Is it me?

[escapingman]

user, I completely agree. I am not thinking of her as much anymore, more about myself. I have read the book you refer to (or listened to it) and it is a very good book, that was the first one I listened to just before I took the decision to divorce. But, it is very difficult being in the same house seeing her, hearing her all the time. I need out, I need go low contact with her. When I have been away for a few days I don't think about her at all, only about the enjoyment of being out either on my own or with a friend. But my real problem, that I still can't manage, is when one of the kids (mostly GC) starts swearing at me and shouts at me and I have no way of making her see what she is doing is wrong, as she is being backed directly or indirectly by STBX.

[SonofThunder]

....Then I reread my posts and my journal and I remember - my resolve hardens and I am better able to process those shadows that creep back in.

...Doc everything and keep in contact with your lawyer

  EM, wishing you the best with your therapist conversation 👍

SoT

[SonofThunder]

EM,

I've been reading a different book (one of SoT's recommendations): Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.

One of the fundamental points is this: to stop caretaking, you have to stop focusing on the PD person. You need to shift your focus from the PD person and on yourself. What do you want for your life? What are your needs? How do you want to be treated?

I think you are already moving this direction because you are in the midst of a divorce, but I would encourage you to just keep reminding yourself that what she says/does/how she behaves doesn't ultimately matter. What diagnosis she has doesn't matter. Spending precious brain cells trying to figure out what she has, or how to "manage her", etc, etc. This is all pointless, wasted mental effort.

I think the more we try and diagnose/understand/manage our responses to PD, the more we remain trapped in the abuse cycle / the drama triangle. Another way to put it: a narcissist wants the world to revolve around them. Keeping you thinking about them all the time is still enabling them for it to be all about him. Victory is not thinking about her.

The way out is to just live your life as you want. If that life involves the other person, they have to adjust to how you want to be, not the other way around.

When you think about what you think about in a typical day, how much of it is focused on your wife? I would venture to guess you are consumed with thinking about her, how she is feeling, what she is going to do, how she is going to respond, etc, etc. I say this because this is often my focus. STOP THIS. (I'm saying this to myself too, haha). When you spend the majority of your waking moments thinking about the PD person, they are still gaining victory in keeping you in the abuse cycle. In my book, success for you is being able to go a day not thinking about her, and even if she is being terrible, it all just sort of rolls off of you and you ignore it. I'm not saying this is easy...it's incredibly difficult...but I think this is the goal to get to a healthier place.

  Well stated user.  Fully agree.

You wrote: "The way out is to just live your life as you want. If that life involves the other person, they have to adjust to how you want to be, not the other way around."

This gets easier over time.  The PD gets conditioned to the non's 'indifference' once the non gets off the IDD cycle.  Then, its full-on 'inconsiderate, discarding roommate' by the PD spouse.  At least that is my experience

SoT 

[square]

I read the Eggshells one. I don't regret reading it and it is great for some situations but I think you've already applied what you can from it, EM.

In fact, I had a reaction of visceral anger when I read it. Again, not saying the book is bad - it's great for milder cases, and not for N traits. And it did help me get ideas for what eventually became MC.

I like your plan for giving T one more chance, then no need to belabor if it doesn't work. Maybe she usually finds people appreciate being heard first before moving on , idk. We'll see.

You know what sets my H off when he thinks he has me cornered - like with the fiasco picking up the kids? Smirking at him while looking into his eyes then saying "I see what you did there" or "nice one." And saying nothing else. Only did it a couple of times but hoo boy, he did not like that. I'm a jerk and I will bite. It didn't calm anything down but kept the power dynamic from going too insane.

[moglow]

...I still can't manage, is when one of the kids (mostly GC) starts swearing at me and shouts at me and I have no way of making her see what she is doing is wrong, as she is being backed directly or indirectly by STBX.

As most would be! It's never acceptable for a child to swear and shout at others, especially parents, teachers etc. I guarantee if either child were swearing and/or shouting at the STBX, it would most assuredly and understandably be reprimanded. This is triangulation and parental alienation taking place. If the child is being told/taught/tolerated with this at home, you can bet it's taking place elsewhere. Just keep reminding yourself, in your home, on your time, no one is allowed this kind of behavior, even if there's nothing you can do about it right now.

[Poison Ivy]

IMO, it would be appropriate for Escapingman, or anyone else in a similar situation, to say directly to their child, "It is not okay for you to scream and swear at me" and then, if the behavior continues, put up the boundary of leaving the room.

[escapingman]

IMO, it would be appropriate for Escapingman, or anyone else in a similar situation, to say directly to their child, "It is not okay for you to scream and swear at me" and then, if the behavior continues, put up the boundary of leaving the room.

That's exactly what I did, then when STBX  had left the room I went back and asked for and got an apology.

[Poison Ivy]

Good move, escapingman!

[JustKeepTrying]

You are in an intolerable situation.  That horrible period before the divorce can move forward.  Tensions are high all around.  And I am actually seeing that you are handling it pretty well.

Let's face it - it we could stop giving our spouses mental space or let them be - or whatever - then we wouldn't be in the situation we are in.  So while the end is the same, I offer you a spin on it.  Look at this as your end.  This is the end.  The final death throes.  There is relief in that perspective.  Yes, you need to keep your boundaries strong and use all the tools - the end is in sight and it's almost over.  Yes, you don't want to give your stbx anymore head space but it's hard when you are under constant bombardment.  So as often as you can, take a break, take a walk, a longer shower with the door locked, whatever you can to maintain your peace and keep the end in sight.

As for the kids, it's not at all wrong to clearly and unemotionally state in front of the stbx "Yelling, screaming, curse words - even from adults - is not acceptable behavior.  I am going to ask you to go to your room and we will discuss this when you have calmed down so we can come to a reasonable conclusion."  It might mork.

[square]

I know how chaotic that situation can be. You're doing it right, EM. You can't enforce anything in the moment, only clearly state it's inappropriate and remove yourself. You can enforce later, as you did. Good work.

Just so toxic to the extreme, smh.

[escapingman]

So last night GC completely lost it and started to swear an scream at everyone, I had to step in as I cannot let her get away with such behaviour. Ended up sending her to bed and took her electronics, worst thing that can ever happen to her. At least STBX backed me on it so it went OK, but not without a massive fight from GC. This morning she asked if she could get her items back, I said she could, if she apologised and then behaved - it took her less than 5 minutes to throw another tantrum swearing and screaming first at SG and then at me. I told her if she doesn't stop I will take her electronics again, whereby she complained to STBX and surprise surprise STBX undermined me and said validated GC in her belief that I was unreasonable. So I left them to it, ending up in a massive fight between GC and STBX. In the end SG came to me and asked if I could take her to school as she could not bare listening to them anymore. So took SG to school and again got sworn at for taking her to school when that was supposed to be done by STBX, who was still fighting with GC. Then when back home, STBX start moaning to me that all problems are caused by me not backing her and having a united front against the kids. I wonder how bug that black hole in her head is, she really doesn't seem to get ANYTHING. Now I have been branded nasty and mean again, but she is speaking to me trying to pretend all is OK again.

I am so worried the kids will get like her, every single one on STBX side of the family have issues and I would guess they all are NPD based on their behaviour. As soon as I get out I need to get the girls someone to talk to. I am exhausted and can just about keep my head above water.

[Starboard Song]

There are no words.

You are simply caught in a hard situation and making your best.

Hold on tight! And please make sure you have a trusted friend IRL that you open up with and can share completely with. We are here, but you need and deserve that IRL friend, too.

Starboard

[JustKeepTrying]

your cool user and right.  you can't let them in that headspace.  it is so easy to do and so detrimental

[escapingman]

user, I don't get offended so you can write or say whatever. You are right in that you can't let them into your headspace, I am trying my best but it's tricky when she is in the house. As someone suggested, I should have a lock on the door. Problem is that none of the doors have lock on them and if I started screwing a lock onto the door she would get a complete fit as her precious door wouldn't be brand new anymore (it's 10 years old). Again, I sat in a meeting, she opened the door and just stood there staring at me for attention and didn't leave until I ignored her and started talking to the others in the meeting again. Just a note that if she is busy with something no one is allowed to breathe in the house.

I have organised to go away for a few days again, she complains but I don't care. I think it will be calmer for the kids as well as STBX won't try all tricks with me. I just need some space and energy again before next weeks battles start, time to push for separation now. That will be hard as that will be a physical separation, at the moment I am still visible for her which means I exists in her world. When I move out it will hit her hard and I am worried about the actual moment I get my stuff out the house. I have no idea how she will react.   

[square]

I'm the one who mentions the lock. You do what ya gotta do but the way I see it, it'll go either of two ways:

1) How much worse can it be than what you're getting on the daily anyway? And then you have a lock and put headphones on and protect your space.

2) Or. She actually does lose her entire mind. Screeching and clawing at the locked door for an hour. Might be the recording to cinch it. Just make sure you're a saint on that recording. You could even calmly say that this is why you have the lock, because this is how she behaves, and you can't even work.

[hhaw]

EM, you're worrying about how the stbx will handle your final move out of the house vs looking down the road, planning that day, asking a friend or 2 to "help you move" but really making sure you have witnesses, support and help documenting the facts and perhaps mitigating the PD's outbursts in front of the children bc PDs seem to "find" more control when unbiased witnesses are present, ime. 

It might be appropriate to have the polic escort you in and out if the house, depending on stbx's behavior.  Ask your attorney about it.  Who knows what the domestic violence advocates are saying?  Have you spoken to them recently?

Asking for help might not feel good or right or even possible now, but..... it's good to trust one or 2 very rational people to help you plan and stay on track, IME.  People who get you and your situation.

Anyone who doesn't understand your situation won't be someone you talk to about this, IME.  Anyone who asks dumb questions or simply lacks the context to make sense of this is someone you know can't be there for you, IME.  PD behaviors are nonsensical and will never make sense.  Some people like drama and feeling favored by the PD it are envious of you, sometimes bc they thought you had everything, and you appeared to have everything so they feel fooled or tricked, bc they had problems out in the open.  Being very private.....minimizing abuse.....having a high tolerance for abuse will work against you if you can't look down the road, stop protecting the PD and your privacy and allow support and help. 

Truthfully, learning to ask for help me get be important work for you.

Once you make a solid plan you can rest your mind and trust you're doing all you can do.......turn toward whatever joy you can find in the present.

Or worry worry worry without proactivity and planning things out.  Letting the PD call the shots appears to me as learned helplessness, but I don't have the best viewpoint on your situation, to be fair.

So....
choices.

[escapingman]

user, there are many reasons why I can't work away from home at the moment. First and biggest one is that I am planning my exit, to arrange for working away from home would take focus from that. I rather get away on shorter trips and stay and work from a hotel, it's not ideal but that gives me longer breaks from her other than just the work day. Another reason is that I have a bad back and I need a proper workstation, I can do the odd days/hours from a hotel but no chance from a coffee shop or similar. My current focus is to get out, and I mean out.

hhaw, I am not that worried in a way I need protection - I am more worried she will trigger immense guilt in me when I eventually leave. I would have my dad over to help me move, but with covid still lurking I am not sure I want to ask him to travel as he has underlaying health conditions that could be a problem if he caught it. But rest assure I am planning my exit, I just need the confirmation between mine and STBX's solicitor that we have an agreement about the girls before the actual divorce settlement. I am not moving out to find out that STBX can refuse me to see the girls for months.

SG is going away for a holiday with a friend, she is so excited, and so am I. She has got this new friend in school and her family invited her. I will miss her, but the opportunity to spend time with a normal family without STBX for a week. WOW. But today, STBX was on her own with SG, and according to SG, she told SG that I will not miss her when she is away. SG told me this and asked me to not tell her mum. What a twisted f*ck she is, how can anyone do that to their kid? It's just making me even more determined to get out, and my fighting spirit to maybe go for full custody is raising.

[escapingman]

Rest and distance. Bliss. Left for a few days. Last night sat in a roof top bar having a drink, enjoying the peace. Woke up this morning, just sat and calmly looked out the window at the hotel. Sat thinking of what to do today, no plans and noone that complains.  Went in to Central London and people watch and now relaxing with a coffee. I feel so energised being away from her. I love sitting just doing nothing, STBX always need to do something which always keep me on edge. I haven't given her one thought today, it feels great.

Got a few messages from SG and apparently STBX told her that I don't love her. Then kicked off with her and started giving her the silent treatment. I so need to get the strength to finalise this.

[hhaw]

You might text back to SG..... something like....
" I'm sorry your mum is making sad choices right now, SG.  Of course I love you and will always be here for you, no matter what.  I promise. 
About your mum's sad choices to talk about me and adult problems.....they aren't yours to worry about.  Your job is to focus on school, your chores and discovering what you love to do.  Your mum and I will be fine, just as you and GC will be fine.  I promise things will calm down.....they will also be different, but we'll all be ok."

I'm glad you're getting some peace, EM.

[escapingman]

Thanks hhaw, she knows. She tell me all crazy making all the time and understands something is not right. She is pushing back alot on her uNPDmum and therefor suffer alot of silent treatment and stone walling. I hope I can get her (and her sister) out of that toxic environment soon. But as they say on the planes, I need to put my oxygen mask on first.