Not all PDs are dramatic

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Sounds great, Simon, thanks.

[Janeite V]

Very good points, Square. I agree that cluster Bs tend to be over represented in discussions about PDs in general.

It's very interesting to me that cluster As tend to have the worst quality of life of any of the PDs, yet have such little attention and study directed towards them. I agree with others here that it may be largely because they tend to be solitary.

Both cluster A and cluster B traits run in my family. I've definitely noticed that outsiders tend to clock those with cluster A traits as having a serious mental health issue far more often than the cluster B, since the latter tends to mask their symptoms when among company, and also tend to have better life outcomes, thereby escaping closer inspection.

Though there is some eggshell walking when it comes to interacting (or rather, not) with my cluster A traits relative, I find that it does not feel like it is running my life in the way that it does with my cluster B narcissist relative.

As long as I stay out of their way (and this is quite a big caveat since their personal space is far larger than that of a non) they are never going to go out of their way to bother me, and they can often be genuinely kind. Though my cluster A relative does not have cluster B traits at all.

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Very good points, Square. I agree that cluster Bs tend to be over represented in discussions about PDs in general.

It's very interesting to me that cluster As tend to have the worst quality of life of any of the PDs, yet have such little attention and study directed towards them. I agree with others here that it may be largely because they tend to be solitary.

I would agree my cluster A H has a very poor quality of life, that a layperson could easily identify as such. Cluster Bs may also have a poor quality of life, but on the inside, where most people wouldn't spot it.

BPDs probably get a lot of attention in the field because of the self harm. And the destruction to relationships for cluster B is so severe a lot of people around them try to seek help.

It's easy to leave cluster As alone. And they don't want help, they just want people to let them be.

Both cluster A and cluster B traits run in my family. I've definitely noticed that outsiders tend to clock those with cluster A traits as having a serious mental health issue far more often than the cluster B, since the latter tends to mask their symptoms when among company, and also tend to have better life outcomes, thereby escaping closer inspection.

Agreed, my H is obviously mentally ill to outsiders who know him a little bit (he seems perfectly normal to store clerks etc). For cluster B, outsiders usually will suspect absolutely nothing, or feel like they are just "difficult" but not ever suspect mental illness.

Though there is some eggshell walking when it comes to interacting (or rather, not) with my cluster A traits relative, I find that it does not feel like it is running my life in the way that it does with my cluster B narcissist relative.

My H lacks that actively manipulative trait cluster Bs have. If you leave him alone, he's not going to bother you. He doesn't need feed, drama, domination, etc. However, DD and I do get the PD crap because we live together and somewhat depend on him (i am disabled). Our needs are met with the PD arsenal, to protect him from having to feel stress (even going to the grocery store is a stressor).

But that lack of active manipulation (there is some defensive manipulation) is something a lot of people here seem to find difficult to believe - since it is so integral to cluster B. But I am increasingly confident that H fits the cluster A profile and that I'm correctly interpreting his behavior to lack that particular element.

As long as I stay out of their way (and this is quite a big caveat since their personal space is far larger than that of a non) they are never going to go out of their way to bother me, and they can often be genuinely kind. Though my cluster A relative does not have cluster B traits at all.

Interesting. My H is also genuinely kind, when not triggered. He cares about vulnerable people and animals and desires to live a moral life. However, he is unable to maintain his moral viewpoint because a trigger will kick in black and white thinking, and he will see the whole world as evil, rather than a mix of good, bad, and in between people (to oversimplify). In that state he is unable to think or care about others, because they are all evil.

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

[SonofThunder]

Hello all,

I quickly scanned this revived thread and can accept the talking points/concepts made so far, and imo there are many variables that dictate a PD's behaviors and traits.  I want to mention some thoughts to mesh with the variables.  If these have been stated prior, sorry i missed in my scan.

In my opinion:  (even in the same cluster types)

- there is a difference between what is 'dramatic' vs what constitutes 'drama'. 
- tendencies for PD's to be overt or covert in behaviors can dictate what the target(s) experience. 
- male vs female PD plays a huge role in variability. 
- financial status plays a role.  Money assists power and the ability to control and manipulate.
- the traits/behaviors of the target (non) play a definitive role in the PD's behaviors.

SoT

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To expand on the "dramatic" vs "drama" point:

Cluster Bs are "dramatic" in the sense that they are performing a role for the benefit of others to perceive them a certain way.

This trait is not necessarily in a cluster A personality. My husband does not perform for others. His public face is the same level as mine - just a bit more polite, that's it.

But "drama" can certainly abound. He can have a meltdown. He can make poor choices. But these are not a role he plays to gain admiration or sympathy. What he desires is to be left alone.

[SonofThunder]

To expand on the "dramatic" vs "drama" point:

Cluster Bs are "dramatic" in the sense that they are performing a role for the benefit of others to perceive them a certain way.

This trait is not necessarily in a cluster A personality. My husband does not perform for others. His public face is the same level as mine - just a bit more polite, that's it.

But "drama" can certainly abound. He can have a meltdown. He can make poor choices. But these are not a role he plays to gain admiration or sympathy. What he desires is to be left alone.

Understood. 

A: My uPDw will create negative 'drama' by COVERT manipulation of her/my: time, money, situations, relationships and other people (same list) in order to silently enjoy her (power, control, greed) ability to make noticeable and tangible negative impacts on her relationship circles 1 & 2 (and on rare selective occasion, circle 3)

B: Relationship circles 3-5 receive mainly OVERT, positive action/reaction/attention 'drama' in order to obtain praise, increase her social standing and appearance and also to smokescreen-shield what she does in A. 

Any attempt to by me (circle 1) and our adult  kids (circle 2)  to thwart her A attempts, protect oneself/others boldly, dismiss A's impact and/or call her 'drama' out privately will result in 'dramatic' reactions.  My exposing/thwarting her created 'drama' publicly (to circles 2-5) will result in EXTREME, highly dramatic BPD responses afterward, in private, where only I am aware of her extreme responses. 

My uPDw has a upstanding, community, female reputation to uphold (to circles 2-5) and in a divorce, that reputation may possibly play a factor in her divorce benefits received.  Therefore, in discard mode (which I now reside), her feed comes from continued covert attempts at A, and also from covert internet feed behaviors.  She is constantly closing screens on devices when I enter the room and extending her opposite awake hours to have more free time for this online behavior.  I do not desire to investigate, as that also is my wasted time, energy and resources on her 'drama'.  She will not get the pleasure, but rather receive my quiet indifference.   

I believe 'money' and 'female' play a role in her behaviors to preserve her public reputation.  Imo the courts in my state and America, may be impacted in divorce decisions based on money and gender so reputation is crucial to maximize future gain for her/hurt toward me.  I say this through similar PD divorce experiences with multiple male acquaintances.  I also believe in PD males, there is a greater tendency to be overt with their targets and less concerned for their own reputation than PD females.  I believe increased testosterone, male peer-reputation and self-reputation manliness trophies play a role in these overt actions/reactions for PD males.

Lastly, the change and boundary-control in myself, through PD education, education about myself and toolbox practice, has improved the frequency, intensity and duration to A 'drama', but has driven my uPDw to intensify her covertness in areas of manipulation, wherever exposed areas are vulnerable because of adult and/or marital rights.  But, my response, which is toolbox controlled and indifferent, removes the wind from her PD sails and drives her to discard further, finding other creative ways to manipulate circles 1 and 2.   

Again, imo, SO many factor variables in the actions/reactions and motives of PD's across all clusters, but no matter, the stress/toll it takes on the target(s) is similar in emotional and physical ways.  Therefore i believe as non's, we walk the same non-trails together here at Out of the FOG, in support of ourselves and others.

SoT

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That all makes sense. Honestly, it sounds so exhausting for everyone involved, mostly the victims but also the PD. It honestly baffles me. I often think, wouldn't behaving normally be far, far more effective, less exhausting, and allow for things like love, support, and cooperation, which are REAL and not false?

[SonofThunder]

I fully agree Square! 

What you stated is a reality I also consider, in that PD people are mentally and socially underdeveloped.  Imo, they simply can't comprehend any other way.  Its like the animal kingdom in a way...

I personally believe we humans tend to humanize domestic animals a bit much and then sometimes, the things our pets do (or don't do) snap us back into a temporary reality that our pets are simply not at the mentally capacity as human beings.  But many times they are more compatible and a joy to have as companions . 😊

But, i believe a PD human can be the worst 'perfect storm' creature, as they are developed enough to be brilliantly deviant, cruel and covertly sinister as they keep us non's on defense and in the F.O.G.  Most have full adult human rights and can hold positions of great power in the world, and enjoy the riches of worldly success, as well as lead facade lives under the radar of circles 3-5. 

But, they are just not underdeveloped enough to serve as a preventative of those foul traits.

SoT

[JustKeepTrying]

I would like to offer another view and this is of the spectrum.  While so many of those with PD have overlapping characteristics - there is within each person a spectrum of any characteristic.  I think of it as a sliding scale - take drama - Square -your h may not be dramatic but you did mention he may be more polite to a stranger - and that he does have meltdowns - that would put him low in the sliding scale but the other characteristics in that class diagnosis may be higher.  Regardless, it doesn't change the diagnosis.  It only makes it harder to diagnose.

As for the view of affecting/hurting us - what got me, in the end, was that my xOCPDh knew what he was doing was hurtful but chose to do it for his own benefit - whatever that was at the time.  I can forgive a person who has mental issues and is unaware or trying but get sucked down - I can't forgive blatant manipulation for the reason of control

[Janeite V]

I would agree my cluster A H has a very poor quality of life, that a layperson could easily identify as such. Cluster Bs may also have a poor quality of life, but on the inside, where most people wouldn't spot it.

BPDs probably get a lot of attention in the field because of the self harm. And the destruction to relationships for cluster B is so severe a lot of people around them try to seek help.

It's easy to leave cluster As alone. And they don't want help, they just want people to let them be.

Good points. Even for those cluster As who aren't solitary (maybe they are married, or still live with their parents) it can be easier to achieve some sort of equilibrium with them than for cluster Bs, because you at least know what they want - to be left alone. Though of course that isn't possible as much as they would like because all of us need to live in the physical world to survive, and often that means cooperation with others.

My H lacks that actively manipulative trait cluster Bs have. If you leave him alone, he's not going to bother you. He doesn't need feed, drama, domination, etc. 

This is my exact experience too, although perhaps sometimes there is manipulation in order to avoid interaction.

Both my cluster A and cluster B relative can be passive aggressive and induce eggshell walking, but for the cluster A it seems to be more of a shutting down reaction to the perceived imposition, whereas for the cluster B it's designed to control and make you uncomfortable. It is very similar in effect but I really do think the causes are different. Not that either is okay!

In my household growing up, I would sometimes witness my non-parent and siblings tip-toe running and hiding from the cluster A person when they emerged from their room, in order to give the cluster A person a clear path to the facilities. If anyone was seen by the the cluster A person, then the cluster A might return to their room again for hours until they emerged again. They would rather go hungry than be in the same room as someone else. This behaviour would make people feel "monitored" and they wouldn't know whether or not to return to what they were doing once the cluster A retreated without getting their food, etc.

Trying to do set times doesn't work because arranging a schedule is too much of an imposition on the cluster A. Though I have found memorising their schedule and working around it works passably well. If there is important news or information to share, sending it by e-mail or post-it will often be enough for them to act on it in their own time, and they will even change some of their behaviours if you let them know it upsets you (though you won't get a discussion). And they will agree to a lot of things without issue since their main goal is to avoid interaction. Obviously none of this would work if you needed urgent action and really relied upon them.


Most of those things would never work with an untreated cluster B. Even if you did exactly what they asked of you, they would find a reason to cause a fight over that, too, so you're continually in a double bind. Because the goal is to control and to create conflict and drama.

I would not be surprised if many people develop cluster A PDs because they grew up among cluster Bs. Getting stuck in grey rock mode and a fantasy world as a reaction to all the chaos in the physical world.

However, DD and I do get the PD crap because we live together and somewhat depend on him (i am disabled). Our needs are met with the PD arsenal, to protect him from having to feel stress (even going to the grocery store is a stressor).

This is a really rough situation to be in. The intolerance to any form of distress is on another level, and it is terrible that those around the pwPD so often have to take on the distress themselves in addition to their own things. I cannot even imagine what it must be like to have to coordinate day-to-day life around this to such a degree. You risk either a meltdown or a shutdown, both of which can be horrible to deal with when you need to actually interact with the physical world to survive!

But that lack of active manipulation (there is some defensive manipulation) is something a lot of people here seem to find difficult to believe - since it is so integral to cluster B. But I am increasingly confident that H fits the cluster A profile and that I'm correctly interpreting his behavior to lack that particular element. 

It sounds like your instincts are spot on. I hope there will be more information and discussion about the other clusters in survivor circles. Though there is a lot of overlap (especially in the case of PD not otherwise specified) I think the strategies for each cluster might well be very different.

It reminds me very much of how for the longest time I didn't think my family member could be a narcissist because they weren't grandiose. I had never heard of vulnerable narcissism before.

Interesting. My H is also genuinely kind, when not triggered. He cares about vulnerable people and animals and desires to live a moral life. However, he is unable to maintain his moral viewpoint because a trigger will kick in black and white thinking, and he will see the whole world as evil, rather than a mix of good, bad, and in between people (to oversimplify). In that state he is unable to think or care about others, because they are all evil.

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

That is a very good way to describe it. They can have good intentions and can definitely feel empathy for others' misfortune, but when triggered they will shut down or become very mean.

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JKT, I agree that choosing to hurt others for your own benefit is unforgivable.

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Janeite V,

Yes, I think cluster As mostly want to be left alone. Cluster Bs (and Cs, I think) want to control others. But there is still conflict with a cluster A if your life is entwined. And my H has seriously dropped his parental responsibilities as well.

For my H, his MO is not shutting down or being passive aggressive, but anger. He gets furious. I feel like it's his only emotion at this point. But his fury is about being imposed upon, not the cluster B stuff.

Not only does he not care about cluster B priorities, he actively does not want them: no attention (just leave him alone), no admiration (he'd see it as manipulative fawning), no pity (ditto).

DD and I indeed avoid H like you described, and I'm not sure I fully understand it. I assume H doesn't care if we cross paths but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know why I avoid him but DD and I clearly do - we come out of our rooms after he goes to work.

Years ago I instituted a self policy of not addressing him unless he addressed me, so if I was unlucky enough to be in the kitchen when he walked in I ignore him unless he speaks to me. I also just generally trained myself to not ask anything or discuss anything except for a bare minimum that is far lower than I could imagine. I've put off important issues and let things slide a lot. There was a while where asking for groceries was a problem - that's really bad.

Emails would work for communication but he seems to have a neurological problem. He doesn't check his emails anymore. He is generally unable to keep up with anything. He probably will see a text, though maybe not for a few days, and he might miss it. He seems to only read the very last text. So anything requiring discussion just won't happen unless Mars and Jupiter align. And time sensitive stuff is crazy because I have to time it just right. SO exhausting and so easy to blow up.

So I do get double binds but they are different from cluster Bs. My double binds boil down to, he wants to avoid the thing, so no matter what I do is wrong because it doesn't help him avoid the thing. I remind him too early, too late, the real problem is that he didn't want to be reminded at all, or have to deal with the consequences.

Sorry again that you had to grow up with that. I see DD has increasingly withdrawn from her father. She seems to be writing him off. I feel sad that the situation is like this, and feel sad for anyone who experienced similar.

[Janeite V]

Janeite V,

Yes, I think cluster As mostly want to be left alone. Cluster Bs (and Cs, I think) want to control others. But there is still conflict with a cluster A if your life is entwined. And my H has seriously dropped his parental responsibilities as well.

I am sorry you and your DD are in this situation  I hope you have a solid support network to at least somewhat make up for his lack of follow through on his responsibilities.

For my H, his MO is not shutting down or being passive aggressive, but anger. He gets furious. I feel like it's his only emotion at this point. But his fury is about being imposed upon, not the cluster B stuff.

Not only does he not care about cluster B priorities, he actively does not want them: no attention (just leave him alone), no admiration (he'd see it as manipulative fawning), no pity (ditto).

I definitely hear you about the cluster A not caring about or actively avoiding attention, control of others or sympathy. So different from what we hear about with narcissists and some other PD types.

It's an awful feeling when someone around you is continually on the brink of a furious reaction because of such a low distress tolerance. It is so unfair that you and DD are treated like this because it's not physically possible for him to avoid everything he would like to.


When I was young the cluster A in my family would scream or rant at me for very minor "mistakes." Even at that age I got the impression that I was just a sounding board for all the things he wished he could say to the people who annoyed him throughout the day, because it seemed weirdly rehearsed and often didn't really match the situation. Even so it made me very socially anxious about doing anything in front of anyone, still to this day.

DD and I indeed avoid H like you described, and I'm not sure I fully understand it. I assume H doesn't care if we cross paths but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know why I avoid him but DD and I clearly do - we come out of our rooms after he goes to work.

Years ago I instituted a self policy of not addressing him unless he addressed me, so if I was unlucky enough to be in the kitchen when he walked in I ignore him unless he speaks to me. I also just generally trained myself to not ask anything or discuss anything except for a bare minimum that is far lower than I could imagine. I've put off important issues and let things slide a lot. There was a while where asking for groceries was a problem - that's really bad.

In my experience, sometimes when you don't know why you are compelled to avoid certain situations with the PD, it can be because of some meltdown in the past that you forgot about. If you successfully managed to avoid triggering that specific situation for long enough you might eventually forget why you started those particular eggshell-walking behaviours.

I am really sorry both you and DD have to hide in your rooms until he is gone. I resonate with that sense of relief you feel when the PD has left the house and you are no longer watching everything you do. It's also frustrating that you have to let so much slide, and very worrying what might happen in an emergency situation where you would need immediate action and cooperation. I bet you have to be ultra-organised and predict things before they happen.

Emails would work for communication but he seems to have a neurological problem. He doesn't check his emails anymore. He is generally unable to keep up with anything. He probably will see a text, though maybe not for a few days, and he might miss it. He seems to only read the very last text. So anything requiring discussion just won't happen unless Mars and Jupiter align. And time sensitive stuff is crazy because I have to time it just right. SO exhausting and so easy to blow up.

So I do get double binds but they are different from cluster Bs. My double binds boil down to, he wants to avoid the thing, so no matter what I do is wrong because it doesn't help him avoid the thing. I remind him too early, too late, the real problem is that he didn't want to be reminded at all, or have to deal with the consequences.

Very well said about the cluster A double bind. You would have thought it would be in their interests to get these tasks out of the way as soon as possible so people won't "nag" them or be "too late" reminding them.

Sorry again that you had to grow up with that. I see DD has increasingly withdrawn from her father. She seems to be writing him off. I feel sad that the situation is like this, and feel sad for anyone who experienced similar.

It is a very sad situation that your DD has started to withdraw, though I hope that with your influence she will know she is cared for and what responsibility looks like. Having a parent who is Out of the FOG makes a huge difference! I really hope the fury isn't directed towards her or you. Of course, no matter where it is directed, it is still awful and draining to be around for anyone.

Thank you for the kind words. Unfortunately I inherited some of the cluster A nonsense myself since I thought it was normal growing up, but I am carefully working through it (right now I am working on my physical environment - clutter blindness seems to be a common thread, I think). My relationship with the cluster A in my family has also improved quite a bit with more distance between us.

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I don't have that network, actually. Things just don't happen, things go unmaintained, etc. DD will get her livense soon and we are both counting the days till freedom for both of us. Our lives will change, but some is bad because all the responsibilities will surely fall on us, and DD will be forced to shoulder the driving. So her and my doc appts, groceries, even dealing with household trash will surely become entirely on us.

Interesting - though of course very crummy - that your PD would explicitly vent on you about something else. My H seems to need to vent but I'm glad to say it's not hiw you described, that must have been very confusing. But H is skilled at being able to make things my fault.

I congratulate you for recognizing traits you want to work on in yourself. I really admire that. In my Out of the FOG journey I have also improved some things about myself, I think/hope. That's really quality growth.

Interesting about clutter blindness, you think it might be related? For my H, if the dishes are done, the house is clean. He has OCD, and one manifestation of OCD is hoarding, and a blindness goes along with that. H hasn't been a hoarder except lately his business inventory has started gettig out of control, and he is as delusional about the business as a hoarder is about a stack of newspapers from the 90s.

[TiredOfNarcs]

I definitely get what you are saying.

My most recent ex has a lot of textbook narcissistic traits such as callousness, lack of empathy, entitlement, inflated self-importance, exploiting others, lack of responsibility, lack of boundaries, emotional reasoning, inability to communicate, lying/manipulating without hesitation...but I wouldn't characterize him at all as "dramatic."

Don't get me wrong, he can be incredibly combative, but he chooses his battles carefully and never confronts anyone who could pose an actual threat to him/something he wants, even when their actions actually do warrant confrontation. For example, when members of his organization started getting irritated with their president, that was when my ex took the opportunity to antagonize him. My ex has always had built-up resentment toward that guy, largely because of the guy's previous interest in me before I was even together with my ex, but he waited for popular opinion to turn against the guy before vocalizing his distaste for him. Even other members of the organization who weren't happy with their president thought my ex was going way too far, and it had seemed to come so far out of left field. It got to the point where the guy had to step down as president and possibly take a leave of absence from school for his own mental health. Meanwhile, my ex was okay with knowingly fraternizing with the man who SA'd my friend and made inappropriate comments to me (while my ex and I were together, mind you), purely because he knew that the guy had "clout" in a military vet organization that my ex wanted political support from.

Far more often than not my ex likes to prop himself up as the "rational, sane man" by using underhanded tactics to try to provoke a reaction from his victims, so that he can sit there and say he was the calm one and that the other person was "crazy." His appearance of collectedness and lack of "dramatics" stem directly from his callousness and lack of empathy. He harbors a lot of covert hostility toward others, but he knows when to show it and when not to depending on if doing so would create repercussions for him. That's why he's been trying to pretend that he is still on good terms with me to his friends, most of whom are my friends too and he probably suspects they would "side" with me if he tried to speak ill of me to them. It's a headfuck for sure when he feigns concern about me to them before telling me in private that my feelings don't matter.

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I would agree he doesn't look dramatic in the sense that he is self controlled. But would also say that he is playing a role for the benefit of other's perception of him - a mask.