Spoke to mother for first time in 5 1/2 years and here’s how it went

[Mintstripes]

Hey Out of the FOG fam,

I still check in here from time to time and am glad to see some familiar faces.

I went completely NC with my abusive unPD father and enabler mother about 5 1/2 years ago. I went through a bitter divorce during that time and slowly got back on my feet. My daughter and I are now happy and thriving, I’ve gone back to school, and I don’t take anyone’s crap.

This month, I decided to reach out to my mother after all these years. Not because I think she’s changed or woken up and left my father. Basically, what it boils down to is that she now elderly and I did not want her to die one day without ever having spoken to me again.

She did a lot of crying in the beginning and asked how we have been. She said she printed a headshot of mine she found on a professional website, framed it, hung it in the house, and would periodically look at it in hopes that we would speak again someday. A little weird if you ask me, but this gives you an idea of what my mother does.

Now the greatest part of this is that I felt so incredibly empowered by this conversation because I was calm and collected, I spoke with confidence, I did not overshare, I was deliberate and measured with my words, and I was assertive, firm, and abundantly clear on my boundaries and thoughts. No JADE. No capitulating. I was self-assured. I felt no nervousness at all, as I had in the past. I was in control and it felt fabulously empowering.

I also did not agree to any access to my child or give any indication that this would happen. My mother wants the privileged grandmother experience without having to be held accountable for my own upbringing and the major dysfunction therein.

I feel as thought I accomplished what I set out to do, which was to show a sign of life, perhaps even for the last time. I even used a burner number. I’m not letting her back in. They live far away and don’t have my address.

At the end of the call, my mother fell into the exact same pattern that caused me to go NC in the first place. She tried to get me to speak to my awful, manipulative, narc excuse of a father. She tried her “let bygones be bygones” routine, sermonizing about “moving forward”. 

This is where I simply said “No”. No is a complete sentence. Still, she tried her pathetic peacekeeping strategy: “Dad says happy belated birthday.” Then, in a calm and firm voice I said “I am not interested in speaking to him. I don’t want anything to do with him and he will never meet my child. I have not called you today to hear your excuses, to hear you defending him as you always have. You know exactly why we haven’t spoken in years, and I am no longer interested in pretending with you.”

It was glorious.

My mother will die the way she is. Sadly, she will go to her grave as a complicit, weak shell of a woman. Interestingly and fortunately, I have realized that I am not as angry as I used to be. Yes, there is anger still there, and I don’t do forgiveness (no lectures please). But I realized that what I feel the most strongly is INDIFFERENCE! They can’t hurt me. They can’t find me. They have zero power over me. I truly feel like my mother is in a cult, one which includes only 2 members, her and unPD excuse-for-a-father. But she’s also willingly chosen to renew her cult membership for the past 50 years.

No regrets for me though, as now I can sleep at night knowing that I did the right thing for me.  Also, I should note that during this whole conversation, I was pretty emotionless. I didn’t cry nor did I even feel the urge to.

Thank you for letting me share my experience here. Maybe it can even help someone. I’d appreciate hearing about similar experiences and how you dealt with them. Did you go back to NC? Did you go vvvlc and grey rock?

[GentleSoul]

Thank you for sharing your experience.   Well handled by you.  Very well done for telling her how you felt.   

I love your description - glorious.

You asked about similar experiences.    I was NC with my PD mum for many years, I then had brief contact with her due to terminal illness diagnosis of another family member. 

I saw her a couple of times.   Once the family member died, I was straight back to No Contact with her.   For several more years, then very brief contact when she was in hospital before she died.

[Mintstripes]

Thank you for sharing your experience.   Well handled by you.  Very well done for telling her how you felt.   

I love your description - glorious.

You asked about similar experiences.    I was NC with my PD mum for many years, I then had brief contact with her due to terminal illness diagnosis of another family member. 

I saw her a couple of times.   Once the family member died, I was straight back to No Contact with her.   For several more years, then very brief contact when she was in hospital before she died.

Thank you, Gentle. Isn't it curious how we can change (become more confident, evolve, thrive in our lives) yet the PD parents stay exactly the same, not having learned a damn thing despite the passing of time?

I can understand you briefly resuming contact due to family illness.

Can I ask how you felt when your mother died? I can imagine it was a mixed bag of emotions.

[GentleSoul]

Thank you, Gentle. Isn't it curious how we can change (become more confident, evolve, thrive in our lives) yet the PD parents stay exactly the same, not having learned a damn thing despite the passing of time?

I can understand you briefly resuming contact due to family illness.

Can I ask how you felt when your mother died? I can imagine it was a mixed bag of emotions.

You are welcome. 

It is indeed curious how they remain exactly the same.  No personal growth.   All her old patterns were in full flow.   She was harassing the family member with the terminal illness diagnosis.  I felt she was jealous of him for all the attention he was receiving.  (I appreciate how crazy that sounds but is pretty much par for the course in this forum  )

I don't mind at all you asking how I felt when she died.  I felt nothing.   She was admitted to hospital, I was phoned and told she didn't have long.  I hadn't seen her for many years at that point.   I made the decision I wanted to do see her.   Not for her sake but for mine. 

My brother and myself went to the hospital.  She was yelling, abusive and nasty.  At us and also at the medical staff.    We stayed for a short while.  Went back the next day and luckily she was in a coma by then so was quiet.  We were able to sit with her until she died.

I had no grief for her or my PD dad when he died.   My brother and myself cleared out her home after she died.  I didn't feel anything then either. We also cleared out PD dads. Nothing then.  I was at peace with who they were I think by then.   I didn't take any keepsakes.

The grief I had was decades before and that was the grief at not having had decent parents. 

I never regretted going No Contact either.  I should have done it years before I did.

[SunnyMeadow]

Glorious is right! You handled it beautifully mintstripes.  You talked to her from a position of strength and I'm sure it felt wonderful.

I went NC very temporarily and now I'm vlc (well more now they are in dire straights) I should have gone full NC years ago too. I'm glad you're feeling no regrets over the interaction. You did what you wanted to do and I applaud you!

[Mintstripes]

Gentle: Thanks for elaborating and sharing the story about how things went near the end. It's a fallacy that many people cling to isn't it? The one that people suddenly become wonderful and admit guilt on their deathbeds. It's simply not always true or possible, especially when dealing with a PD.

You sound like you are at peace with all the decisions you're made surrounding NC while they were alive, and that you've come to terms with who they were throughout life as well as when they passed. Good for you.

Do you also feel that by admitting these things and seeing them for who they're are you've broken a generational curse? I was thinking about that this week. This action on my part was one more blow to the family chain of hurt and dysfunction. I refuse to let that evil plant take root in the life I've made for myself. Not even tiny little roots.

[Mintstripes]

Glorious is right! You handled it beautifully mintstripes.  You talked to her from a position of strength and I'm sure it felt wonderful.

I went NC very temporarily and now I'm vlc (well more now they are in dire straights) I should have gone full NC years ago too. I'm glad you're feeling no regrets over the interaction. You did what you wanted to do and I applaud you!

Thank you, Sunny! How are you managing the vlc? You sound like someone who is good at setting boundaries.

Also, coming from a position of strength is incredible, after being child then young adult under their thumb, to a somewhat nervous and very reactive young woman (can you blame me?!). Now I'm grown, nearing 40, a mother, fully independent (and have been for many, many years now), and I don't fear them at all. It's taken me so long to get here and I'm relieved and proud.

It's incredible but also so predictable to me that my mother did not once say sorry. At all. Literally not at all. You would think that after 5 1/2 years one would take the opportunity to attempt to right wrongs, take responsibility, express regret, admit mistakes, admit their part in the problem. But no. Dysfunction doesn't allow for healthy communication or relationships.

Side note. When we spoke, her voice sounded so much like my grandmother's (who passed when I was young). It was jarring.

[Hilltop]

Thanks for sharing.  You handled that so beautifully.  Coming from a place of indifference would have felt amazing.  I can relate to being the nervous reactive young woman.  This is how I am around my parents.  Too scared to speak up because they would either mock it or I would speak up too reactively, so your update was very refreshing to read.

To reach a place of being able to speak with them with little emotion, knowing they can't hurt you and being able to be assertive and yet calm is such a great place to be.  I am VVVLC at the moment with my parents (text only) and recently they made a comment about driving near where I live and at first I panicked at the thought of seeing them, I am no where near ready for that.  I then realised I could simply say no,  however at the moment I am not able to speak up with them so I simply avoided the topic so the visit won't happen.  I don't want to hide like this, I want to be able to be myself and not care about their opinion on that.  You have been able to reach that place, that's amazing.

I am hoping one day I reach that confident place, which I am working toward, where I can see them and feel strong enough in myself to not care about their opinion and able to be assertive with them.  I am hoping one day I can see them (rarely) and not have it panic me.  At the moment I just feel panic at the thought of seeing them.  So your update was very inspirational.

It's interesting about the refusing to apologise.  They just don't seem to see how that will help or simply don't feel the need to do so.

Where do you think you'll go from here?  Do you think you will remain NC or do you think you will have occasionally contact?

[Mintstripes]

Just to add to this ridiculous story:
The only relatives I still speak to called me today to tell me how happy they were that I’d spoken to my mother. News travels fast  they’re under the impression that all is now resolved and that my mother and I can now resume a relationship, including grandma privileges for her. LOL! AS IF.

Now, these relatives can’t stand my father and are the opposite of flying monkeys when it comes to him. EXCEPT they make the grave mistake of seeing my mother as a separate person. They think she’s some poor victim. This has been the family narrative FOREVER. “Poor MintStripes’s mom! She must be a saint to put up with MintStripe’s dad! Poor, poor her.” She may be a victim, but she’s also responsible for her own stupidity. She is also a dangerous enabler who will NEVER learn.

What my relatives fail to understand is that my parents are a package deal. Everything that is said to my mother WILL be repeated to my father. She has no idea how to be her own person. She can’t help herself (or doesn’t want to). They are insanely co-dependent. As I mentioned, she’s a willing cult member. Everything must be reported to the leader.

Hilltop: to answer your question, I am still processing this ridiculous interaction. My mother is simply not trustworthy and I KNOW she wants access to my child through me. That much was CLEAR. She kept referring to my LO “knowing her grandmother AND grandfather”, having FaceTime calls, getting to know my child, “loving” my child.

I have determined that I do not want a relationship with her. She made it loud and clear that she had learned NOTHING in 5 1/2 YEARS of my absolute silence. It’s almost laughable that she dared try to orchestrate a conversation between my father and me when I had told to stop YEARS ago then finally cut her off.

They are a lost cause who just happen to be the people who brought me into this world. I live a plane ride away, they don’t have my real phone number or address. I’m also realizing now how many times my mother lamented about how she was so concerned about me because she “didn’t have any INFORMATION”. That’s what they’re after. My child and information about me/us. They don’t care about my trauma or all the work I had to do to get past the monsters of my childhood/time with them.

Fuck ‘em.

I am considering if/how to reply next time mother inevitably texts this burner number. If any of you have ideas, I’d be happy to hear them. I’m thinking something along the lines of an emotionless “I am not ready to resume a relationship at this point”. Thoughts?

[Mintstripes]

Also Hilltop, I'm glad you found my story so inspiring! 

Small steps and you will get there. Remember that they can't control you and that their actions/demons are not your responsibility. That's a them problem. Keep setting boundaries and taking all the time you need away from them. Don't care about what others think. Those who judge you will never understand anyway.

[GentleSoul]

Gentle: Thanks for elaborating and sharing the story about how things went near the end. It's a fallacy that many people cling to isn't it? The one that people suddenly become wonderful and admit guilt on their deathbeds. It's simply not always true or possible, especially when dealing with a PD.

You sound like you are at peace with all the decisions you're made surrounding NC while they were alive, and that you've come to terms with who they were throughout life as well as when they passed. Good for you.

Do you also feel that by admitting these things and seeing them for who they're are you've broken a generational curse? I was thinking about that this week. This action on my part was one more blow to the family chain of hurt and dysfunction. I refuse to let that evil plant take root in the life I've made for myself. Not even tiny little roots.

Thank you for this.  I very much think that people hope that towards the end of the life of a person with a PD they will suddenly change into a sweet old lady/man. Become the parent or spouse we always wanted.  They don't.   My experience has been with age they get far worse.

Age and infirmity seems to ramp their behaviours up. 

I am a former nurse and for a time I worked in a nursing home for elderly people.  Lots of the residents had no visitors at all.  I could fully understand why.  They had driven their families away.   

I was at peace with the NC decision.  It was truly heart breaking when I first started it.  My "mother" was incredibly nasty to me.   It was because I started to set boundaries.  She reacted really badly.  Tried to destroy me.   Spiteful beyond all levels you could imagine.  Then a smear campaign against me.   

As I have shared in other threads, she was an extremely rageful and violent woman.   In my childhood she violently attacked myself and my siblings many times, smashed up our things. 

Yet with my NC she played full victim role.  I don't think she cared as such, it was more about what other people thought about her daughter not visiting her. 

Glad you mentioned breaking the generational trauma,  that is exactly how I see it.

Both sides of my family are generations of violent alcoholics and people with personality disorders and mental illness.

My hope is mine has stopped with me.  My brother has stopped it too. 

Sadly my younger sister has not.  It lives on in her but she has no children to pass it on to.

I think it stopping with us is the greatest gift we can give.

[Mintstripes]

I've been processing everything and feeling stronger about my convictions. I've been having moments of doubt and regret about the blip on the radar that was my recent phone call with my mother. Like "I should have known, why did I bother, did I undo the hard work I've done since 2016?"

But this really changes nothing. I have decided that if mother contacts my burner number again, I will say something along the lines of "I hope that knowing I am fine and healthy gave you some comfort. I am not ready to resume a relationship at this time."

What do y'all think?
She's not a safe person for me or my daughter. I cannot in good conscience go ahead with contact again.

Ugh I should have just stayed NC.

[Mintstripes]

Gentle: Thanks for elaborating and sharing the story about how things went near the end. It’s a fallacy that many people cling to isn’t it? The one that people suddenly become wonderful and admit guilt on their deathbeds. It’s simply not always true or possible, especially when dealing with a PD.

You sound like you are at peace with all the decisions you’re made surrounding NC while they were alive, and that you’ve come to terms with who they were throughout life as well as when they passed. Good for you.

Do you also feel that by admitting these things and seeing them for who they’re are you’ve broken a generational curse? I was thinking about that this week. This action on my part was one more blow to the family chain of hurt and dysfunction. I refuse to let that evil plant take root in the life I’ve made for myself. Not even tiny little roots.

Thank you for this.  I very much think that people hope that towards the end of the life of a person with a PD they will suddenly change into a sweet old lady/man. Become the parent or spouse we always wanted.  They don't.   My experience has been with age they get far worse.

Age and infirmity seems to ramp their behaviours up. 

I am a former nurse and for a time I worked in a nursing home for elderly people.  Lots of the residents had no visitors at all.  I could fully understand why.  They had driven their families away.   

I was at peace with the NC decision.  It was truly heart breaking when I first started it.  My "mother" was incredibly nasty to me.   It was because I started to set boundaries.  She reacted really badly.  Tried to destroy me.   Spiteful beyond all levels you could imagine.  Then a smear campaign against me.   

As I have shared in other threads, she was an extremely rageful and violent woman.   In my childhood she violently attacked myself and my siblings many times, smashed up our things. 

Yet with my NC she played full victim role.  I don't think she cared as such, it was more about what other people thought about her daughter not visiting her. 

Glad you mentioned breaking the generational trauma,  that is exactly how I see it.

Both sides of my family are generations of violent alcoholics and people with personality disorders and mental illness.

My hope is mine has stopped with me.  My brother has stopped it too. 

Sadly my younger sister has not.  It lives on in her but she has no children to pass it on to.

I think it stopping with us is the greatest gift we can give.

They always go mad when we set boundaries, don’t they?

I’m always flummoxed at the naïveté of people who make gushing, saccharine statements like “I love old people!” Old people aren’t all the same. Some are good, some are awful. You make a good point about your former patients not having any visitors. There’s often a reason for that, but our society glorifies family and guilts people for setting boundaries with blood relatives.

I have a brother who I think is full-blown NPD and has always been a little minion for my parents. I briefly resumed contact until he betrayed me once again. I went NC 2 1/2 years ago with him for the second time. I KNOW that he and my mother regular Google me to try and track me down. Thankfully I don’t think he will ever have children either.

[GentleSoul]

That absolutely hate and resent boundaries.

I was working full time, married, running a home and yet PD mum expected me to spend a huge chunk of my non-working time listening to her moan.  I suspect she had depression at the time but, of course, she refused to seek any medical help.  Instead she wanted me to listen to her endlessly dump her woes.

I relate to what you say about being flummoxed by the naivete of some people.  I suppose they are just very lucky not to have had any difficult people in their lives to learn from.

Sorry to read about your brother.  Interesting to me that you speak of betrayal.  That is another big element of PD people, in my experience.  They will betray you in an instant if there is anything for them to gain from it.

My feeling on my sister is substance abuse and Borderline PD.  She is terribly emotionally unstable.  Fortunately she moved thousands of miles away!

Groan!! Oh dear oh dear, your mother and brother googling you.  It almost makes me laugh.  I wonder if these people have nothing else to do.   They love social media.  For stalking and intruding. 

All the best to you, Mint Stripes.

[blacksheep7]

Thank you for sharing Mintstripes.
Good to know that you are happy and doing well after all these difficult challenges of life.  Congrats on going back to school.

You were very brave in getting back in contact with your M.  That's what you wanted and went for it with full confidence, the best tool to have.  At least you won't have to feel guilt that you didn't have a chance to speak to her before she dies.

They don't change, do they.  I had reconnected with Covert NM three years later after my first nc, then started my journey of Out of the FOG, researching and reading a lot and being on this forum gave me all the validation to go nc for the last time.   My NM like yours still defended raging NF even after his death.  No empathy for her kids, fake that is.  Only for herself.

Bravo
Best wishes

[Mintstripes]

Thank you for sharing Mintstripes.
Good to know that you are happy and doing well after all these difficult challenges of life.  Congrats on going back to school.

You were very brave in getting back in contact with your M.  That's what you wanted and went for it with full confidence, the best tool to have.  At least you won't have to feel guilt that you didn't have a chance to speak to her before she dies.

They don't change, do they.  I had reconnected with Covert NM three years later after my first nc, then started my journey of Out of the FOG, researching and reading a lot and being on this forum gave me all the validation to go nc for the last time.   My NM like yours still defended raging NF even after his death.  No empathy for her kids, fake that is.  Only for herself.

Bravo
Best wishes

Thank you, Black Sheep! I was feeling some regret this week but now that I have a response ready in case she contacts my burner number, I feel better.

It's amazing how those like our mothers can rabidly defend the wrong people, for our whole lives. They recruit flying monkeys and tell everyone they're the victims. I can only imagine the sob stories my parents have told people over the years. "Poor us, our daughter doesn't talk to us, we don't have any 'information' about her, she's keeping us away from our graaaanddaughter!" They probably say it's elder abuse 

They deeply want us to fall back in line and assume the passive roles they want for us. They made their choices and are shocked when we make ours in kind.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

Mintstripes, I am glad this went so well. Glorious is a great word. Thank you for sharing and for giving a view of how such a transaction can end on a positive note.   

You mention "Isn't it curious how we can change (become more confident, evolve, thrive in our lives) yet the PD parents stay exactly the same, not having learned a damn thing despite the passing of time?"  I reflect on the same each time I have any contact with my parents. They so quickly resort back to the same decades old phrases, guilting, and projections as though it is hard-coded programming. Amazing if you realize you used to play along, take it on, live under the heaviness and accept it as normal. The healing and growth I believe is extraordinary.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

They deeply want us to fall back in line and assume the passive roles they want for us. They made their choices and are shocked when we make ours in kind.

Oh, yes, and this too. 

[Mintstripes]

Mintstripes, I am glad this went so well. Glorious is a great word. Thank you for sharing and for giving a view of how such a transaction can end on a positive note.   

You mention "Isn't it curious how we can change (become more confident, evolve, thrive in our lives) yet the PD parents stay exactly the same, not having learned a damn thing despite the passing of time?"  I reflect on the same each time I have any contact with my parents. They so quickly resort back to the same decades old phrases, guilting, and projections as though it is hard-coded programming. Amazing if you realize you used to play along, take it on, live under the heaviness and accept it as normal. The healing and growth I believe is extraordinary.

Blueberry: Yes! Their immediate return to old tactics and speech floors me. No personal growth or self-awareness whatsoever.

[Boat Babe]

Personal growth. Yes.  I tried to explain this to my mum once as part of a general conversation. She looked at me as if I was explaining quantum physics.