Taking a Vacation from Friendships

[DistanceNotDefense]

I am just exhausted and I think I'm done for a while.

Coming Out of the FOG, it's become clear I attract the same type of friendship (with fellow women) over and over.

I've posted in this sub forum about it enough times, and the only resolution I can think of is to just stop and withdraw from these flesh and blood friendships altogether (thankful for the few unproblematic and very rewarding ones I do have, IRL and online!).

It feels...very right to do this.

But also, wrong.

Of course I feel guilt too. Like I'm cutting people off. but the only way you could further rein this horse in I think would be shoving it straight back into the barn, and I think that's what I'm going to do.

Especially because this horse stinks and I'm tired of riding it!

I'm retiring and taking a vacation from figuring out friendships and other peoples' needs when they can't bother to figure out mine. (But expect me to do it for them, unbidden).

It feels like no matter what boundaries I do create around my time, effort, kindness, self-care, and empathy, the feedback I get from these friendships is "it's not enough. You're distant. You should call more. You should text more."

I have my own life. I have my own stress. I have my own tiredness. I didn't pick up the phone because I have 2 businesses to run.

How about instead of framing it like "hey, where are you to take care of me?" At least be direct, or say "hey how are you?"

3 friendships over the past 3 years going like this. on top of the heaping loss of narcissistic family and my "supposed" best friend.

Last night I attended what I thought would be a low pressure and easy-going gathering, with a woman I was getting to know better there. She has not been responsive or in touch much for months. She even bailed last minute on my birthday after including her in a 12 person reservation she said she would attend.

Come to find out (thanks to her passive aggressive remarks in front of mixed company - "I just feel if you care about somebody, you should call them") it had been in my court all along to call her?

Even after telling her very early on, "I am just not a phone person."

Even though she simply asked me to text her and that would be fine. Even though she sometimes doesn't reply to those texts.

Which is funny, as I see her offer her number to others, and say "text me anytime!"

Why am I put in a special category of person that needs to work harder (and go against who I am) to be her friend, when in some cases she puts in 0 effort?

I had a great time at the event.

But feel emotionally hungover and triggered today, dealing with yet another person who reminds me of family.

It was also one of my NC family members' bday this past week. I'm just tired of feeling like and being reminded of what I freely offer is never enough (it was never enough for FOO).

It's hard when you feel like you have been SO conditioned to cater to narcissistic family, that you wonder of going "cold turkey" on multiple friendships is the only way to go.

No matter how sad it sounds.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

I've decided the same. I am going to be moving into an apartment soon, our home was sold, and now next goal to expedite this divorce.  I have similar friends that are also very narcissistic....And a brother that has some tendencies.  I'm giving myself a year to just be....see what I enjoy....fine more hobbies....travel by myself.

I need a break, and healing time so I can then find more positive people to invite into my life.

[GentleSoul]

Thank you for sharing, I very much relate.  The emotional hangover. 

All my old unhealthy friends have drifted away as I am no longer feeding them what they want from me.

I have two healthy close friends, both are assets in my life and are working their own personal growth journey.   

I want to wait until I am further along in my own healing and personal growth journey before even thinking about making any new friends.  I don't want to end up with any more unhealthy ones.   

I have read that this is a normal part of our healing journey, as we change, the old people become intolerable to us then there is often a gap before the new healthy ones come in. 

[blacksheep7]

I also relate as we all go through this phase coming Out of the FOG, realizing who and what kind of friends we have, narcs or codependents.  I managed to cut off a couple but I have one remaining, a codependent.  I am starting to think that she might be or has narc traits.  I had a car accident two weeks ago, I'm fine, the car scrap.  When she called, never asked me anything about the update of it all, just wanted to chitchat.  She doesn't remember half the stuff I talk about, asks the same questions.  She lives in the country so is isolated cause she's not vaxed.  I am. 
Would only gossip about that and her dysfunctional family of choice.  I put a stop to that telling her I wasn't interested in circular events  as well as her view of not being vaxed.  She said that she didn't want our friendship to end because of that.

There is not much left to talk about plus I realize that we are no longer on the same wave length.  She keeps on calling every two days even though I don't answer or when I do, I tell her that I am busy, cause I am. 

I'm having trouble identifying her as codependent or narcissist.  Last time we were on the phone for an hour I ended the conversation, she said to me « I guess you have other things to do than chitchat».

[GentleSoul]

Thank you, BlackSheep.

Something you said really clarified it for me.

Toxic people gossip or have circular conversations or talk about their family/spouse whereas healthy people talk about "things".  So like projects they have or events they are doing, some future plans they are working towards.  Maybe some fitness interests or a theatre show they are going to or maybe a book they are reading.  Things not people. 

I notice that very strongly.

[blacksheep7]

GentleSoul, you are correct and made a good point.  I appreciate.

I was looking up the difference between narcissism and codependent, they usually go hand in hand.  Narcissists are codependent.  I just got my answer.

I keep busy, have projects and hobbies like you said.  She has none.

[GentleSoul]

GentleSoul, you are correct and made a good point.  I appreciate.

I was looking up the difference between narcissism and codependent, they usually go hand in hand.  Narcissists are codependent.  I just got my answer.

I keep busy, have projects and hobbies like you said.  She has none.

I am pleased it helped you too. 

Glad you got the answer to your query.  I find each piece of knowledge I learn to be a great help.  Brings me more freedom and clarity.  Which in turn means more inner peace.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Thank you Gentle Soul, Blacksheep, and Plant Flowers for chiming in.

It brings me comfort and makes me feel less alone that all of you have come to similar decisions. I'm thinking maybe I do have to go more cold turkey. But get worried it is only out of emotion and thus bad.

DH doesn't exactly validate me on how I perceive these friendships. He makes it seem like I'm overanalyzing (but does think these friends don't see my value) - but it was lack of analysis of everyone around me that led me into FOG and a complete exhausted collapse in the first place, running around pleasing everyone in my life, and I'm still rebuilding myself from that.

I also fell ill this weekend, and I can't help but feel like maybe it was because of this friend interaction, a flashback. I don't want to feel ill like this again.

Thank you Gentle Soul for saying that about taking a break to heal before finding new friends. It seems like I'm still not healed enough to attract healthy people. I've made some changes that I thought would be immediately effective, but I think I still need to work on some things - including being more discriminating about my social time.

I feel like I'm meeting new people, but I realize I'm only deepening friendships with old acquaintances...and it's *really* not going well so far. I guess this would count as a turnover of old friends who were drawn to me cuz of all my codependent stuff and I need to see that.

I also super agree with what you said Gentle Soul about toxic people talking about other people. When this happens with me, I get both tense and bored at the same time. But old fogged me feels like the good person thing to do is to listen intently and support.  There were a couple times this happened at the gathering the other day and I did have the opportunity to leave but I did not, and I'm kicking myself.

This last gathering I was at, I also got way excited talking more about things and concepts. I got bored when it was talking about people in the community. It also seemed like I talked with more men than women. The women wanted to talk about other people. The men wanted to talk about ideas and concepts....I don't think it's always that way but I can't help but notice that.

Blacksheep your car incident reminds me a lot of my friend. I would be incredulous if my friend didn't ask me about something like that. She sounds like a codependent, but I think narcissism does hide at the root of codependency (and it drives covert narcissism).

I'm always shocked by these types of people. They come off as so obtuse but then treat you like you're being the obtuse one.

Your friend being upset about not getting her chitchat without even realizing the way more important things going on in your life. My friend, for being passive aggressively dissatisfied about not being in touch when she has been remote, flaky, and unavailable for months - no call/no showing on a birthday reservation and not responding to texts when I'm in a crisis.

There is no self-reflection. I do not understand these people.

[daughter]

Posted last year about my imploded 30 year BFF friendship, which suddenly self-destructed during Covid, me chastised and dumped because I "wasn't providing sufficient care" as friend recovered from minor accident requiring stitches.  I was calling daily, 30+ minute chats, but not visiting, not delivering meals.  She's retired, and retired DH home too. But me, still working, still dealing with myriad of issues, wasn't paying enough attention to HER.  That's either gross self-entitlement, or cluelessness.

Year later, still don't miss this BFF friendship, though we'd been a near-daily contact for YEARS.  Whew!  It's actually relief to me.

[treesgrowslowly]

It's pretty clear that you've outgrown their petty way.

Instead of telling yourself that you are done with IRL friendships for a while, just remind yourself, you are done with THOSE behaviours. I mean, those are all immature behaviours, at some point a lot of us will just get SO tired and done with the petty way that immature people treat us. We get tired of treating them well, when they can't return the favour.

The only people who can truly tolerate them long term, are other immature people. The world is full of them. They are still in high school, mentally and emotionally. They create a lot of drama.

It sucks because it is really hard to find people who have healthy ways of communicating and socializing. But the solution isn't to keep socializing with people who treat us poorly.

Trees

[blacksheep7]

I would like to have the opinion of anyone here.... I don't want to take over your post DistanceNotDefence but it remains on the same subject and could be beneficial.

How honest can you be about your codependent relationship with a bff?  I have a feeling that it is an all or nothing situation with her.
The one  that calls every two days if I don't answer.  Today I went on Fakebook messenger, she left me a mssg saying that I succeeded to make her feel like shit, that I judged her. She won't let anyone make her feel that way again, ever. Asked me where has my open spirit has  gone?  Also saying that it is the government that is seperating us.

On her last call Tuesday after xxx calls not answered, I told her that I was leaving for errands and that I was pretty busy these days...same old line but also a fact.  I said that not being vaxed kept her isolated at home in the country and in return has no life. She is unemployed for the winter and had mentionned that she was going to take courses but it seems it's not the case right now.

Is this too much, too honest?  Maybe,  but as any relationship we should be open (unless pd or codependent) about our views and opinions if the relationship is going downhill and that I'm not interested in a codependent one.
  I answered back saying that my comment was a general one and that it is not the government that seperates us but or own views on the matter.  I also mentionned that I am not interested in drama convos anymore which leaves not too much to talk about if our calls are too frequent, only filling a void.
I realized that knowing too much about each other is not always healthy, especially in codependency.

I would appreciate feedback.  How would you handle it?

[DistanceNotDefense]

I would like to have the opinion of anyone here....How honest can you be about your codependent relationship with a bff? 

I guess everyone's definition or expectation of a best friend is different. For me I would expect that I could be completely honest with a BFF. And if they couldn't handle me being honest (even if it's stuff they don't want to hear) I would rethink the relationship - what's the point if you have to keep so many feelings stuffed down?

Honest is being honest, not "making people feel like shit and judging them" on purpose. Your friend seems to value her being able to speak freely and honestly what's on her mind. But when you do, it's not what she wants to hear and she judges it.

What would I do? Old me would probably feel terrible and maybe try to fix it, or cut them off forever. New me would do what Vickie Tidwell Palmer describes in her "Beyond Bitchy" Podcast on setting boundaries: keep your distance, relegate them to a lower tier of friendship, and blast them with a "wall of pleasant" during every interaction until they get the message to finally leave you alone...you're not getting as much out of the intimacy as they are.

[blacksheep7]

I would like to have the opinion of anyone here....How honest can you be about your codependent relationship with a bff? 

I guess everyone's definition or expectation of a best friend is different. For me I would expect that I could be completely honest with a BFF. And if they couldn't handle me being honest (even if it's stuff they don't want to hear) I would rethink the relationship - what's the point if you have to keep so many feelings stuffed down?

Honest is being honest, not "making people feel like shit and judging them" on purpose. Your friend seems to value her being able to speak freely and honestly what's on her mind. But when you do, it's not what she wants to hear and she judges it.

What would I do? Old me would probably feel terrible and maybe try to fix it, or cut them off forever. New me would do what Vickie Tidwell Palmer describes in her "Beyond Bitchy" Podcast on setting boundaries: keep your distance, relegate them to a lower tier of friendship, and blast them with a "wall of pleasant" during every interaction until they get the message to finally leave you alone...you're not getting as much out of the intimacy as they are.

Thanks DistanceNotDefense.
I don't know why I asked the question when I knew that it was the right thing to do, be honest.  I guess I needed validation for a 30+ year friendship.
I was caught up in this codependency friendship a few years back.  I tried lc, not answering all her calls and one day she left me a message saying something quite similar to our recent conversation about not being on the same wave length, something along the line of her feeling inferior to me....again, ending the friendship
I wrote her an email to not have our conversation escalate, mentioning that it triggered me like my foo when I wouldn't answer her  three calls before noon.  She understood then.

The codependency made it way back slowly. I hate having someone always depending on me for their emptiness/void. She bid me farewell again, the all or nothing. I will not try to repair it as it can not be repaired.  It is ingrained in her, her relationships with 30 yr old son, partner and his kids.  She knows that I've worked hard to avoid relationships of that kind. I even helped and  recommended books.  Always had excuses of some sort to not read up on the subject.

Her defense is that I am not open to differences as before saying that I see people being inferior beings to myself if they do not have similar thoughts.  Our friendship can not blossom  Wow, inferior really???  is what I replied.
It is not a question of our relationship blossooming for me but mostly for her which she should do on her own. Her calls  never short and my fuse got shorter because of that.  I have projects and things I like to do to occupy me even though I am retired, what I had envisioned younger.  Coming Out of the FOG took much of my time, the greiving, healing but Very rewarding. 
It all comes down to her  not being  vaxed as well as all of her tribe.  They are not always cautious and some caught Covid twice.   Once we see, we can not unsee

She is on Fakebook continously and posting cartoons of Liberty/the vaxed versus not vaxed. That right there is provoking.   Has not removed me as a friend, knowing her she is waiting for me to do it first which I will eventually.

I reread your first post at the top and I have the same feelings...........will be taking a vacation from friendships or making new ones.  It's scary to get needy ones, again.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Thanks DistanceNotDefense.
I don't know why I asked the question when I knew that it was the right thing to do, be honest.  I guess I needed validation for a 30+ year friendship.

I have the same problem. It feels good and right in my gut to be honest, to distance myself from a certain friend, etc. it's like I know the answer but something trips me up, and I will feel doubtful about risking losing this person....but what am I losing? Not much. I don't know why I'm so afraid. I don't know why I pity them so much.

The self-doubt is probably thanks to a childhood filled with invalidation! I'm learning I need to trust my gut.

[D.]

I just wanted to add that I had to go through a similar process.  I like your "vacation" term.  I took a break for about two years from my friends because I just felt so confused.  I didn't know yet what was healthy, what was not, what boundaries I wanted, etc.  So I went quiet, took a job that kept me busy and worked on healing and figuring things out.  I used work as the primary reason with people.  Then, when I was ready I reached out and am pleased with those with whom I re-connected.  My closest friends with whom I wanted connection again understood and we actually re-connected in a way that is more meaningful.  A couple of people I did not add back in and now I can see why the relationship was draining and I needed distance.  And now I am more discerning with friends.  It's become empowering to set boundaries and be myself with new people and notice the healthy people respond appropriately.  I applaud your ability to recognize and respond to your need to take that vacation and figure things out.

[feralcat]

Wow. A timely thread ! More to do with a visit over the weekend to SIL for e, than friends - although I have to say I'm in a similar boat re being in transition from less than healthy , codependent , friendships to ( hopefully) better ones. Suffice it to say that I'm happy with my own company at the moment. And I'm actively re engaging in counselling.
My recent homework is to read The Dance Of Anger. Might be relevant to this thread ?

I'm grateful to Distance for the suggestion of Beyond Bitchy. Next on my reading list ! I wasn't bought up to have boundaries so I'm having to learn , the hard way.
Also to Blacksheep for the phrase 'narcissists are codependent'. A simple way of stating a fact that has wide repercussions.

I've been able to say to my unPdM that what other people do isn't our business. Which is why we don't talk much any more. Ditto the rest of my FOO. No gossip/drama , no conversation to be had.
Unfortunately my ILs are the same. The enmeshment is amazing. But it's harder to say anything like  that to them, especially as my H would hate it. (sG). So it's MC all the way. Or silence.

Ps. When I've become disillusioned with a friendship, usually because I've found it to be unreciprocated re support, it's been easily as hurtful as a family breakdown. We choose our friends. And can end up feeling distrustful of our judgement IME. Self esteem drops etc etc

[DistanceNotDefense]

I just wanted to add that I had to go through a similar process.  I like your "vacation" term.  I took a break for about two years from my friends because I just felt so confused.  I didn't know yet what was healthy, what was not, what boundaries I wanted, etc.  So I went quiet, took a job that kept me busy and worked on healing and figuring things out.  I used work as the primary reason with people.  Then, when I was ready I reached out and am pleased with those with whom I re-connected.  My closest friends with whom I wanted connection again understood and we actually re-connected in a way that is more meaningful.  A couple of people I did not add back in and now I can see why the relationship was draining and I needed distance.  And now I am more discerning with friends.  It's become empowering to set boundaries and be myself with new people and notice the healthy people respond appropriately.  I applaud your ability to recognize and respond to your need to take that vacation and figure things out.

Thank you D. this is very validating for me! I think I'm in the same phase right now, I just feel like focusing on me, work, projects, other things.

I have yet another friend who reached out recently about catching up, she has been behaving just as oddly as the subject person of this thread. I offered that she could come visit when she likes but that I would not be making the long trip I've already made many times to see her.

Even caring a little bit about whether she follows through or not (she's gone silent for days in response, which has been the theme) has mostly slipped my mind. I just don't care and I won't invest my time or energy to make an it happen anymore - that's something they can do. And I don't care either way.

That's progress.