC I'm not completely sure, not that it really matters. But I went NC with the FOO first. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. 

I think I ran into trouble by framing it as I COULDN'T handle them. I needed to protect my mental health. It's not much of a jump to once again putting blame on me and my weakness in not being "healed enough" to handle it. However, like with toxic chemicals, the only true solution was to limit exposure. Not build up a tolerance, which would still cause plenty of harm. The problem is the toxicity, not you. You are not made for abuse. It is not okay for other people to expect you to "take it" to make when you obviously have the option not to. It's at best a horribly selfish desire. I swear I'm going to embroider this on a pillow some day, but you don't have to light yourself on fire to keep other people warm. If the pressure from MIL is too much for your DH to handle... well then he knows from bitter experience where you're coming from.

"Oh it's so terrible to hear her weeping on the phone." That's exactly why you no longer listen to it. Imagine that.

[Pepin]

The worst part is that her manipulation has always been hidden under a veneer of kindness, so I start to feel like I'm the crazy one and that maybe I'm just massively overreacting because of my childhood triggers. Then again, I don't have these reactions towards anyone else in my life; just her and her husband.

Sheesh, this is exactly what I feel about my DPD MIL.  I just cannot make sense of who she is and why she is the way that she is.  If I behaved like her I'd be ridiculed yet somehow she gets away with it - and I don't think her being of an older generation is the reason either for her to be the way that she is.

I get it, it's hard when mommie dearest cries and he's expected to fix it. He can't. She could also be an adult, pull up her own shorts, accept what she's been given and back the hell off. But no. She has to have a scapegoat.

My DH is also a rescuer/fixer.  He was essentially assigned this role before even being born.  DPD MIL doesn't know how to be a big girl.  And because your MIL and mine don't want to accept responsibility, we become their SG.  I was the SG in my FOO and despite moving on from that and going NC with NF, I think DPD MIL decided I wasn't done being a SG in this lifetime.  Ugh. 

I'll bet your husb has always been put in the position of fixer and hates it. He thinks if you'll play along it'll take the pressure off for a moment. He could just change the subject when they bring it up, tell them nicely he's rather not but no. That's a confrontation. Still - HIS stuff. Sure, you could go, then what? He's gonna sit there and suffer in silence while they ignore or talk down to you? Tippy toe around mom all puffed like a toad feeling put upon? Tension so tight you can slice it like a spiral ham? Happy. Holidays.

Ditto again on this, too.  Our DH's are throwing us under the bus because they can't take the pressure.  On my end, since we host, DH wants DPD MIL to attend.  I don't want her there.  But, it is his home, too, not just mine....and this is where we have had a lot of friction.  And on the other hand, if I don't stand by his side then he will feel unsupported  - but the thing is, he isn't really standing by my side.  Our husband's just can't see the dysfunction because they are too close to it.  Dang holidays. 

[bloomie]

Wendy Darling - welcome back! And here we all making our way a little band of travelers here on the in law board.

Yesterday he told me that all he really wants for Christmas is for me to sit down and try to talk thing through with her. He also said that he'll always hate Christmas as long as it's like this, and went on to tell me all the reasons why December is so difficult for MIL, and how terrible it is for him to have her weeping on the phone.

This stood out to me the most out of all you shared. This ⬆️ is emotionally manipulative and emotionally immature. Yes, I went there and didn't sugar coat it or preface it with seems or I think or may be. The person who is 100% responsible for their love or hate of a holiday that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the current emotional temperature of a problematic mother/mother in law, is your DH.

It is his choice to allow himself to be so infected with his mother's view of a time of good will to others and celebrating the birth of Jesus (if you do) or simply the holidays as a family time together - whatever you celebrate - taking on his mothers' emotional garbage and wearing it around like a cloak of despair that can only be solved outside of himself by you getting in line and making it all better for him and his mother, puts you in the position that is not only unfair it is incredibly unhealthy.

That everything inside of you is resisting being made responsible for your DH's and his mothers' emotional stuff is appropriate and healthy!

This time it's been a bit different. This time I'm furious with HIM. Because I feel like HE is the problem here and that I have made a decision - which I made to protect my mental health - and I should be respected. But I'm not being respected, am I? And I have no idea what I can do to drum that into his head.

A very wise woman I know says that anger is a sign of boundaries violated and needs not met. And another wise woman says that anger asks the question.. what needs to protected and what needs to be preserved? So, it seems your anger has arrived on Santa's sleigh right on time to assist you as you settle this with your DH once and for all however you decide is best and right for you.

[Poison Ivy]

I love this turn of phrase -- "wearing it around like a cloak of despair" -- although I do hate the behavior (often engaged in by my ex-husband).

[Leonor]

Hear, hear, Bloomie!

Wendy Darling, I believe your Dh's pressure and your own anger are signs that you are in a phase of tremendous growth. Tremendous growth, however, usually sucks when you're in the midst of it.

Your dh will hate the holidays ... as long as he is like this: allowing anyone else, either his mother, his spouse, the landlord, the grocery store checkout person, to control his emotions.

Now, he's not aware of his emotions. He's feeling majorly triggered. His mom is pushing buttons he's not conscious of (since she's the one who put them there.) I have been truly shocked to hear things my mil did to manipulate my dh into caretaking when he was in elementary school that he rattles off like, oh, yeah, that happened. I would imagine, given your Dh's desperation, that he has suffered a great deal of trauma. He's panicking: please just do what she wants or else ...

That doesn't mean, though, that you "give up" your anger or "give in" to the horrendous blackmail going on in your family. This is your opportunity to stand in your adult and stand up for you. Wrap yourself in your anger like a superhero cape. It's your protective shield. "I'm sorry you're upset, but we have agreed to handle your relationship with your mother this way." "I see you're feeling sad. I wish things were different, too." "I'm your wife. I can support you, but I can't fix your mom." Whatever keeps you grounded and empowered, while relinquishing any role in the mama drama.

You have the right to show your mad, too. You can be very clear: "I hear you say that you will feel hateful towards spending time with me unless I spend time with your mother. That is emotional blackmail and I will not respond to it." Or, "I hear you feel pressured to make a choice between your mother and your spouse. I want to be clear that I am not asking you to choose, but to respect my choices."

These are all very loving statements. You are modeling for your dh that his mommy is not all-powerful. That it is possible to say no to her. That the world will not end if she doesn't get what she wants. And that his relationship with her is a choice he's making, and that different choices are possible.

Ken Adams, Ken Adams, Ken Adams! His message for partners of enmeshed men is SO on target, you'll feel incredibly validated, check out his videos. You are right, you are in your rights, and you are conducting yourself like a centered adult. It's a little Alice in Wonderland, but you don't have to attend the Mad Hatter's tea party!

[blues_cruise]

He also said that he'll always hate Christmas as long as it's like this, and went on to tell me all the reasons why December is so difficult for MIL, and how terrible it is for him to have her weeping on the phone.

Wow, talk about guilt tripping. Where's the remorse over his mother's blatantly unbearable behaviour that would have no doubt led to the no contact, plus the support for your mental health?

He's pushing you to fix a problem that you didn't create, plus trying to push shame towards you that doesn't belong to you. His mother makes a choice to offload emotionally on to her son and he in turn is choosing to assume too much responsibility for her feelings. It's codependency, enmeshment and a real overstep of emotional boundaries between mother and son.

Reconciliation should not be based on shame, manipulation and obligation, as it seems to be here. It should be based on recognition of poor past behaviour and a genuine desire to make amends and do better.

So sorry they're putting you in this situation and I hope you stick to your guns and continue to look after yourself. The waif type behaviour is infuriating. 

[sandpiper]

I hate Xmas too but I'm not weeping on the phone to anyone telling them they must bully someone into doing their will to fix it.
DH has gone off to deal with his family & I am quietly sitting with my feelings & processing them like an adult.
MIL died two years ago so I am feeling grateful for a Xmas where we haven't had three months build-up of 'I am dying of X disease' which invariably set in just in time to put her into the spotlight in September for Father's Day & which would magically be cured by New Year for the Golden Child's birthday.
As usual BIL has ridden in on the red-eye flight on Xmas Eve with his predictable orders to DH (GC & his younger brother) of 'You'll organise Xmas lunch for Dad, won't you? Don't worry I'll give you money (Hah yeah right).
This year I am patting myself on the back for refusing to buy into this...normally I'd bake something to send it along to compensate for my absence but this year if they want a dessert they can walk down the road & buy ice-cream & that is my gift to stimulate the struggling tourism eoconomy  :like - any baking I do in the baking Australian summer will be for my friends, who I love and who love me, and who understand reciprocal relationships.
I struggled with the toxic inlaws for decades. It's exhausting.
I came up with a rule of 'See whoever you want whenever you want but don't expect me to tag along if I'm not enjoying it.'
And this one 'I will deal with my family, you deal with yours.'
It's really awful to be put in this position but the others are right.
The only reason they want you there is because it triangulates you so that they can divert all of their issues onto you.
I managed to convince DH that he needed to spend more time alone with his parents to *work on* their relationship before they brought other people into that.
I'm trying to recall where I first read about Triangulation, I think it was Beverly Engel but it's probably on the internet somewhere.
My advice is to read up on it and to tell your DH that his relationship with his mother is his business and it is not your job to take care of her feelings, or his, for that matter. If she's unhappy about a situation then she can to to therapy and learn to deal with her uncomfortable feelings and the consequences of her behaviour like a grown up.
I took heart from a client of mine telling me that she put her foot down and flatly refused to say anything to her MIL besides 'Hello/Goodbye/I will get DH to come to the phone/DH is not here I will tell him to call you back.'
I followed those instructions to a T & just put the phone down like I couldn't hear any responses & then unplugged it for a couple of hours (this was before cell phones).
Putting up with that **** will poison your relationship over time and your MIL knows it and this is why she does it.
It's classic 'pitting' and she's doing it to try to get rid of you so she can live her dream of having her son all to herself.
I hate dealing with the saccharine types too.
Hope that helps xxx