I’ve been trying for 5 years - I’m finally leaving

Joga · January 09, 2022, 10:26:31 PM

Hi all! I've posted very intermittently on here since 2017 when I first tried to leave uPDh. I so wish I had done it then, or the several times since. This time is different. I've been working with a therapist on my codependency issues and it's like a lightbulb has finally switched on and the FOG has completely cleared. I see the other side. It's going to be a difficult slog to get there, but I want it more than anything now.

One of my children (the scapegoat who gets the most abuse because he is autistic and difficult to parent) has asked several times for me to leave his dad. Another child (the golden child) heard the SG ask me to divorce his dad and said no way he doesn't want us to divorce. My youngest is pretty young so probably won't have a huge issue. I'm really sad for GC because he already is good at appeasing his dad and trying to prevent him from blowing up in anger. I'm scared GC will be mad at me, but I have to do this for me and for my kids.

My biggest worry is that uPDh will ask for 50/50 custody even though he can't handle them for more than a few hours at a time without completely losing it. He usually gets mad at SG for something and then gives him (a 7 year old child!) silent treatment for a couple of days.

For those with young children who are going or have gone through this process, what's a piece of advice that you wish you would have been given prior to starting to divorce?

I probably won't file for a couple of months when it's getting closer to our lease being up, but I'm getting ducks in a row.

escapingman · January 10, 2022, 03:55:28 AM

Hi Joga!

So glad you have taken the decision to leave, it's a hard one. And as you know, it is even harder to actually leave. I am in a similar situation like you with a GC and a SG and all the manipulations involving them. I have probably known I need to leave for 5-10 years (impossible to point to exactly when) but as you not got around to really do it until I started to get Out of the FOG.

I don't have any real advice regarding children, but I will follow your thread and hopefully someone else can give you good advice (that I might benefit from too).

Good luck.

Joga · January 14, 2022, 03:26:38 PM

Thank you escapingman. I know it's going to be a struggle with the kids once the ball really starts rolling. Oftentimes they behave much better with uPDh because they are afraid of his anger. He's currently being very patient and attentive with them. I wish it was like this all the time. In the past, when he got to this part of the cycle, I would think that he was finally changing. Now I know that he can only keep it up for so long.

SonofThunder · January 14, 2022, 05:42:05 PM

Hello Joga,

Your writing exudes strength and confidence in your knowledge and plans ahead. I look forward to hearing of your progress and send thoughts and prayers for strength, wisdom, insight and perseverance. Knowledge is definitely powerful.

Wishing you all the best on the rollout of your plan,

SoT

Joga · January 15, 2022, 01:27:58 PM

SoT, thank you for such a kind post. I'm really struggling at the moment so your support helps immensely.

This morning my H confirmed that he wants out of our marriage. I want out too, but what shocks and hurts is how quickly flipped to wanting nothing to do with me. And for good measure, he threw some of my past history (prior to our relationship) into my face to make me feel worse. The discard was fast and cold. I've been the target of many of his silent treatments when he suffered a narc injury from something I did or said, but this is like nothing else.

I guess I need to start to rebuild from here.

PlantFlowersNotWeeds · January 16, 2022, 07:53:04 PM

These situations are so challenging with younger children. Based on the posts on this web site and what I know from other people's experiences, is that every situation is unique. Try your best and have faith. Is a big court battle worth the fight? Only you know that answer. I would just prepare prepare prepare and then make your best decision. You can not predict the future, but....the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If he gets 50/50, he may still keep dropping them off to you...or skipping a weekend or 2. You just don't know. What if he finds another partner? He may play "perfect dad" for awhile until he gets bored.

My best advice from watching other people - is to live in the present and fully enjoy your kids. You are a good mom and the rest will follow.

IsleOfSong · January 17, 2022, 02:16:08 PM

Hi Joga, just curious.... how did the conversation about divorce come about? From what I have heard and read, PD folks typically do not want to get divorced unless they have new "supply" lined up, due in large part to their desire to avoid narcissistic injury. Is that the case with your husband?

SonofThunder · January 18, 2022, 08:59:50 AM

Quote from: Joga on January 15, 2022, 01:27:58 PM
SoT, thank you for such a kind post. I'm really struggling at the moment so your support helps immensely.

This morning my H confirmed that he wants out of our marriage. I want out too, but what shocks and hurts is how quickly flipped to wanting nothing to do with me. And for good measure, he threw some of my past history (prior to our relationship) into my face to make me feel worse. The discard was fast and cold. I've been the target of many of his silent treatments when he suffered a narc injury from something I did or said, but this is like nothing else.

I guess I need to start to rebuild from here.

Joga,

From your writing, I will presume you are well able to fully understand the PD trait behaviors of your husband and I want to congratulate you on your self-education and implementation of the toolbox in your past years of dealing of dealing with him. Im sorry he dug again into your past, to purposefully try and make you feel worse. I understand discard and its traits very well. I also understand a PD's mudslinging as a tactic to hurt.

I believe my wife's hallmark fear of abandonment trait prevents her from truly going through with her threats of divorce. Over the last 25 years, she has threatened at least 6 times, and may actually be 8, but ive lost count, but have a journal if needed. To all her past threats I mutually agree, and when she realized by my actions afterward, that I am willing to move forward quickly into separation and obtain lawyers to begin the process, she backs off her threats.

Now, after my coming Out of the FOG, i have told her that the next time she asks me for a divorce, i will 100% move forward to completion no matter what road she chooses for herself. My wife has not used that divorce-threat tactic again. In fact, my wife's fear of abandonment is so strong, she will surely need to have the arms of another man prearranged to fall into, to mentally handle a divorce, and to use (in her own mind) to try and emotionally hurt me.

Little does she realize i understand this, and that her doing this would possibly make the process smoother. I actually welcome it, for her own reduced mental strain, as she preys on another man in the love-bombing stage of the IDD cycle, and for the reduction of some possible hurt-tactics she would try and deploy against me, along the divorce process.

I personally believe (to IsleOfSong's reply), that a male's natural proud tendencies and traits of masculinity, amplified by a personality disorder in which they are so predator-like in their feeding off others to prop themselves up, may possibly assist a PD male in fully following through in a divorce, despite the childlike fear of abandonment they have buried deep inside. I believe their male pride may push through, to inflict emotional, financial and situationally manipulative hurt on the target in which they feed.

In contrast, I believe my wife's natural feminine traits, may bring the fear of abandonment emotions to the surface, on full display, and her empty threats of divorce, lose their PD lift, and therefore the threat stalls. Again just my opinions using my own experiences with my uPDw, uNPDf and a friends experience, who difficult-divorced a diagnosed BPDw who wore her emotions on her sleeve.

My hope for you, is although a divorce is very difficult on everyone affected, that your strength, knowledge, determination and plans, coupled with your husbands possibly proud willingness to go through with a divorce, may actually be your ticket to newfound freedom, yet a very difficult experience. I will agree with the statement you wrote:

"I guess I need to start to rebuild from here." - Joga

My thoughts and prayers of strength, wisdom, insight and fortitude for you during the process. If my wife ever presents that opening in the PD clouds again, i will be flying through the gap without waiver. I send you vibes of camaraderie along this difficult path we walk here, along with strength in your journey. You are surely not alone.

I look forward to keeping up with your journey ahead, here on Out of the FOG.

SoT

JustKeepTrying · January 18, 2022, 10:18:25 AM

Joga,

I am sending you strength for the upcoming difficulties you will face. Coming Out of the FOG is difficult with so many swirling emotions and the push/pull of the spouse. One minute "I want a divorce" and the next "I love you forever". And with little ones. Tough.

As for the children my advice is the know your laws. Talk to your lawyer and maybe even consult another lawyer to really know your legal rights and those of your children. A friend left her xNPDh here in the states and they had to arrange weekly visits with dad at a supervised play site. It was hell on her until her son reached 18 and then the decisions were all her sons. There are many ways it can go but if you know the law - you are armed and ready to protect your children.

As for the rest, get your paperwork in order. Have a hard and digital copy of everything - marriage certificates, birth certificates, leases, ALL OF IT. Make a list of all your possessions and mark what you want to keep. Right down to the rolling pin you may need for Christmas pies (i forgot the rolling pin and when I asked for it my spouse had thrown it away/it was my mom's). Start looking at where you want to go and budgeting. Know how your finances will be split. Here it is a hard 50/50 split and money/debt is split 50/50. Make sure your spouse has not entered into debt that you may have to carry.

Have a safe route. A bag packed for you and the kids in case things go sideways. And a route to go if you have to go fast. I know that sounds scary but this is a dangerous time and thinking and preparing don't mean it will happen - it means you are being proactive for your children.

We are here for you!

Joga · January 24, 2022, 09:34:32 PM

Thank you everyone for the kind and thoughtful replies. The last couple of weeks have been...interesting. After the apparent full discard, H cycled back around to hoovering. I was pretty surprised, but took the opportunity to tell him that the way he treats the kids is one of the biggest problems and completely unacceptable. I repeated something horrible he said to my youngest child the previous day, and he says he doesn't even remember saying it, and he seemed truly remorseful.

Since that conversation, he has been great with the kids — patient, loving, spending quality time with them. I've been doubting myself and my decision, thinking that maybe he can change.

We've all been spending time together as a family and it's been nice because he's stayed calm and helped me with chores and the kids. Because of my codependency issues (I'm scared to be alone), I've been crying a lot when the kids aren't around and wanting to be close to my H for comfort. I know it's sending him mixed signals and I'm trying to stop it by using positive self talk and affirmations.

Here's the thing though—I can't stand the thought of having any kind of physical intimacy with him. He tried to kiss me and I recoiled. So we have to separate. It's just a matter of taking the leap of faith.

Today my oldest son (the SG) confided in me that he's scared that his dad will go back to being mean to him. He's been doing so well the past two weeks with all the attention his dad has been giving him. My heart breaks for my son having to feel that anxiety about his dad.

Joga · January 24, 2022, 09:39:37 PM

Quote from: user on January 15, 2022, 02:27:24 PM

I actually see it as a positive thing that your H says he wants out too...that might make the process easier vs. if you were dropping a bombshell on him. I'm sure he'll go back-and-forth though between "wanting out" and "wanting you to stay" (depending on PD mood).

Thank you user! Yes, I agree. Even though he tried to Hoover me last week, I think he will ultimately accept it and will want to expedite the process.

Joga · January 25, 2022, 01:44:10 AM

Quote from: PlantFlowersNotWeeds on January 16, 2022, 07:53:04 PM
These situations are so challenging with younger children. Based on the posts on this web site and what I know from other people's experiences, is that every situation is unique. Try your best and have faith. Is a big court battle worth the fight? Only you know that answer. I would just prepare prepare prepare and then make your best decision. You can not predict the future, but....the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If he gets 50/50, he may still keep dropping them off to you...or skipping a weekend or 2. You just don't know. What if he finds another partner? He may play "perfect dad" for awhile until he gets bored.

PFNW, I think you're right—the perfect dad thing that he's been doing showed the first sign of slipping tonight. My oldest (SG) had a behavior issue at his after school activity tonight. My H has been highly involved in the same activity since childhood. When he found out, he was disgusted with my son and threatened to stop paying for the activity and then ignored all of us the rest of the night. H obviously takes it personally. The frustrating thing is that many of my son's behavior issues seem to result from imitating his dad's aggressive parenting style. SG already has major fleas from his dad and yells the same things his dad yells at him at his younger brothers like "shut up and go away" and "what the hell is wrong with you?".

I hope H doesn't want to take them all the time. The best case scenario is that he has them every Saturday and has a fun day with them.

Joga · January 25, 2022, 01:51:19 AM

Quote from: IsleOfSong on January 17, 2022, 02:16:08 PM
Hi Joga, just curious.... how did the conversation about divorce come about? From what I have heard and read, PD folks typically do not want to get divorced unless they have new "supply" lined up, due in large part to their desire to avoid narcissistic injury. Is that the case with your husband?

IsleOfSong, great question! Divorce came up because he said he's tired of dealing with me. I've had on and off depression for the last couple of years because I'm so unhappy in my marriage. I've been seeing a therapist and doing the best I can but I've been both more moody and also standing up to him more lately. I've stopped being submissive.

I would be shocked if he has a new supply. I also don't know if he's fully narc. He has borderline, antisocial, and paranoid traits too. He's like a PD smorgasbord

j_curren · January 25, 2022, 02:03:36 PM

Quote from: Joga on January 24, 2022, 09:34:32 PM
Today my oldest son (the SG) confided in me that he's scared that his dad will go back to being mean to him. He's been doing so well the past two weeks with all the attention his dad has been giving him. My heart breaks for my son having to feel that anxiety about his dad.

This was us too. Fearing for the next attack and trying to navigate away from it. It can be consuming. I am so happy to hear that you're able to go. I will read your posts and will cheer you on! I am only a few months separated after years of trying to leave too.

IsleOfSong · January 25, 2022, 02:56:21 PM

Quote from: Joga on January 25, 2022, 01:51:19 AM
IsleOfSong, great question! Divorce came up because he said he's tired of dealing with me. I've had on and off depression for the last couple of years because I'm so unhappy in my marriage. I've been seeing a therapist and doing the best I can but I've been both more moody and also standing up to him more lately. I've stopped being submissive.

Nice, it sounds like you helped facilitate the discard through boundaries. Good work.

I can relate to having a child who confides in you about the rollercoaster moods of the other parent. It's the toughest position to be in. But it sounds like you are on your way to creating a home where your child can spend a good amount of time away from his dad; I hope to get there myself sometime soon. Fingers crossed for you!

Joga · January 25, 2022, 08:50:23 PM

SonOfThunder, thank you for your post. Your words give me strength. One thing you said resonated:

"I personally believe (to IsleOfSong's reply), that a male's natural proud tendencies and traits of masculinity, amplified by a personality disorder in which they are so predator-like in their feeding off others to prop themselves up, may possibly assist a PD male in fully following through in a divorce, despite the childlike fear of abandonment they have buried deep inside. I believe their male pride may push through, to inflict emotional, financial and situationally manipulative hurt on the target in which they feed."

This seems to be exactly what is going on. My H has that male pride that is helping him to want to leave without a new supply. He is also quite antisocial and prefers to be alone. He's always been pretty withdrawn and spends evenings in his room watching TV and gaming while I attend to the kids. I have to ask him to come out if I need help or just to spend time with kids.

Regarding your situation, it sounds exhausting. I don't know if you secretly hope that your wife will ask for a divorce; I've wished that for many years. I've known that I would have to be the "bad guy". As it stands as of today, he is waiting on me to make the final decision. I have already made it but have to get a few more ducks in a row before I pull the proverbial trigger.

Joga · January 25, 2022, 08:57:10 PM

Just Keep Trying, thanks for the reply. I have getting a lawyer on my checklist. I spoke with a lawyer a little over a year ago and really liked her because she has a lot of experience with women in my situation, but I do wonder if I would be better off with a male bulldog type attorney. I felt very comfortable with her and like I would be in good hands.

I would be absolutely shocked if my H got violent—he's never done anything like that before and an arrest would result in him losing his high-status job. His job is a major source of supply now that I think about it. But I do have safe family nearby if needed.

CagedBirdSinging · January 26, 2022, 04:50:29 AM

Hi Joja,
I left a year ago, with two small children. It has been a real rollercoaster, with so many moments of doubt along the way. The cycle of discard and hoovering you describe rings very true. Over the past year, stbxpdH has tried every trick he can think of to manipulate me back, but thankfully I have stayed strong and stood my ground.

It's only now, a year out that I can really feel the true benefit of leaving, for myself and the children. The atmosphere in my home is calm and content. I am able to breathe. Also I would say it's only NOW with a bit of distance that I can see clearly just how bad things were before I left. It shocks me honestly. I think I was in survival mode for so long, I didn't truly comprehend how abusive my marriage was.

For advice, I would say- read books like Why Does He Do That. Also, Debbie Mirza is someone who really spoke to me, and reading her book The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist was a big eye opener and really gave me strength when I needed it. For me one of the biggest hurdles was to accept that what I'd experienced was abuse, and to let go of any guilt I had over leaving.

I also experience all the cognitive dissonance involved in watching stbx perform as 'the perfect dad' whilst emotionally abusing me. The thing to remember though- a good dad does not abuse his children's mother. A good parent realises that abusing their children's other parent is damaging for the children too. In my case the performance of being the perfect insta-dad involves very little actual care for the children. It is all a very shallow performance, and I can only hope they may eventually see through it.

Sending love and support for whichever path you decide is best.

Boat Babe · January 26, 2022, 05:04:03 AM

I am so happy to read your post CBS as I have been following your story with interest and hope for you. I really wanted to pick up on one thing you mention, and that's that your children are now in a good place and have benefitted from you making the decision to leave an abusive spouse.

In the UK, we are starting to see good legislation being enacted. One of which is that coercion in a domestic setting is now a crime. Excellent news. The other is the Domestic Abuse Act of 2021, which states that if a child witnesses domestic abuse, that is abuse in and of itself. And given that much abuse isn't physical violence, there's an awful lot of abuse of children, via spousal abuse, going on.

I bang on about this a lot here (sorry mods 😊)

Joga · January 27, 2022, 03:37:39 PM

CBS, I'm so glad you've found peace. I hope to be where you are in a year. My H has done the discard again—he left without saying a word to me this morning and without his wedding ring.

He came at me with two nights ago with how much he's changed and what a bad wife I am and I'm never satisfied and I villainize him and he can never be good enough. I didn't bother to argue back because there's nothing I can say. If I say the truth—that his years of emotional abuse have worn me down—he will just get more angry. So yeah, I haven't been a good wife because of how he conditioned me early on in our marriage that I had better not bring up issues because they will get flipped around on me. Instead I simmer with resentment all the time or am depressed and don't want to be around him. I don't make plans with him and the kids for family outings because we never know when he will get angry at something small and ruin everything.

I'm so, so sad today. It's really over. I'm looking forward to the feelings of relief and peace to come.

And yes, I found a free pdf of Why Does He Do That? and have been browsing through it. I will look for Debbie Mirza.

It's funny—my H will say something belittling to me, and then my son will copy and say the same thing to me, and then H gets mad at him. I read in Why Does He Do That? that for some men, the privilege of abusing their wife is something reserved only for dad. I don't know if that's what's going on, or if he doesn't realize how mean he's being until it comes out of his kid's mouth.