Not all PDs are dramatic

[square]

Probably most of us here are here because of someone who exhibits cluster B traits, which are described as Dramatic/Erratic.

I could only speculate whether they are more common, or perhaps create higher conflict in relationships, or perhaps are simply more easily spotted.

I do notice from time to time there are sometimes generalized statements that are attributed to "all PDs" that give me pause, though, because I do not recognize the statement as applying to my updH.

It's not a really big deal but I've realized it makes me feel like I don't really belong, in a way.

My H does have some cluster B traits, but I've been confused a long time because he lacked some essential components of BPD (while having some others).

I realized he seems to be a solid fit for PPD, which is cluster A. While still having some B traits.

So I just wanted to point out that the forum is shared with people who may be here for cluster A or C, possibly with incomplete B traits or maybe none at all - even if they are surely in the minority.

Cluster A is described as Odd/Eccentric, and those with traits tend to have fewer relationships. While their personalities are still maladaptive, they do not necessarily have the dramatic affect where they are acting out a role for the benefit of others, or trying to one up others, or setting up manipulative scenarios. They might, but not necessarily.

Cluster C is Anxious/Fearful, and includes DPD and OCPD, very maladaptive indeed. I can't really say whether generalized statements usually match cluster C or not, perhaps someone may wish to share their experience here - I'm sure there is often an overlap with B but perhaps not always.

[Poison Ivy]

Many of the behaviors and traits described in posts on this forum are ones that my ex does not exhibit. He likely has avoidant personality disorder, dependent personality disorder, or both.

[11JB68]

Updh is pretty much classic OCPD (cluster c), with some npd and some bpd.

[escapingman]

I think my STBX has an overlap of several disorders which makes it difficult to point to one specific, several sources in books and on youtube points out that overlaps are common. I would say my wife has strong BPD and NPD traits, some HPD traits and a lot of OCPD. Some of the traits most are saying about BPD and NPD, such as many partners, cheating, reckless sex etc is not something my STBX have at all. This always makes it difficult when one of the first things always mentioned in books or videos are that they cheat. Obviously I can't say for 100% she has never cheated, but I don't think she has got it in her, I don't think she has that interest at all as she is completely uninterested in sex other for control.

[Hazy111]

I agree and am guilty of it myself.  I think a lot of people come to this site who have experienced truly horrendous behaviors at the hands of certain types of PD partners parents etc. But that is a small part of the spectrum i believe. Most people i believe display PD traits or "defenses".

But the problem with putting people in boxes and  categories is noboby is a pure fit, there are always overlaps. There are comorbidities along with associated other mental health issues like phobias, OCD, anxiety, depression, addictions etc. 

PD in itself is a wide spectrum from the more benign Avoidant/Schizoid to the extreme Psychopathic/Malignant narcissist .  Its all depending on the level, type and length of trauma experienced in early childhood. 

In dealing with Borderlines  for example, there are Waif/Hermits to the Queen/Witch. My mother i realised was undiagnosed mainly BPD hermit type ( paranoid, unsociable) but displayed Waif like ( poor me, martyr act) and Queen type (raging temper) behaviors on occasions.

She also suffered from anxiety, depression and many phobias.

[Andeza]

Square, you've got me thinking of an interesting chicken/egg question now. It seems that a majority of people here on the site are dealing with cluster c's and b's in their lives.

So the question becomes, do cluster b's and c's simply outnumber cluster a's in the general population? Or, is it that people dealing with someone with cluster b or c are more likely to seek help regarding the behaviors? Specifically regarding the overly dramatic behaviors that we associate with these types?

The giant, amorphous cloud of neurodivergent groups is, as Hazy said, extremely prone to overlaps and comorbidities.

All that aside, you definitely belong, Square. There's points in your H's behavior that, in my brain at least, tick off the checkboxes for some form of PD. I just also find it incredible that he's dealing with so many other comorbidities in addition. I'm not sure how you've managed honestly. I'd be bald in your shoes.

[Simon]

While I agree that it's easy to make sweeping statements that "apply to all", like saying PDs or Disordered people, when they don't really apply to all, the same could be said of saying someone is acting a certain way because they're Borderline, when there is a whole spectrum of comorbidity and other variables that make one Borderline different from the next.

I think if we end up being too careful about how we phrase things, then we'll end saying very little at all.
I think common sense has to come into play.
Some aspects of BPD or NPD are mild or extreme, depending on other factors, as we've said.

Also, displaying less than 5 traits of (for instance) Borderline Personality Disorder means they're not disordered, just almost.
And the person with those few traits would act very different to a person with a few different traits.
So, while it could be that people generalise occasionally, because we are human after all, there's also the possibility that your spouse or partner isn't actually BPD or NPD, so that should be taken into consideration too.

But, on the subject of only Cluster B being dramatic, I don't think that's so.
I know they call it the Erratic and Dramatic Cluster, but that's never sat right with me.

All 10 Personality Disorders have 4 core features that are present to some level.
They are:

• Extreme and distorted thinking patterns (thoughts)
• Problematic emotional response patterns (feelings)
• Impulse control problems (behavior)
• Significant interpersonal problems (behavior)

So, regardless of the tile of Cluster B being "Erratic and Dramatic", these 4 core features common in all 10 Personality Disorders suggests that Clusters A, B and C all show ingredients for a lot of Drama, and that that sub-title for Cluster B is misleading (Drama may be more prominent in Cluster B, but the title makes it sound like it's the only Cluster with Drama, and my opinion is that that's incorrect).

While number 1 could result in dramatic behaviour, it's a bit of a stretch to say that it always would, but the other 3 are definitely indicative of dramatic behaviour, especially numbers 2 and 4.
These are from the DSM 5.

2 of these 4 core features are required for someone to be diagnosed with a PD, so it's possible that displaying signs of 1 and 3 would result in less drama, but even then, I can see both of those causing drama quite easily.

So, if you find people's descriptions of BPD or NPD or PDs in general to be at odds with your partner, then maybe your partner isn't a PD at all, just falling short of the criteria, but has some traits.
Or it could be that they have those traits, but other traits are more dominant in their personality, and those are the ones you see.
Or, one other thing it could be is that you are too close to see it objectively. What someone on the outside calls dramatic, you may not.

Food for thought.

I don't think we should get bogged down with how others describe PDs.
I think we all know what we mean, and if your partner doesn't quite fit the description for whatever reason, then thank your lucky stars.

[square]

Ah, but Simon, that's just it.

If my partner does not meet criteria for BPD or NPD, it does not mean he does not have another PD, possibly from a different cluster than those two most commonly named PDs.

I do sometimes see the assumption that those are the only ones, or that their traits encompass all PD traits.

The question of the word "Dramatic" is quite interesting. Certainly there is drama in my life, ugh.

I think the word, however, describes a particular quality of cluster B - a "performance" for the benefit of other eyes. And my H lacks that.

[escapingman]

It's like many of the books I listened to and youtube videos I watched, it doesn't matter if the other person is a PD or not. What matters is if they abuse you and make you feel crap.

[Boat Babe]

 

[Cat of the Canals]

Or, is it that people dealing with someone with cluster b or c are more likely to seek help regarding the behaviors? Specifically regarding the overly dramatic behaviors that we associate with these types?

This would be my theory. Furthermore, I think certain Cluster A characteristics might make them less likely to have many close social connections... less social connections means less people seeking help in regards to those specific PDs.

It certainly doesn't mean those people don't exist, and I absolutely agree with square that there is a tendency (myself included) to use the blanket term "PD" when specifically describing Cluster B behaviors.

[GentleSoul]

It's like many of the books I listened to and youtube videos I watched, it doesn't matter if the other person is a PD or not. What matters is if they abuse you and make you feel crap.

I agree, it is their effect on us that is the issue.  The damage to our mental and physical wellbeing.

[Hazy111]

The core of all PD behavior is  narcissism (self obsession, entitled, grandiose, lacking in real empathy, ultra sensitive, paranoid to a lesser or larger degree etc) .

Hence All Borderlines are narcissists not all narcissists are Borderlines

Narcissistic  behaviors in some maybe "covert" and thus harder to spot. For example someone who works in a  caring profession can be motivated to do so because it makes them " feel good" about themselves not necessarily how they make the  patient "feel". They may not bring attention to themselves and go about their work quietly and conscientiously but are  lacking real empathy.  That isnt to say these people shouldnt work in the caring professions. There is a knock on "good effect" to their narcissism. See also religion.

The quiet "loner/avoidant" type can seem a million miles from the classical loud attention seeker fame hungry narc.

The "loner/avoidant/schizoid " " lives in his head" where his fantasy reigns away from prying disapproving eyes.

The attention seeker lives in the world which is a mere "stage" for him and the rest supporting roles in his fantasy.

Like "escapingman" said, they can all make you feel like crap.

[square]

Agreed. However, it is even more helpful if the forum doesn't unintentionally exclude those dealing primarily with clusters A or C with black and white language ("all PDs exhibit these cluster B traits, and we only count as PD those who exhibit cluster B traits").

[Cat of the Canals]

Agreed. However, it is even more helpful if the forum doesn't unintentionally exclude those dealing primarily with clusters A or C with black and white language ("all PDs exhibit these cluster B traits, and we only count as PD those who exhibit cluster B traits").

In the interests of not being exclusionary (is that a word? let's pretend it is, even if it's not), would it be more helpful if, for example, I wrote "my BPD/NPD mom" instead of "PDmom" in posts?

Obviously there's little way to police this across the board, but I would certainly make an effort to do so myself if it's helpful.

[square]

Oh no, referring to PDmom is fine.

I'm referring to a small minority of very emphatic and generalized posts, not people just talking about their experiences with their PDs. You certainly haven't done what I was bringing up.

Even in this thread there has been a clear statement that my spouse may not be PD if he is not NPD or BPD.

[Simon]

I have a feeling that you're referring to my post Square.
If I'm right, then you are taking two things I've said, in different halves of my post, and putting them together and out of context, and coming up with "...a clear statement that my spouse may not be PD if he is not NPD or BPD."
Nowhere did I say that he might not be PD if he's not BPD or NPD.

Let's look at the two things I did say, in different parts of my post:

So, while it could be that people generalise occasionally, because we are human after all, there's also the possibility that your spouse or partner isn't actually BPD or NPD, so that should be taken into consideration too.

Here, I'm saying that your partner may not be BPD or NPD.
That is all I'm saying.
Nothing else could be construed from that statement.
In fact, it's agreeing with your thoughts on him not being either.

So, if you find people's descriptions of BPD or NPD or PDs in general to be at odds with your partner, then maybe your partner isn't a PD at all, just falling short of the criteria, but has some traits.

Here I'm saying that if your partner doesn't fit the description of BPD or NPD or any PD, then maybe he's not PD.
That is a common sense statement, that makes perfect sense.
Think about it.
The part where I say "...or any PD" means that I'm saying that if he doesn't fit the description of any PD, he might not be a PD.
What's wrong with that statement?

Only when you combine the two sentences together (even though they weren't even in paragraphs that were near each other), can you come up with "...a clear statement that my spouse may not be PD if he is not NPD or BPD."

I've highlighted in red the problem.
I never said that he may not be a PD IF he's not BPD or NPD.
Never said that anywhere.
And again, each of the two different sentences you put together to make that sentence are perfectly fine in their own context, in completely different parts of the post, as I've demonstrated.
In fact, I mention the fact that there are 10 PDs in the three clusters in the DSM.

Maybe I've missed the post by someone else that did say that about your partner, in which case, you're right to have a go at them.
Either way, I didn't say that.
Didn't even come close to implying it.

[Cat of the Canals]

I do think there are some misleading statements in this thread (unintentionally so, I'm sure).

For example, I don't agree that narcissism is the core of all PDs. "Impaired empathy" is part of one of the potential criteria most PDs share. (It might be all of them, but I don't have the DSM in front of me.) And while impaired empathy can look like narcissism (or be a symptom of it), they are not the same thing. Also, by the DSM standards, a PD must have "impairments in interpersonal functioning" and that box can be checked by someone having impaired empathy or impaired intimacy. So while impaired empathy is a common trait, it is not even a necessary one.

Actually, it didn't occur to me until now that I have this "dramatic vs not dramatic" problem with my brother. One of his SILs is very likely BPD, and highly dramatic. My mother, by comparison, is much less so. She's also very high-functioning in general. So he is extremely uncomfortable whenever I label our mother as a PD, and has stated she "isn't as bad" as the "real" PDs he's met.  I've taken to calling her "emotionally immature" when it comes up, and he doesn't correct me on that.

[square]

Hi Simon,

Did you feel I was having a go at you?

Hi Cat,

Interesting points. To be clear I'm definitely not calling anybody out, just expressing something I've seen but am having a hard time explaining.

My BFF as a teen was BPD (and bipolar). I feel like she was PD at all times, whether she was up or down. Her "happy" moods had a dramatic affect, like she was an alien to our land and studied the humans and said, aha, this is what Happy looks like. She would laugh and joke and was great fun and smart as all get out but it felt performative somehow.

It seems cluster As can lack this aspect, and I certainly think my H does.

[Simon]

Hi Simon,

Did you feel I was having a go at you?

Well, it depends on your definition of having a go.
You were certainly accusing me, in a passive-aggressive way, of saying something that I didn't say.

I still don't see how anything in my post suggested that I was saying that if your H isn't BPD or NPD then he may not be a PD, but if you thought I was saying that, I would have preferred you to have just asked me if I was saying that, rather than saying I was to someone else.

I would still like to know where I said it in my post.
Although I'm usually quite blunt in my posts (which occasionally gets me in trouble with the mods), I never set out to offend, and I'm usually very careful not to generalise and to be very precise about what I'm saying.
And with all that it mind, if I think something needs saying, I'll say it, stating my meaning as clearly as possible, without room for misinterpretation.
And my original post demonstrates that I think.
Couldn't have made it clearer, imo.