Needing Perspective on the Latest Needy(?) Friendship

[DistanceNotDefense]

Hello all - it's been a while since I've been on these boards, hoping everyone is finding warmth, safety, and good boundaries this holiday season with the unhealthy and dysfunctional people in their lives (and with holidays being the narcissists' playground as we all well know...)

I'll start this post with the age-old question - "What is it about us OOTFers that attracts needy friendships?" I can't make heads or tails of this one (or can I?), or maybe it's the recurring issue we all tend to have: not being able to fully trust our instincts about people, thanks to our past relationships especially when they're full of gaslighting.

I've known this person a long while but got a bit closer to her this late summer, and then quite a bit closer for a stint. She was extremely generous at a time of crisis for me, where I could have really used the support.

Always seemed "put together" and no red flags really in any way, and I had wondered why we hadn't been closer before, so it was great to connect. I couldn't express to her enough how grateful to her I was. She was caring and even had her own similar family dysfunctions/narcissism that I thought was the real connection we had, among other things, and after our first close hangout she messaged how excited she was to message me so we could support one another.

But, recent communications with her have made me doubt that this was the real connection...and that her generosity was perhaps conditional and had some strings attached. The first sign was we messaged each other often about what was going on in our lives, then her responses became noticeably way delayed.

This is a trigger I have learned to manage (and I do this sometimes with others, too, but I don't pretend like nothing has happened) - people get busy, etc. But I always follow up with an explanation and apology, start things right back up where we left off, say "sorry if I worried you." So I shrugged it off, accepted that our messaging will just be more spaced out, adapt accordingly, this didn't bother me right away.

She offered to come visit me at the beginning of our closeness with a ton of excitement (we live about an hour away from one another) so I started following her up on that and inviting her to my place, I was excited about this! Let's have tea, I'll cook, etc. This was during the time that I was back on my own two feet more, taking more responsibility for my own healing, trying to be strong, and I wished to "return the favor."

But then came excuses/subtle signaling from her that seemed to communicate she didn't want to make the trip to me at all. E.g. saying unprovoked, "when winter comes my car is terrible on YOUR roads/driveway" instead of just saying her car is difficult on winter roads in general - why my roads specifically? Saying she couldn't make it up in response to my invites, she was busy, she might have COVID (but then going to other gatherings that same week), too much going on but really wanted to, had this or that going on, etc. OK, that's fine, weird, but fine.

Before all this I had headed out her way a couple times, once to her place and other times to gatherings I knew she would be at where we talked and it was good. At one point when I was back to feeling OK, she messaged me as if she was in extreme physical and emotional distress. I had an appointment out her way, I went to see her too, even brought her some gifts. It un-centered me a little bit that she seemed completely OK and normal, like nothing bad had happened. She talked only very little about her distress, and more about her recent breakup, but seemed completely fine. The visit felt different and quieter, like the connection we had was gone, and there was little talk about other things we had in common like spirituality, our families, etc. In fact it was almost totally awkward.

Things started to get a little weirder. Things she talked about in the past, the facts would change. Things about herself were starting to not line up but I obviously don't have any solid proof of that. She would tell exaggerated stories that were different each time she told them. And they were so consecutive in the conversation.....that they started to sound a little made up. Three miraculous and extreme-sounding stories three times in a row? Starts to sound a little far-fetched or "too good to be true", and this started to happen more often....I don't know if it was social anxiety for her maybe, or something else.

At one point she casually referenced "her husband" in a conversation....she doesn't have a husband! She was just recently dating somebody who I personally know and for a good number of years. It was so out of nowhere I didn't ask her about it. But I thought about how strange it was the next day. She had never told me about a husband, she's had many relationships with people I know over the past decade, when would this have happened, is it amicable and they're still married while she still dates but she never mentioned it? Who is he?

My birthday was also very recent. She said she had gotten me a gift card for something. Turns out, it was a coupon for something with a very tight expiration date....a coupon for a store that was very close to where she lives, and would involve me driving down there within a tight two-week time frame (during the holidays - I mean thank you for the coupon, but the likelihood of me making it down there...!) It was also for something I'm not all that interested in, but I acted grateful.

This is getting long so I'll try and wrap up - weeks go by with very intermittent communication - I'm fine with that being the way it is - the latest message I get is her inviting me once again to do something where she lives, and to have me come down there (right on a holiday!) and right on the same date I have something planned at my place that she knows about (but I have not finished sending out all the invites to yet - and it's a gathering more so that DH is planning).

Then, she also expresses how messaging just doesn't work for her, that it's unsatisfying and tiring (using synonyms here, don't really want to relate the correspondence word-for-word). When she was the one who initiated our messaging communication so excitedly, and then dropped the communication and built the distance. Which to me, is hinting she'd rather spend more time with me in person, but she has turned down all my warm invites to visit.

So I just don't get it. It doesn't bother me that the correspondence slowed at all, that happens, life happens - but then expressing she is the dissatisfied one when she was the one not putting in the effort? That is starting to bother me.

Parts of her message were also just copied and pasted sentences from my last message with no explanation - very strange and jarring! - and a mention she hasn't seen or heard from her PD father for over a year - when just two months ago she was telling me about him calling her and how much it stressed her out! The weirdest bit is she mentions having had conversations with me in her head, which made me downright worried and it all sounded...unwell.

Out of the FOG'ers, this is the fourth friendship in the past two years that has followed this pattern - I've not cut off any of these people, but simply de-prioritized them, but figuring out boundaries with them can be fatiguing and confusing.

Does this seem just as weird to any of you as it does to me? I've spent much time in the Friend's board here reading, and I just can't help but see that pattern, that we seem to draw really off-kilter people...oh my, the stories on here! I'm trying to make changes in myself re: codependency to bring this to an end, but they just seem to keep piling in it seems.

My gut feels completely weird about her now, I wish it wouldn't and I wish I could just think of her as strange, but not dangerous or someone that I am potentially vulnerable to - but I can't shake that feeling of being taken advantage of.

I was just about to send her an invite to my place yet again when I got her message. But I don't know if I would enjoy the now vague connection, potential lies, exaggeration of stories and personal issues, etc. that it has become - and the strange pressure that if the friendship is to exist at all, it's only if I make my way to see her and make sure to be the one pouring all the efforts into messaging. (And she will probably turn this invite down like all the others).

What is it with needy friendships? Though now I write this out, it's not just neediness I detect. I feel like I have been plenty giving and attentive enough - what more do people like this want?

Everything seems great with these friendships at first - mutual interest in some things, mutual support, reciprocity, correspondence, generosity, kindness, connection, all the things, etc. Then it almost always starts to dry up first on their side. It becomes clear I'm not a priority, and I must do things *their* way, even with the risk of potentially being flaked on...and all that time, the friend expects that I make them top priority regardless.

This is the second friendship this year where, even though it was clear I was going through some really extreme crises they know about, I get the indirect message "You don't text me enough" from people who are the ones who drop the slack first! I. Don't. Get. It.

That old feeling pops up of just wanting to cut off the limb before it starts to rot, but I don't want to do this either - on the road to building my FOC. Then I'm back to having yet another person in my life where I have to figure out where the boundaries need to be, and it is just exhausting...anyone here relate or have insights to share?

Thank you OOTFers - this board has always been a huge blessing!

[Foggydew]

Does she drink? Does she have other mental, health issues, take substances? Sponds a bit familiar.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Drink, yes. Not sure what her diagnoses would be - CPTSD to some extent no doubt. She alluded to having an addiction at one point, but I'm not sure to what and I didn't dig deep, she did not seem to want to dig deeper either - or if she just meant alcohol.

Her strangest messages tend to come in really, really late at night while I'm asleep and I see them first thing in the morning.

[clara]

Sound like she really doesn't know what she wants and has changed her mind more than a few times about which direction she wants the relationship to go.  Some people are willing to get thisclose to you, then back off because they become frightened over the thought of revealing too much about themselves.  They want to deal with their issues but at the same time aren't in a psychological space where they can deal with them--they're just not ready even if they think they are.  They then engage you in this push/pull behavior because of their own uncertainty.

Someone like this has to come to terms with themselves before they're ever able to come to terms with you, and that takes a level of honesty this person doesn't seem to have yet reached.  She knows when she needs you but seems to be having trouble understanding that there's another person on the receiving end of her needs.  She's not actually seeing you, only what you represent.   And if there are addiction issues, that just compounds everything. 

You might think, but she was there for me when I needed her!  Yet how much of that being there was actually her method of gaining entry into your life?  I'm not saying it was deliberate on her part, either, because it probably wasn't.  Like most behaviors, it's learned, and she's learned it gets her what she wants.  I'm reluctant to say just go LC with her, or MC or whatever, because clearly she needs help and at some level wants you to provide it, but you have to be realistic about the help you can actually give her.  I suspect if you start backing away from the relationship, she'll come on stronger and try to find ways to get you back.  One boundary technique I've found works quite well when someone does this is to ask them if they've discussed the issue with their therapist?  If they don't have a therapist, suggest they consider one because "they have answers I don't have."  And if they resist the idea outright, know we're never going to have a healthy relationship (because someone who honestly wants help will take suggestions).

[DistanceNotDefense]

Thanks Clara, your response has confirmed a couple thoughts I had about it too. Mostly the "gaining entry into my life" part. I sense some really intense codependency, and a very indirect attempt to stoke a friendship, but also very cheaply and one-sided.

This is someone I've known as a friend/acquaintance for years and years, and who expressed that she had always wanted to be my friend and closer to me. But she had never made efforts to do so. Until I was in a crisis - I wonder if she felt that if she could "rescue" me, she'd "have me in her hand" so to speak, and then I would turn right around and rescue her from the issues she's been having for years - that is how it starting to feel and look.

It is like she is saying "look, I helped you through your crisis, now it is time to help me." But she is not being up front about what she needs and there is no crisis. She seems to be exaggerating or lying to make up that she *is* in crisis. It feels more attention seeking.

She may not be even aware of it. But this is passive aggressively expressed, in the form of steering visits and travel toward herself, and giving me gifts that are subtle reminders of what she has done for me already and are not very thoughtful otherwise (and did I mention, cheap?)

Long ago, I used to think this way about friendships too. I would do extremely generous things for people right away and think, there's no way they wouldn't like me. But of course realize now that it's actually coercive control on my own part, and usually the opposite happens anyway, people sense they can get what they want from you right away and they don't give anything in return.

I'm doing better now, I don't really "need" her support anymore (I'm not in crisis any longer....healing from here on out is on me), but would love to spend time with her regardless and basically be there for each other when it works out. But I also wonder if she resents that I don't "need" her anymore. Every choice she is making seems to insist that any further closeness must be on her terms or we drift apart.

The rest of what you said Clara makes some sense too. I'm not sure if she is still addicted or it's even possible she made that up. She could be scared of getting close to me I guess. But it has become a bad habit for me to act overly nice and harmless to people I'm getting close with so they don't get intimidated.

I don't know how much more disarming and nice I can be without being a complete doormat. I still wonder, am I not giving enough? Am I not warm enough? I have not been able to get close to many women without feeling like I either have to do all the heavy lifting emotionally because I am capable, or I make them nervous because I'm independent and self-sufficient.

It would seem that I am willing to be completely vulnerable and honest with her, but she is not with me.


But mostly, I am just tired of this dynamic and attracting it. Part of me is just plain done with being hyper aware of fellow women's insecurities, drama triangles, and what they want or feel they need from me without being plain, or clearly expecting a free therapist or mother, and having me put in far more energy than they do.

I was already blunt with another friend in a similar dynamic last year (posted about it last year). She, too, sent me a long and somewhat unhinged-seeming message after she had put up some distance first - just like in this case - she got distant/flakey so I let that drop, then out if nowhere I get messages like "Did I offend you"? And "What is wrong with me that everyone close to me leaves?!?!" But even after finally confronting her, her vague disinterest and apathy in the friendship stringed me along for months afterwards.

It is just exhausting, to never "really know" with people like this, while their actions, choices, and words continue to show that something is wrong. And it's happening all over again.

I want to be done with all of it. But can't help but feel like there is something more wrong with me than with them.

That I need to to something differently if this keeps happening, but I don't know what - or maybe I am just getting tired of people altogether, especially the too-narcissistic ones.

[daughter]

Covid era has created lots of interpersonal relationship confusion too.   Some people now seem disconnected from conventional friendship norms.

My long-term "bestie" friend abruptly terminated our friendship in a quite hostile manner. She had injured herself, needed several ER stitches, has her retired DH at home, and yet felt I wasn't sufficiently "attentive/supportive", despite daily calls.   Not fair.  She self-absorbed alone with her issues, her off-putting verbal attack delivered via email.  I was stunned, and yes, hurt by her action.

I realized our relationship had evolved into a lopsided dynamic.  Yes, she provided sympathetic ear, but so had I. But I had added responsibility of being her life-coach, career-advisor, personal shopper, therapist, and surrogate sister.  With Covid lockdown, my active caretaker-role had diminished.  And she retired.  When her minor accident occurred soon afterwards, I received her misplaced wrath, and our three-decade friendship didn't survive. 

I expect my friends to treat me with respect and kindness, regardless of their own circumstances.  And I respond in kind. I would never berate my friends in this manner, but I'd give them space as they imply or require.  But I am content to be relieved "chief advisor" role in regards to this former friend.

[treesgrowslowly]

Just chiming in here to say I agree with Clara and daughter.

I love what daughter wrote "Some people now seem disconnected from conventional friendship norms".

This is understandable, and also upsetting to realize, about the people around us. It is hard to accept that a pandemic, is going to have these other, lasting, painful effects on our lives, into the future.

Clara's advice about asking "have you talked to your therapist about this" is bang on. In the age of intense stressors, we are asking a lot out of our friendships, and the strain on those friendships, can break like branches of a tree that can only hold so much weight.

The friendships (and maybe marriages)  that survive the pandemic (with healthy dynamics intact) will have certain features. Both people will have some healthy coping skills to manage their stress from week to week / month to month. Both people will effectively communicate some of their needs and understand which needs make sense within the context of that relationship. Sharing about stressors and helping each other out / problem solve / caregiving will be balanced by moments of levity, humour, fun activities, and enjoying the friendship rather than simply 'managing' it.

So to answer your question about how to move forward and prevent this from happening again, I think that (myself included) we have to reflect on what we know, and tread lightly with new people over the next year.

Recovery is going to take time, for those who even bother to recover from 2020 - 2021.

Those of us who were studying FOG dynamics before the pandemic ever started, were ahead of the game in a way, we know that relationships based on FOG, are unsustainable over time.

Many people who were capable of decently healthy dynamics with us 2 years ago, might be in quite a state of stress at this point, and fleas may abound as things 're-adjust' throughout this next year.

I believe it is easy for people to be in denial about how stressed they actually are, because in survival mode, we might be too stressed to realize how depleted we actually are. Self-awareness, as always, is key to recovery, and a lot of people are going to need to devote time to recovering from the emotional toll that they felt in 2020-2021.

Here on the forum, in order to post here, one has to be out of denial, not in denial, about at least one relationship in their life - otherwise, they would never create a username and start sharing thoughts with others on a forum.

Contrast that with a lot of other people in our circles, a lot of people are in denial about how stressed they actually are at this point of the seemingly never ending stress of pandemic conditions. 

Therefore, even if we want certain experiences with people, we have to recognize where things are at for them. They may not be able to befriend us the way we wish (the way they wish too). It is going to take time for people to recover emotionally from the pandemic and I think some people may simply adjust to more narcissistic ways, and never consider recovery work for themselves. We will have to accept that.

The world has been through stressful events before, and not everyone recovered. As Esther Perel talks about in her talks / writing - not everyone emerged after world war 2 in her village, and managed to life life again. Some people came alive, some people simply existed. She has relayed this story often, as part of her sharing about what informed her work with people.

What was true before the pandemic, will be true this year too - we can't fix other people, we can only heal ourselves.

Trees

[Adria]

I'm beginning to think that this has become more the norm than not.  Almost every new friendship I have has been like this.  My husband says he thinks it's because of facebook. I don't know. I don't do facebook.  But, I understand your confusion and frustration. I have actually made it my New Year's resolution to let the people go in my life that always have me wondering where I stand with them.  You are right. It's exhausting. It's like a cat and mouse game that you can never win.  I hate sitting home wondering if I said something wrong, etc. etc.  The older I get, the more peace I crave.  I can be happy hanging out with myself instead of deaing with women who always seem to have me off-kilter. I, like you, used to think it was something to do with me. But, I don't think it is necessarily.  People have lost the ability to connect in real life it seems in many instances.