Spoke to mother for first time in 5 1/2 years and here’s how it went

[Mintstripes]

Mintstripes, I am glad this went so well. Glorious is a great word. Thank you for sharing and for giving a view of how such a transaction can end on a positive note.   

You mention "Isn't it curious how we can change (become more confident, evolve, thrive in our lives) yet the PD parents stay exactly the same, not having learned a damn thing despite the passing of time?"  I reflect on the same each time I have any contact with my parents. They so quickly resort back to the same decades old phrases, guilting, and projections as though it is hard-coded programming. Amazing if you realize you used to play along, take it on, live under the heaviness and accept it as normal. The healing and growth I believe is extraordinary.

Blueberry: Yes! Their immediate return to old tactics and speech floors me. No personal growth or self-awareness whatsoever.

Do you ever wonder what sort of person your mother was when she was young, before she had you? I sometimes think about that, ie: how disordered were they back then?

[GentleSoul]

I feel our generation now are very blessed regarding personal growth resources. 

In the last ten/twenty years the resources have grown hugely.  When I first became interested in it there was only a couple of books - Melody Beattie and Robin Norwood spring to mind. 

Now we have You Tube, the recovery part of TikTok, websites, books everywhere, Face Book groups, forums like this and the list goes on.  It is commonly talked about. 

I feel my PD mum was the way she was because of the generations before her that taught her to be that way.  She knew no other way of being.  I was taught to be that way too

BUT

the difference for me is that I found the strength to realise I needed to change.  I also have the resources available to me to do so.

I have had to completely relearn my attitude, my behaviours, my boundary settings.   

I think with people with personality disorders the most hard wired part is the defence mechanism.  Meaning the part that tells them they are ok and it is everyone else who is wrong.  That has to be protected at all costs.  To admit or even be able to slightly see that maybe their outlook and behaviour is wrong cannot be allowed.   

The breakthrough comes when a tiny bit a light somehow enters.  Change becomes possible.

Without that, the personal disordered person is going to remain the same.  So then we use Grey Rock, Yellow Rock, Medium Chill, Detach with Love etc.  Thank goodness also for all these wonderful resources helping us know how to interact with people with PDs in a less damaging way to ourselves. 

[Boat Babe]

Nailed it there GS.

[GentleSoul]

Nailed it there GS.

Thank you.   

[M0009803]

Glorious is right! You handled it beautifully mintstripes.  You talked to her from a position of strength and I'm sure it felt wonderful.

I went NC very temporarily and now I'm vlc (well more now they are in dire straights) I should have gone full NC years ago too. I'm glad you're feeling no regrets over the interaction. You did what you wanted to do and I applaud you!

Thank you, Sunny! How are you managing the vlc? You sound like someone who is good at setting boundaries.

Also, coming from a position of strength is incredible, after being child then young adult under their thumb, to a somewhat nervous and very reactive young woman (can you blame me?!). Now I’m grown, nearing 40, a mother, fully independent (and have been for many, many years now), and I don’t fear them at all. It’s taken me so long to get here and I’m relieved and proud.

It’s incredible but also so predictable to me that my mother did not once say sorry. At all. Literally not at all. You would think that after 5 1/2 years one would take the opportunity to attempt to right wrongs, take responsibility, express regret, admit mistakes, admit their part in the problem. But no. Dysfunction doesn’t allow for healthy communication or relationships.

Side note. When we spoke, her voice sounded so much like my grandmother’s (who passed when I was young). It was jarring.

My own mother is a bit like yours.

They will never apologise because they think they did nothing wrong.  They actually think the opposite deep down, that you were a difficult child and they did what they had to do.    They will just tell you what you want to hear so that they can move on.

Having a conversation about this with them is totally pointless.   They will simply revert back to type (circular arguments and hamster wheel of fake "I am sorry BUT..." so there is no closure).

I came to the conclusion after a few years of self-reflection, that while I cannot "fix" the years I lost due to the abuse I suffered as a child, I can make sure that my offspring does not suffer the same fate.

Nothing makes me happier to see my daughter (2.5 years old now) thrive, without the volatility and instability of abusive GPs.

Small children may not understand nuance and behaviors completely due to their age, but they absolutely absorb it.  Having GPs around that create tension, put you down, and put your offspring down, has definite long-term effects on the emotional development of children.

That's why I concluded: the best gift you can give your own children is to raise them without the dysfunction coming from the GPs.

[Hilltop]

They will never apologise because they think they did nothing wrong.  They actually think the opposite deep down, that you were a difficult child and they did what they had to do.    They will just tell you what you want to hear so that they can move on.

This part stood out to me because my parents have also said I am difficult.  For the longest time I took this personally.  Now I see that they can't accept that they find their child difficult or don't like me or have a dysfunctional family system with SG/GC, so it's easier to blame me, the child as being difficult.

I can see now why my parents have enjoyed seeing me fail or needed me to be unsuccessful or why they don't seem happy if I do well.  It doesn't fit their narrative.  They need me to fail to stay the difficult child, they need me to react to their insults so I remain the difficult child.  They don't need to look at what they themselves are doing or saying because their focus is on me being difficult and hence solely to blame for the problems.  Within their own families growing up they had SG/GC and they can't see how they have simply continued that within our family.

Same as you I see I cannot fix any of this, they won't apologise as they don't see they have done anything wrong.  All I can do is move on from it.

[Hazel Eyes]

They will never apologise because they think they did nothing wrong.  They actually think the opposite deep down, that you were a difficult child and they did what they had to do.

I can relate to this. My Cluster B nightmare of a father treated me like I was one of the worst things that ever happened to him. He would tell me when I was in contact with him that I should be ashamed of how I treated him. That he never asked to have me (he thought my mother was sterile due to female reproductive issues). And that I owed him for everything he did for me. At times, he told me he did not love me when he got extra angry. Which happened a lot. Yet it was he who treated my mother, younger brother, and me like crap with his mental, emotional, and drunken physical abuse. His second family also (he remarried after mom decided to divorce him after 29 years of his bs, which is a whole other story). It blows my mind how he ruined two families, and he was still claiming to be the victim up until he died.

I went no contact with him twice in my life because of this. The last time was until his death due to COVID complications in August 2021. I am his oldest and he never reached out to me once during my 2 NCs. That solidified in my mind and heart how he felt about me. I knew it all along but did not want to admit it. He saw me as a very difficult child, even though the rest of the people around us thought my brother and I were good kids and adults.

PD parents only see what they want to see and the enablers do too. My enabling Mom was a huge part of the problem at the time. I am very thankful she eventually woke up. I was NC with her until she left my dad for good. Better late than never, I guess. But she suffers a tremendous amount of guilt as a result. I am thankful, though, that we are able to work on healing the parts of our relationship that horrible man tried to steal from us.

I feel sad for the many others who have gone through similar experiences. I have always known that I am not the only one. Yet It makes my heart heavy thinking about it. 

[Mintstripes]

Hey everyone,
Thanks for your latest responses. I need to catch up. I have been dealing with an infestation in my apartment and am all out of sorts.

[donutmoonpanda]

I can't even begin to say how thankful I am for you sharing this. It is incredible to see (read) someone so clear-headed in action.

Now, these relatives can't stand my father and are the opposite of flying monkeys when it comes to him. EXCEPT they make the grave mistake of seeing my mother as a separate person. They think she's some poor victim. This has been the family narrative FOREVER. "Poor MintStripes's mom! She must be a saint to put up with MintStripe's dad! Poor, poor her." She may be a victim, but she's also responsible for her own stupidity. She is also a dangerous enabler who will NEVER learn.

This really resonated with me. My parents had the same dynamic yet my father did leave my mother... but 20 years later, my mom is still the victim, the enabler, still carries a torch for my dad. She doesn't acknowledge the abuse and doesn't take responsibility for all her terrible choices. She still has most people fooled too. They think she's the sweet nice one. Sometimes it doesn't matter the context, the circumstances. A bad parent isn't bad *because* of whatever. They're just bad parents. Period.

[Mintstripes]

Hey everyone,
I still have some catching up to do with your responses. I've had a very overwhelming couple of weeks. We had a bedbug infestation here at home so naturally I was freaking out and trying to deal with everything asap. I'm cautiously optimistic... I don't wish this on anyone!!!

Short update: my mother texted me a couple of days ago asking how I was, asking a few questions about my DD. I had a response pretty much prepared weeks ago.

I told her that we are fine, and that I hope that knowing that we are doing well has brought her some comfort. Then I said that I am not sure I want to resume a relationship at the moment, and to take care of herself. I guess I still felt the need to soften the blow? Maybe that's conditioning, idk.

I did lots of processing after the last time we spoke (for the first time in all those years, mind you). I realized how many demands my mother had made during that one phone call. She wants:
1) to be involved as a grandma
2) me to talk to my unPDf (tried the same tired tactics that got her cut off in the first place)
3) pictures of my DD (dream on...)
4) for my unPDf to be a proper grandfather
5) information about us, basically. That much was very clear.
6) wants my DD to "know them"

Of course, no apology or sincere statement of accountability was offered. No self-reflection at all as to why I had been MIA for FIVE AND A HALF YEARS 

Quelle surprise.

I'm floored at the fact that she essentially made all these demands as if nothing has happened. It's really telling that she was so adamant about unPDf being a "grandfather" and even tried to get me to talk to him on the phone. She hasn't changed at all.

[moglow]

That really is sad - 5 1/2 years and no insight anywhere on the horizon. No consideration of or apology for something that clearly went sideways, straight into demands again with them being grandparents. I dunno, what about them trying being parents first? No? Okay. Dude really - I see how things went with ME, and you want me to subject my child to that, erase myself as her parent? NO.

Bless you, Mintstripes. I can't imagine that was easy to digest on any level, but I can appreciate that you tried to soften it as best you can.

[Call Me Cordelia]

That list of demands, oy vey. And your relatives' assumptions that all is forgiven and forgotten. No. That's not how this works. Even in the best case scenario, you do not simply throw a child into the middle of a tenuous reconciliation. Fix the adult relationship so that it can be stable and dependable. Which takes a good long time. And then, and only then, introducing the children to the mix. Fully supervised at first. With the parents fully in charge of the timeline. Because what is good for the child here? Demanding involvement and "information" without doing that rebuilding work shows zero care for the well-being of that child, and concern only for, well, guess who.  So right out of the gate, we have a non-starter. You blew it, "grandma".

For what it's worth, those are my terms for when and if the time ever comes for ending NC before our kids are adults.

And the pictures thing is a thing my IL's continue to try for every so often. I don't understand it, but it makes me feel vomitous so I continue to nope that one too. I can't think of a healthy reason to provide them, anyway.

[Mintstripes]

Glorious is right! You handled it beautifully mintstripes.  You talked to her from a position of strength and I'm sure it felt wonderful.

I went NC very temporarily and now I'm vlc (well more now they are in dire straights) I should have gone full NC years ago too. I'm glad you're feeling no regrets over the interaction. You did what you wanted to do and I applaud you!

Thank you, Sunny! How are you managing the vlc? You sound like someone who is good at setting boundaries.

Also, coming from a position of strength is incredible, after being child then young adult under their thumb, to a somewhat nervous and very reactive young woman (can you blame me?!). Now I'm grown, nearing 40, a mother, fully independent (and have been for many, many years now), and I don't fear them at all. It's taken me so long to get here and I'm relieved and proud.

It's incredible but also so predictable to me that my mother did not once say sorry. At all. Literally not at all. You would think that after 5 1/2 years one would take the opportunity to attempt to right wrongs, take responsibility, express regret, admit mistakes, admit their part in the problem. But no. Dysfunction doesn't allow for healthy communication or relationships.

Side note. When we spoke, her voice sounded so much like my grandmother's (who passed when I was young). It was jarring.

My own mother is a bit like yours.

They will never apologise because they think they did nothing wrong.  They actually think the opposite deep down, that you were a difficult child and they did what they had to do.    They will just tell you what you want to hear so that they can move on.

Having a conversation about this with them is totally pointless.   They will simply revert back to type (circular arguments and hamster wheel of fake "I am sorry BUT..." so there is no closure).

I came to the conclusion after a few years of self-reflection, that while I cannot "fix" the years I lost due to the abuse I suffered as a child, I can make sure that my offspring does not suffer the same fate.

Nothing makes me happier to see my daughter (2.5 years old now) thrive, without the volatility and instability of abusive GPs.

Small children may not understand nuance and behaviors completely due to their age, but they absolutely absorb it.  Having GPs around that create tension, put you down, and put your offspring down, has definite long-term effects on the emotional development of children.

That's why I concluded: the best gift you can give your own children is to raise them without the dysfunction coming from the GPs.

Precisely this. They don't think they're wrong and they never will. They will blame everyone under the sun except for themselves. Conversations are pointless and they only want to talk to you so they can have access to their "grandchildren". You, their actual
Child, is discarded. Old news.

[Mintstripes]

They will never apologise because they think they did nothing wrong.  They actually think the opposite deep down, that you were a difficult child and they did what they had to do.    They will just tell you what you want to hear so that they can move on.

This part stood out to me because my parents have also said I am difficult.  For the longest time I took this personally.  Now I see that they can't accept that they find their child difficult or don't like me or have a dysfunctional family system with SG/GC, so it's easier to blame me, the child as being difficult.

I can see now why my parents have enjoyed seeing me fail or needed me to be unsuccessful or why they don't seem happy if I do well.  It doesn't fit their narrative.  They need me to fail to stay the difficult child, they need me to react to their insults so I remain the difficult child.  They don't need to look at what they themselves are doing or saying because their focus is on me being difficult and hence solely to blame for the problems.  Within their own families growing up they had SG/GC and they can't see how they have simply continued that within our family.

Same as you I see I cannot fix any of this, they won't apologise as they don't see they have done anything wrong.  All I can do is move on from it.

Hilltop: this is another shining example of how they follow the same playbook.
One of my parents' favorite words for me was  "difficult". The others were "selfish", "spoiled", and "abnormal". I was also "poison", a "monster", and had the "tongue of a viper". Nice, right? Real nice.

Of course, they never speak of any of this. How convenient.

[Mintstripes]

They will never apologise because they think they did nothing wrong.  They actually think the opposite deep down, that you were a difficult child and they did what they had to do.

I can relate to this. My Cluster B nightmare of a father treated me like I was one of the worst things that ever happened to him. He would tell me when I was in contact with him that I should be ashamed of how I treated him. That he never asked to have me (he thought my mother was sterile due to female reproductive issues). And that I owed him for everything he did for me. At times, he told me he did not love me when he got extra angry. Which happened a lot. Yet it was he who treated my mother, younger brother, and me like crap with his mental, emotional, and drunken physical abuse. His second family also (he remarried after mom decided to divorce him after 29 years of his bs, which is a whole other story). It blows my mind how he ruined two families, and he was still claiming to be the victim up until he died.

I went no contact with him twice in my life because of this. The last time was until his death due to COVID complications in August 2021. I am his oldest and he never reached out to me once during my 2 NCs. That solidified in my mind and heart how he felt about me. I knew it all along but did not want to admit it. He saw me as a very difficult child, even though the rest of the people around us thought my brother and I were good kids and adults.

PD parents only see what they want to see and the enablers do too. My enabling Mom was a huge part of the problem at the time. I am very thankful she eventually woke up. I was NC with her until she left my dad for good. Better late than never, I guess. But she suffers a tremendous amount of guilt as a result. I am thankful, though, that we are able to work on healing the parts of our relationship that horrible man tried to steal from us.

I feel sad for the many others who have gone through similar experiences. I have always known that I am not the only one. Yet It makes my heart heavy thinking about it. 

Hazel: I'm so sorry your F was so disordered and abusive. Mine was/is extremely similar. My theory is that he never wanted kids (he'd often say he wished I was never born) but that my mother put pressure on him and he ended up just going along with it so he wouldn't lose her. He told my GC brother (when he was in his 20's) that he never wanted kids but thought he might when he met our mother, but that it didn't change his mind. Ok, so you're saying you really hated having kids because you didn't want us. Why would you even tell your children that?! No one asks to be born. It's simply cruel and horrible.

I think his hatred of becoming a parent was projected onto me, the firstborn and a girl, but that his saving grace was that my brother was a boy.

[Mintstripes]

I can't even begin to say how thankful I am for you sharing this. It is incredible to see (read) someone so clear-headed in action.

Now, these relatives can't stand my father and are the opposite of flying monkeys when it comes to him. EXCEPT they make the grave mistake of seeing my mother as a separate person. They think she's some poor victim. This has been the family narrative FOREVER. "Poor MintStripes's mom! She must be a saint to put up with MintStripe's dad! Poor, poor her." She may be a victim, but she's also responsible for her own stupidity. She is also a dangerous enabler who will NEVER learn.

This really resonated with me. My parents had the same dynamic yet my father did leave my mother... but 20 years later, my mom is still the victim, the enabler, still carries a torch for my dad. She doesn't acknowledge the abuse and doesn't take responsibility for all her terrible choices. She still has most people fooled too. They think she's the sweet nice one. Sometimes it doesn't matter the context, the circumstances. A bad parent isn't bad *because* of whatever. They're just bad parents. Period.

Donut, I am so glad my post was helpful in some way!!

It's amazing how they can fool so many outsiders. It's also amazing how people can be so gullible, though. A friend of mine is always talking about how everyone thinks she and her husband are "couple goals", but really, they're stuck in a loveless, sexless marriage and are just staying together "for the kids"  .

My parents have been married nearly FIFTY years. They had me after being married for a while (I'm not yet 40). There's no way I can untangle half a century of dysfunctional dynamics and abusive conditioning. At this point, my enabler M has unPDf brain rot.

[Mintstripes]

That really is sad - 5 1/2 years and no insight anywhere on the horizon. No consideration of or apology for something that clearly went sideways, straight into demands again with them being grandparents. I dunno, what about them trying being parents first? No? Okay. Dude really - I see how things went with ME, and you want me to subject my child to that, erase myself as her parent? NO.

Bless you, Mintstripes. I can't imagine that was easy to digest on any level, but I can appreciate that you tried to soften it as best you can.

It's truly incredible that a person can get to the age of seventy-something and not have any self-awareness or the merest ounce of clarity regarding how their actions and choices led to becoming estranged with their own child. But of course, I'm chopped liver as they say. They discard their own child and prioritize the grandchild (except they need us for access... funny, that).

One of the things that really struck me when I spoke to my M was how she seemed not to grasp how much time had really gone by, or rather, how much must have changed since. Of course she must, but she was asking me questions about my divorce as if it had just happened. Meanwhile, I have long since moved on and rebuilt my life. I mean, I left my unPDx over FOUR years ago. Does she think I am sitting here wallowing and living in squalor? I think I did a good job of grey rocking. But one of her comments was "well I hope you're able to support yourself and DD." Uhh what do you think I've been doing all this time, lady? Living in the streets and subway because I'm divorced and a single mother? Laughable.

[Mintstripes]

That list of demands, oy vey. And your relatives' assumptions that all is forgiven and forgotten. No. That's not how this works. Even in the best case scenario, you do not simply throw a child into the middle of a tenuous reconciliation. Fix the adult relationship so that it can be stable and dependable. Which takes a good long time. And then, and only then, introducing the children to the mix. Fully supervised at first. With the parents fully in charge of the timeline. Because what is good for the child here? Demanding involvement and "information" without doing that rebuilding work shows zero care for the well-being of that child, and concern only for, well, guess who.  So right out of the gate, we have a non-starter. You blew it, "grandma".

For what it's worth, those are my terms for when and if the time ever comes for ending NC before our kids are adults.

And the pictures thing is a thing my IL's continue to try for every so often. I don't understand it, but it makes me feel vomitous so I continue to nope that one too. I can't think of a healthy reason to provide them, anyway.

Cordelia: Exactly, you bring up some excellent points. A gradual approach doesn't work for them because they want to be rewarded with access to grandchildren immediately, regardless of their years-long actions and behavior. They feel entitled to it. What do you mean, you're giving me consequences? This isn't fair! I WANT MY GRANDBABY!

You're right, they don't care about how this affects a child. My DD is school-age now. How weird would it be for me to just ambush her with a basically brand-new "grandma" she doesn't remember or know at all? I would never do that to her. I would never pretend that everything was just fine and dandy.

My M has not replied yet, of course.

Which is telling in a whole other way. If your own CHILD tells you they're not sure if they're ready to resume a relationship, you probably have some major soul searching to do.

[moglow]

But ... it's been five years. They've have no relationship with her. The whole idea of "grandparent's rights" sound all cool in the big picture, but reality: You separated from them for good reason. Your JOB is to protect your child from harm. Stands to reason if you remove yourself, your child is part and parcel of that removal. Just for kicks and giggles, I'd research grandparent's rights in your state, see if they exist at all. It's not a given but many like to hold that out there as some holy grail.

When my older brother had a daughter he was very clear with me that she was never to go to mommie dearest without me there. He didn't trust md to treat her any differently than she had me. We traveled as a pair or it didn't happen. Turned out md didn't really show interest or put forth much effort anyway, but we had a plan nonetheless. We had a responsibility to that child, first and foremost, md assumptions be damned.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I've done more freaked out research than I care to admit. It's rare such rights are granted. Usually it's a case of a contentious divorce where the parent with custody is keeping the child away from her former in-laws, who used to live with the child until recently or something like that. The guiding principle in family court is child's best interest and stability. Grandparents suing their own child even more rarely goes well for them. Because, imagine that, they're sticking the child in the middle of an obviously volatile relationship. Children have to go with their parent. Your mom (and mine!) who haven't seen the children in five years and had a tenuous relationship before that haven't any case whatsoever.