Friend critical of me/only seeing the bad in me

[chewchewmonkey]

Hi there!! I'm pretty new here, and for the past four-five weeks i've been in a big brain mess because of a friend of 10 years. I'll try and be concise and I realise that this is my biased account of what transpired but I've felt really alone with this and my therapist recommended this place to feel a bit less alone with what I'm going through.

For context, I met this friend when I was 18/19 - she's about 5-6 years older than me, so there's always been a bit of a dynamic of me being the young, naive and silly one and her being the voice of reason. I have a history of abusive relationships in my family, my romantic relationships and friendships, and I've been getting counselling support for about two years now and learned to work on my self-hatred and self-worth issues. This also meant that I've not been so afraid of having negative feelings or haven't felt as pressured to always act happy and focus on other people's comfort over mine.

Anyway, my friend told me 4 weeks ago to complete that Myers Briggs test - she had to have it done at work and she liked her results, felt like it was a very accurate description of her. I get my result and share it with her, and she asks me how accurate I feel it is - i say that I'm not sure how introverted or extroverted I am, but I can see these things apply to me. She then goes on to tell me how that's so interesting, because she sees none of the strengths that are listed on this personality type in me, in fact, she only sees the weaknesses, and those only - she went on to say how when she thinks of me, she doesn't think of a person with joy, optimism, or open-mindedness at all, and how I used to be so much more fun when we met, and that this might be a good reminder to think of how i present myself outward.

This felt awful to hear - I tried to take some space and take it in as constructive criticism, but I told her that this really felt bad to hear, especially since I've been very frequently talking about my efforts and how therapy has helped me live my life and how i've been feeling really good in the past year. We just went to see a show in town and we had a good laugh and really good fun, and I couldn't understand how someone could spend time with me and seem to enjoy themselves only to tell me I have no joy or optimism whatsoever.

I told her this really didn't feel nice and that i'm trying to reflect on it, but having come out of an abusive relationship just 7 months ago (one that she supported me through) where i've been constantly told that i'm needy, and a know-it-all and i'm ungrateful, a superficial SJW and a nuisance, hearing criticism like this doesn't really sit well with me, to which she replied "well, don't you think they might have had a point, though?"

Anyway, she then started talking to me about this one time I jokingly said an actor could afford not to get a role in a big movie, because I knew he was rich - I said it as a joke, and that I did not mean anything else with it, and we've talked about it at the time too, but because she likes that actor very much, I think she really took it to heart and she wouldn't stop insisting that I believe all rich people and people who didn't grow up in poverty should hate themselves, and that this must be my opinion because I grew up poor; I kept in return insisting this wasn't true, and that I can objectively believe there are massive income differences while having grown up poor, but I let myself carry on in the discussion beyond the point that felt good, which ended up with us talking about my financial anxiety and her telling me to just "get over" the fear of losing everything and becoming homeless, and that these fears are wrong and I should just push it down. I told her that's not how it works, felt so oddly exposed and criticised (this whole conversation stretched through an entire day) and I just felt so off about the whole interaction afterwards.

The next day, she messages me to see how i'm doing - I tell her i'm really not doing good but that I don't have it in me to talk about it right now. She told me that "although I didn't ask", she felt bad too and that she had no idea i "had it this bad" and that she shouldn't have touched on these subjects, and that i'll have to just take care of it with a professional if i decide to do so. i'm translating because this convo wasn't in english, but i felt so weird getting a message that implied that i was doing so unwell, when all i've been on about in the past 6 months is how good i've been feeling, despite all my ongoing issues, even if this might not have been the intended meaning behind it.

she also went alllllll the way back to our discussions (an entire day's discussions, like i said), and went ahead and deleted every single message of hers up until this point, so only my responses were now visible.

I told her I appreciate her reaching out and i'm sorry this affected her badly too but that i still need time. she then randomly messaged me a few days later asking me to give her a "vital sign". i was out on a double driving lesson and didn't respond for the 5 hours i was driving, and i got another text with the same message in about 5 hours too. i told her i'm okay and that i still haven't had time to think about things. it again just felt like she thinks i can't take care of myself, and felt like it was a reflection of who she sees in me, but at this point, i really felt stressed out and confused and wanted to just get this whole thing over with, so i started typing up a message the next day to send to her.

and looking back i wish i hadn't rushed this so much, because i full on JADEd the whole thing - i tried to explain that because we have different political views (i'm sure this is a trend - i'm progressive and v active, and she's a bit more centrist, not politically involved) and different outlooks on things, sometimes i feel like my opinions cannot exist parallel to what she thinks, and that i feel like there's a power dynamic that i don't enjoy and how this might contribute to the fact that our conversations end up with her insisting that i'm too emotional about things or i care too much about things, or we end up talking about how a topic personally affects me and as soon as she finds out that i may or may not have a reason to be biased (e.g. i grew up poor, etc etc), the point of the argument is that i need to "sort myself out", instead of just accepting that i can have my own opinion and she can have hers and mine can be just as fine to have as hers, she doesn't have to poke a hole in whatever i'm saying (especially when it's the same argument over and over, until it's just frustrating). i made the grave mistake of generalising and saying that i believed her worldview was more like things are good the way they are (and then regretted that a lot, and have been profusely apologising and reconsidering this, oof).

there was genuine concern from her when i would run myself dry over certain events, but i have talked to her about this a lot too in the past, about how while i cannot completely shut out the sadness and anxiety that might come from being aware of the news, i no longer let myself be consumed by it to the point where i cannot function, because i've learnt a bunch of different ways to deal with it, but i do let myself feel these things now without shame.

anyway, so i JADED, offended her by saying i think she doesn't want change (that's a 100% on me), tried to clumsily assert some boundaries (i.e. i won't discuss politics/gender/morals as i don't think the discussions are fair, and that i would like to have the opportunity to be seen with a little more grace - i accepted the criticism that i'm not a good sharer, but that i think i also need to feel like i'm not just seen as my weaknesses to feel comfortable sharing things).

We started going back and forth about things, and things started getting really confusing - there would be these really small remarks that completely confused me ("it didn't seem like you've been happy", "i'm sorry you missed to notice how aware i am of your progress", and she felt like i was twisting her words. she told me that when she referred to my situation as "having it this bad" she didn't mean anything bad, she just had no idea how tough i had it, and basically said that "if you feel so confident about who you are and you are so proud and confident then go forth with it and all the best to you", and explained to me that she was going after me earlier because she felt shame when we talked about certain topics; she felt like i'm saying she should be ashamed to be a white straight cis woman because she didn't have it as bad and that she went on to delete all the messages, because she couldnt undo it but at least there isnt anything left of it anymore.

i explained that i think i know that shame that she feels, because i've felt it too before, and that there are certain truths about income inequality for example, but that my point from the entire discussion before was that i don't want anyone to feel ashamed, it is just important to point out differences that make huge differences in individuals' lives, but that having normal living conditions isn't a thing to be ashamed of, and offered to explain how uncomfortable i've felt as well until i read up about things a bit and realised that we're not all individually guilty for systematic issues, and benefiting from these things or not understanding them don't make us bad people. thinking though that we're immediately bad if we're not woke enough will make you feel that sort of shame, and it sucks. i also reflected on some of the other points, apologised for the comments i made on her worldview, and wanted to reiterate that i'm only trying to talk through this because i care about this friendship and i've been having a really good time with her, and i've enjoyed sharing parts of our lives, but that this all made me realise that i'm somehow perceived really negatively and i would like this to change, if at all possible, but that i understand that we might have different ideas on what's possible.

and this is where it gets a bit more tense, because she starts telling me that from what she can tell, it doesn't look like i've enjoyed this friendship, that i've been twisting her words and turning them against her, that she never wanted to hurt me, thought really highly of me and i've been really important to her, and she wanted me to see myself the way she sees me, someone who's gone through a lot, and she's sorry for not using the right way to express these. she apologised some more, she said she doesn't know what else to do, and then to the end of the message she put "i hope you're relived now, that you could let all this out of yourself, it looks like this has been building up in you for a long time".

and it's just been, the weirdest confusing thing. she tells me i didn't value this friendship, i'm twisting words and then offers an apology, only to then again tell me that i must have had these feelings bottled up inside me for ages, so i told her that i appreciate her apology and that she wrote this down, how i know that she means well and that i value and love her, but that my goal isn't really an apology, i would like these remarks about me to stop, especially the ones that keep assuming these negative/mean feelings i harbour against her, and that i cannot accept her apology until she keeps wrapping them in these comments.

after this, things went south pretty quickly - she lost patience with me and the tone changed as well. she said she was patient, she thought about it, took what i said seriously and was hoping that i'd see things differently over time, but that she's had enough, that i've been pestering her for a whole day, and that i have the nerve to say that i value and enjoy our friendship when i keep complaining how nothing she ever says or does is good, and how i cannot even accept an apology without criticising it, and that if she's such a shitty person and she's hurt me so much that i can only spit her way at this point, i should probably go to L [this other friend i've been mentioning to her] or whoever and entertain them if anyone cares about this kind of stuff. how she said sorry, thats all she could do, and that she's sorry it hasn't been up to my standards, but that's not her problem - "take it or leave it".

she also added how she still feels like i've kept hatred in me for a really long time, because she cannot believe that it's only our discussions from earlier that triggered this anger, that she's entitled to her feelings, and she understands what i've said, she's not [r-word], i can decide if i want this, if i still want anything from her and that that's it for her.

i responded to her one more time (i know, i really shouldnt have, we were both agitated, ugh). i told her she has the right to her feelings, that i'm really sorry i hurt her with this whole thing, and that i've generalised about how she sees the world, and how wrong that was of me, i insisted that my opinion on this friendship and her remain the same, despite what she says she thinks i feel, and that i'm spending my free time discussing this with her not because i want to pester her, but because i want to discuss these things for our own benefit, but that i won't accept this tone from anyone, even if i know it's frustrating that we aren't on the same wavelength on this, and reiterated that i don't owe anyone forgiveness when the behaviour (i.e. assuming my feelings and assuming i harbour hate and anger, when i've already told her i didn't - in fact, i just felt confused, fear and doubt non-stop) continues on, and that all i want is for my perspective to be recognised as just as real and valid as hers without assuming how angry and aggressive i am in the same sentence as the apology.

her last message to me, before i shut down the conversation was "you didnt like the tone? well that wasnt my aim anyway, what did you expect, that i'd keep taking all this thrown at me?" she told me how hypocritical it is that i keep preaching on about how she misinterprets things but i keep twisting her words. she told me i'm more than welcome not to accept her apology, and based on my behaviour and expectations in the past days we've been talking about this, it looks like i dont actually need friends, i just need "nodding monkeys", ones that always agree with me and never comments anything, and that she's not willing to be that person. she called me a hypocrite, how i keep complaining how i need to explain things but still write essays (yep, my bad), that i'm blaming her for everything, and that all i do is keep citing my rights and listing her flaws. kept telling me i misinterpret her words, that i've been trying to tell her for days what to say, what to feel and what to think (and here she also added that preferably nothing that isnt my opinion), and how to behave, and that it's my fault that we're not getting to an agreement, because i keep criticising her apologies, and i go on to say i value her, and that if i actually did value her, i would not behave like this. she told me to stop schooling her and wasting my free time on it, and that it's hard to believe anything that i say about our friendship, and that she cannot change this - that i shouldn't "blame the mirror for what i see in it", and that i should speak to her when i got off my high horse.

i... was completely disregulated after this whole discussion. even recalling what happened right now, four weeks from now leaves me so confused, thinking i may have in fact tried to tell her how to feel, i may have just thrown away our friendship because i can't get off my high horse. i'm really aware of how clumsy this whole thing was, and how i shouldn't have written an essay's worth of context to how i felt, because it doesn't help us understand each other - i now know that, but i'm really new with boundaries and conflicts like these.

i told her i needed time and i don't want to talk more about this for a while. the following was the best two weeks of my life, not having to think about this, getting to spend time with friends that really make me feel like the person i really am instead of what i felt like during this whole ordeal, this negative, out-of-line hypocrite. i was so confused about seeming angry, when i really wasn't, i was really worried i was wrong instead of just focusing on the fact that i felt hurt by my supposedly close friend, because i was made aware of how lowly she thinks of me. i still cannot fully understand how someone can tell me she wants me to see myself as this strong person whos fought through so much but can tell me all these hurtful things half an hour later when we disagree on something.

we're picking up the discussion again tomorrow evening - i started panicking again, and having looked at the messages again i feel so worried that i'll start spiralling as soon as we start talking again. i'm trying to keep it brief this time, not trying to explain how i saw things, and focus more on what i feel right now (i'm still hurt, and i don't feel safe/comfortable), and what i need (space, space, lots of space), and whether or not we can agree on a way forward.

i want to feel open to whatever she has to say, but  as bad as it sounds, part of me's already prepared for the worst scenario. even if she realises how tough this has been for me beyond the hurt that i've caused to her, i'm not sure i can and want to trust someone who told me things like i have no strengths or positive things about me that she sees even in that case. my gut feeling is to just gray rock out of this or stop this altogether.

i still feel really bad, because i realise now that the way i went around this wasn't very good either - i'm trying to keep myself reassured with the thought that even if i have made a really bad assumption, and i might never make it up to her, i didn't say anything that i regret, i never went against her character, and that was never my intention. i hope i learn from this? i guess?

i realise this was incredibly long, and i've had many runs at trying to write this down, given that it's very complicated. she did tell me she was reading up on mental illnesses and she thought she might have bpd, but never got diagnosed.

[Hilltop]

I have found that friends that are critical or put me down are not really friends at all.  You have been friends for 10 years and have just come out of an abusive relationship.  Perhaps you built up this friendship at a time in your life when toxic people were around you and this sort of behaviour was more common, it happens a lot.  Perhaps only now you are seeing the toxic behaviour.

I would continue work with your therapist and talk about things with your therapist.  I would not talk anymore with this friend about your issues or worries etc.  You say you felt panicked at the thought of a further discussion.  Listen to your body, it doesn't lie.  If you are feeling panicked or worried about talking or seeing someone then something is very off.

I am not suggesting you need to give up the friendship however I wonder if giving yourself some breathing space at them moment would help you.  You are trying to build up your self esteem and your friend is trying to drag it down.  Out of all those positives the test said she couldn't see one in you - really.  If that's so then could she have said other positives she saw in you?  She knows you are going through a hard time and yet she is being negative and saying you have no joy.  A friend would be supportive and try to lift you up, not tear you down.  Later she says that you are listing all her flaws, isn't that what she did which led to this whole discussion in the first place.  Her telling you that you must have held in all this anger and must be so relieved to now get it out - uh is she a mind reader.  As you say you haven't felt that.  I do wonder if she is projecting, that she has been angry and has now let some of it out and is pushing that onto you. She could handle listing all your negative qualities to you but when you talk to her about her qualities that are hurtful, she gets angry and her tone changes.  So she can dish it out but she can't take it.

Could you possibly just tell her that you don't feel like talking things through and just want to think things through yourself at the moment.  If you do see her don't talk about your issues or problems and just keep the conversation on other neutral topics.  Work through any of your issues or problems with your therapist. 

I do think it's great that you called her out for her criticisms and told her that you found that hurtful to hear.  The fact that she didn't hear or listen to you and simply used it as an excuse to criticise you further says a lot.  I feel like that's an unhealthy dynamic.  She seems to want to convince you that you are really unwell rather than asking you how you feel or how you think you are doing.  Coming out of an abusive relationship is not easy and there are going to be emotions around that, that's not a bad thing, you are not unwell for feeling that.  It's healthy to have a therapist and be working through those issues.

I would personally give this friendship some space and give yourself some breathing room.  Continue working with your therapist.  If you choose to see your friend I would keep it light, not talk about any issues.  As you go through therapy perhaps you will come to see the friendship as toxic or perhaps it's just a stage the friendship is going through.  The thing is though, if we spend time around people who put us down, it does affect our self esteem.  It does bring us down and make us feel worse about ourselves.  To me it's not worth going through life surrounded by these types.

You do not need to talk about this at all if you don't want to.  I would just tell her that you don't want to discuss it at the moment.  As you say you felt so differently when away from her for the two weeks.  Perhaps just continue to give the friendship some breathing space so you can heal from the past relationship and work on yourself in a positive manner.

[moglow]

Yeah, what Hilltop said! One other thing that comes to mind - having these kinds of conversations via text or email aren't really fair to either of you. It's too emotional and easily misunderstood and you can't see/her inflections that could change the whole tone. You don't *have* to address the criticisms at all - sometimes best thing we can do is take what we need and leave the rest. She's entitled to whatever opinion she has, as are you. It doesn't change who you are!

[BeautifulCrazy]

It's okay to ask yourself at any time how genuine your friendships are. Are they healthy? Are they mutual and reciprocal? Do you generally feel good when you think about your friend? Do you generally feel good when you spend time with them? Do you still feel good afterward? If there are negative aspects, are they constantly there, or just once in a while?

This is purely my personal opinion/ feeling after reading your post: I might be missing a lot, but the interactions you describe don't sound like something I myself would be willing to call friendship. (I am very introverted and choosy about who I let in, or who I keep in my inner circle.) If I felt undermined, criticized, or like I had to JADE my speech or actions, more than once in a rare while, I would definitely be reconsidering my level of involvement with my "friend".

[chewchewmonkey]

hey all, thanks so much for the responses, i really appreciate them and all the advice. we did have discussions from wednesday onwards, and i've asked for another 2-3 weeks of a break to think things through, as by the end of it even though we went through some things, and in a much less agitated way, i still just felt confused and unhappy, honestly.

i don't want to write down the whole thing, but the things that really stuck with me that still leave me puzzled are how she kept saying that she was only trying to help me and she was saying these criticisms out of care and concern. and how i keep falling apart at the news and over things that don't even directly affect me and so because of things like these, she just thinks that compared to my 18-yo self, things like "joy to be around" arent the things that she associates with me.

when i raised it as a concern that she talked to me in a really disrespectful way and said really awful things to me, she just said how that's just the way she is, if someone hurts her, she will not be polite. further down the conversation she kept saying how what i initially wrote was a constant criticism of her and how awful i see her. i'm still so confused. i asked her to specify where i did that and what i did so i could be aware of it, because even if i made one remark that was incorrect, none of what i said in the discussion was against her character. i pointed out behaviour i didnt like and that felt hurtful??? and she was the one to tell me i'm a hypocritical angry hateful person who needs nodding dogs for friends because that's all i can handle, and that i'm sitting on a high horse?? excuse me? she even told me after i tried to set a boundary that i will no longer talk to her when she talks to me that way, that she understands if i want to stop talking when things "don't go my way". ???

she didnt reply to that and just kept saying how she couldnt believe i could write those things.

so it was just a weird mix of things - we both tried to be as amicable as possible to avoid things escalating, but i feel like i had to give in on a lot of things, that i again realise now that i've had some clarity that i maybe shouldn't have. i apologised for writing a long essay instead of trying to discuss things real time, but i feel like having done that that just allowed her to shift the blame on how i caused her anger and that in the end, it was justified, because i was unapproachable and mean and i criticised her, when she criticised me for an entire day, and kept insisting i believe and think and said things i never did, and then snapped at me. and then she basically told me all those mean things for not accepting an apology because she wouldnt accept that my problem was with the behaviour and that not changing.

i asked specifically for the talks to be in writing - after the way it ended last time, i just felt terrified this could happen again, and i needed to feel like i have an option to step away. i was really worried and so stressed over it - and the more we talked, the more i felt myself completely fall apart again. i feel really bad, and i keep thinking i'm trying to make myself the victim here. i had to reach out to a helpline before my therapy session because i felt so lost and had no idea where i began and where the criticisms of me began.

i'm working through it with my therapist, and it's been really helping - like BeautifulCrazy suggested i've been trying to reevalutate this friendship overall, too. my problem has been that since i'm recovering from other narcissistic abusers in my past, i had a lot of really not good feelings about many of my friendships in the past due to the lack of boundaries and the resentment that came with it, so my assumption has been that maybe the negative feelings i had about this particular friend were all my fault. i've actually felt relatively ok in this in the past few months, even if she had been very critical of me previously too - but i think i'm now starting to realise that maybe this isn't the best dynamic for me, constantly being criticised. the only reason i know now that these situations and behaviours dont sit well with me is because i've been very lucky to have made friendships that feel incredibly rewarding and safe. and when i think about this one friedship, a lot of times when i try to make a decision or a change for myself that's completely unrelated to her, i worry so much about what she's going to say and how she's going to criticise it, and i don't think that's good for me.

so anyway - i have 3 weeks to think things through, and gain back some of the clarity i lost during the discussions. hopefully that and therapy will help, but ultimately at this moment in time i think i do want to end it. even 2 days into not talking i feel so much better, and i don't feel so self-critical. i realise i'm absolutely not innocent in how this dynamic between us came to be, but i guess all i can do at this point is decide if it's a dynamic that brings value to me?? so i guess this is where i'm at currently!

[Hilltop]

Hey Chewchewmonkey, it sounds very stressful.  I keep thinking that if your friend was concerned about you, why does that include criticism?

If she was concerned couldn't she just of said "Hey you seem to be falling apart a lot lately and be really upset by what's in the news, are you OK?  I'm concerned about you".  It's ok to bring stuff up but why does that need to turn into "you aren't a joy to be around anymore". 

She says that you caused her anger?  Hmmm, she is responsible for her own emotions, her emotions are not your responsibility.  They are entirely hers.

I don't think any conversation with a friend is healthy if it leads you to need to call a helpline and you are so confused about yourself.   That is simply not healthy.  I don't think it's healthy to feel fear about being criticised by her regarding issues that don't even relate to her.  That to me isn't friendship.

Are there other friends around you who are supportive and caring?  Do you have others you can turn to and spend time with?  Do you actually want this conversation in 3 weeks time?  You don't have to continue if you don't want to, you can take some time and give yourself space to work it out and come back later when you are sure and ready within yourself.  Even having a time line to come back and talk seems more like a game to your friend than genuine.  Wouldn't it make more sense to give yourself space and reach out when you are ready, not on some timeline she has forced?

What do you want to do?  What will help you at the moment?  Where do you want to take things?  Do you need more time?  Take a moment to breathe and think about you for second.  Take care.

[chewchewmonkey]

Hey Chewchewmonkey, it sounds very stressful.  I keep thinking that if your friend was concerned about you, why does that include criticism?

If she was concerned couldn't she just of said "Hey you seem to be falling apart a lot lately and be really upset by what's in the news, are you OK?  I'm concerned about you".  It's ok to bring stuff up but why does that need to turn into "you aren't a joy to be around anymore". 

She says that you caused her anger?  Hmmm, she is responsible for her own emotions, her emotions are not your responsibility.  They are entirely hers.

I don't think any conversation with a friend is healthy if it leads you to need to call a helpline and you are so confused about yourself.   That is simply not healthy.  I don't think it's healthy to feel fear about being criticised by her regarding issues that don't even relate to her.  That to me isn't friendship.

Are there other friends around you who are supportive and caring?  Do you have others you can turn to and spend time with?  Do you actually want this conversation in 3 weeks time?  You don't have to continue if you don't want to, you can take some time and give yourself space to work it out and come back later when you are sure and ready within yourself.  Even having a time line to come back and talk seems more like a game to your friend than genuine.  Wouldn't it make more sense to give yourself space and reach out when you are ready, not on some timeline she has forced?

What do you want to do?  What will help you at the moment?  Where do you want to take things?  Do you need more time?  Take a moment to breathe and think about you for second.  Take care.

Hi Hilltop, thanks so much for your message, i really appreciate it. I definitely also feel that there's just a lot of criticism, and having thought about it, this has been a thing in our relationship for as long as i've known, and i don't feel very understood in general when sharing certain things about me. a lot of times when i shared something "positive" she would just not address it and ignore it if it was something she disagreed with (e.g. when i went vegetarian, or talking about plans with other friends).

i had such a massive deja vu from when she said that the anger is part of who she is and i caused it, as i've had my ex have anger issues and sort of shift the blame on me for "having provoked" him. it especially feels so painful to her similar things from her because she knows this was an issue in my past relationship and i'm particularly sensitive to it still. i don't really feel reassured that we could have disagreements without potentially putting myself out there to more hurtful words.

i'm very lucky when it comes to friends - she anyway lives 3 hrs away in another town, and the friends i have locally and elsewhere are all very patient with me. i feel very safe with them, and i feel really okay about myself when i'm with them? i'm trying to spend more time with them. i think the main difference is probably the level of empathy they display - i never feel like i have to justify feeling a certain way or i have to go out of my way to explain things just so i could have a shot at having my decisions respected. when i had my breakup 7 months ago, i felt really pressured as she kept trying to suggest that i move to her town, and i've always had a bit of a weird feeling about it, and i'm glad i didn't do it.

to be honest, i suggested the 3 weeks, but i think mostly because i just needed to step away from the discussion, and i was already very confused, but you're right that it might just not be the best thing. i think having had a few days to think about it, i don't want this friendship to continue, i cannot imagine a way for myself to feel respected without somehow always being the one who's not good enough (even if it's just in my head). i do not want to talk to her anymore, not even after the three weeks, i don't want to keep explaining things at my expense. but i also feel that right now it's still difficult for me to feel like i can end a friendship (and i'm not entirely sure how to go about it), i worry about hurt feelings. but then ultimately, my feelings are already being hurt - and maybe my own personal peace might just need to come first even if i know i'll cause pain. i also feel like i owe her an open communication of my not wanting us to continue being friends, but worrying that maybe that will just again allow for further criticism that i just dont need.

thanks so much again for the responses - i really truly appreciate it. i think i roughly know now what the best is for me but i still need to work on how to go about it. i'll focus a bit more on regaining my confidence in myself and figure it out hopefully!

[Hilltop]

Chewchewmonkey, if you feel safe with your other friends, I would be turning toward them, spend time with them.  Your body is telling you everything you need to know.  You are not responsible for this.  This isn't your fault. 

[feralcat]

Chewchewmonkey. I know you said you feel the need to explain yourself to her, but if she's 3 hours away can't you just block her ? On everything.
I'm an avoider personally, but if you're feeling unconfident maybe avoidance is what's needed. What's she going to do, turn up on your doorstep ?
You don't owe her. She sounds like she projecting all of her own issues onto you !

[Amadahy]

Hi chewchewmonkey,

I'll tell you some of my (similiar) story to see if anything resonates or if anything is helpful. 

Years ago, I was really attacked by co-workers who I thought were friends.  So bad was the slander that I quit my position and cut all contact.  I felt very hurt and alone and a casual friend (older than I am) befriended me and helped me feel less alone.  I really appreciated that so much!  At first, I enjoyed our phone convos and commonalities we shared.  However, as time went on, the convos felt heavy to me and pretty one-sided (i.e., how I could do things for her).  I passed it off to some eccentricity on her part and remained friends and sort of put up with long convos and helping her periodically.  I guess the event that knocked my rose-colored glasses off was when we were together at a common friend's house watching movies.  This person talked incessantly about each movie star, what they had been on prior and those prior movies.  Honestly, it was SO much talking.  I am not a movie watcher and have memory issues, so nothing she said was registering with me, but I listened and was polite.  Finally, she said, angrily, "How can anyone be so ignorant?!" 

It was as if time stopped.  Everyone got uncomfortably silent and I smiled it off.  However, I never contacted her again.  It took something glaring for me to see and register that her abuse had been escalating.  You see, when we've been abused, we grow unaware of the abuse of others until it is so very over-the-top that we have to face it.  I was so grateful for her friendship when I was hurt that I was unable to see cracks and challenges for some time.  She is not a bad person, but someone who fed off of being needed and some other things that were not healthy.  I was sad to lose what I thought we had, but felt so much lighter in the end.  I am not ignorant of things that matter to me and she said just the thing I needed to hear to come out of my acceptance of poor treatment in other areas.

Your experience sounds painful and brought all of this to my mind.  I value and treasure friendships and don't abandon them easily, but this one was just too harmful.  Yours sounds very cumbersome, at best.  I don't think she is as much a friend as one who wants to feel superior to someone else and have the final say.  The circular conversations are PD trademarks and wear me out.  I just don't have the mental energy or patience any longer.  If you decide to bless her and say goodbye, you are not a bad person.  People sometimes do this and it's just part of the cycle of things. 

Take care. 

ETA:  I just began listening to a talk on youtube with Les Carter (Surviving Narcissism) on "Off Label Patterns That Reveal Narcissism" that might be helpful.  It was uploaded 3/17/22.

[pianissimo]

I've found your post interesting. I think that I end up in those kinds of situations with friends. It's usually because one of us is trying to process something through a conversation.  To me, it seems like this is how people feel connected through talking. It feels well when it goes well and it can leave one feeling terrible when there is disruption in the process. In my experience, none of us are skilled enough to handle it when the other person throws this emotional rope that we don't want to tangle. I have been on both sides of these kinds of conversations. There were times I shared things I hadn't processed. Some helped with processing them, and, for some, it felt too much. And, in the second group, some straight out said that they have nothing to offer, and, some acted up and said or did something offensive, or they became avoidant. I must say that, in these conversations, feeling rejected hurts, and if it's about something important to us, if it's related to something vulnerable about us, we are prone to take rejection personally. On the other hand, there are times people share things about themselves with me that I don't want to hear about. So I empathize with both sides. I must say that it's hard to navigate these talks, if both parties aren't skilled, or don't have the same emotional capacity. We all have triggers around personal relationships. I try to view people's reactions to me as their way of communicating boundaries. Though, I do expect consistency and/or conflict resolution. For example, if somebody becomes offensive around a certain issue, I would talk about it again if they apologize and show awareness (and I thread carefully around the topic) , and, if not, I tell them I don't want to talk about it as they become hurtful. As a final note, I want to say that, this hasn't been helping me with my friendships so much. I piss people off, and I become scapegoated. But, this perspective helps me process what happens during disagreements, it prevents me from being enmeshed in friendships, it helps me figure out if the issue at hand has anything to do with me. I thought I added this perspective in case it helps.

[chewchewmonkey]

hi all,

sorry, it has been a while - thank you all for your messages and support, i really appreciate it! i have not talked to this person since, and i've been focusing on other friendships and relationships, and funnily enough, not having this person in my life and not having had to worry about what she might think about certain decisions and choices of mine has felt like a huge weight had been lifted. there's a lot more space for me to be idle, and especially lately i've been noticing how a lot of different things that have come up in conversation with her, that come up in conversation with my other friends, have received a completely different response, and i also in turn feel a lot better at being present for these other friends!

i still think about her every now and again - i have had a few concerts booked for the both of us that i've been anxious about on how to sort out (i'm currently trying to work out how to refund the tickets or transfer them over to her!), and i've also been anxious about promising to get back to her in about 3 weeks and never actually getting in touch since. i feel like i might have misled her, that i owe this to her so she would know, if that makes sense? so i've often felt tempted to reach out and to explain that i dont want to be friends anymore, like i owe her an explanation. i've been talking to my therapist about it when i get the chance, and trying to work through how some of this might be coming from the fact that i want to set the record straight, even though i'll not be able to change her mind about any of this if she doesnt do that on her own anyway, and she has the right to think of me this way and think that i was aggressive.

so yeah!! all in all, it's still a little messy in some ways, but it's also astonishing how it's taken me ca. 2 months to work through the self-doubt that came about from the whole initial and follow-up conversation. which is another reason why i guess it's best if i dont put myself out there again to be pulled back again into this headspace again. i appreciate you all

@Amadahy, it's actually quite uncanny how similar this feels to your story! i'm sorry this happened to you! we used to be work colleagues too, and we've both been subjected to workplace bullying and were kind of "outcasts" of sorts, so we bonded a lot over that. for a long time, i was really concerned with others' opinions of me, and she was very critical, so it helped to make me feel like my decisions will be externally validated by her and others if she agrees with what i do, and then obviously i still had my own values come along eventually.

@feralcat, you're actually really right! i've been thinking about blocking her on all socials. i haven't because of the concert tickets (see above), but i have limited what she sees of me on facebook, for example, she can no longer see any new posts i make, and on instagram i removed her from my close friend listings. it's funny how she really is 3 hours away from me and it shouldnt technically feel so hard and scary to do these things but they still do! part of me still feels a little concerned that i'm "throwing away 10 years of friendship" if that makes sense, but i know i have to do it for my own wellbeing.

@pianissimo, i appreciate your message, thank you for your insight! i definitely think that that's true, how we sometimes process things real-time as we converse with others, and how sometimes things might not go so well and there may be feelings of rejection involved. i think my only problem with it all was that, i understood what she might have meant (e.g. that i don't share a lot of information, or that i do struggle with certain things), and i said this to her as well in our initial discussions, that i knew she had good intentions, but that the delivery was still hurtful. my main takeaway from all this was that while i genuinely thought she had good intentions even when she said stuff like i lack joy or positivity or i'm less fun than i was 18 years ago, but that ultimately the message felt a bit harsh, she on the other hand when i let her know how this hurt me assumed all sorts of ulterior motives about me and started filling in the blanks for me about how i must be really spiteful about her, and when i asked her to stop she would keep doing it. i obviously cant know, because i'm not a mind reader, but there must have been something else she was processing or trying to process in whatever way was possible! it is a really nuanced situation, but altogether i think it's now clear to me that i can't really work with someone who readily assumes i've been angry with them for years and that i'm completely delusional.

and thank you so much @Hilltop - you're definitely right, and i'm trying to figure out how to listen to my body better.

i really appreciate everything! i felt so so much less alone having had to option to share this with you. thank you so so much.

[Amy-Rose]

For me personally there is a difference between someone saying: "You're a human and have flaws, I see and knowledge them but I love you just as you are." Criticism needs to be constructive and fair for me. So if I'm constantly late to meet ups and showing little regard for your time and never text to say I'm running late, pulling me up on my tardiness is fair criticism. Criticising my fashion sense, taste in music and films would be unfair. If you're being put down unfairly and constantly it's often because someone else wants to pick up their low self-esteem and are happy to knock you down for their own purpose. These are never good relationships. I would begin distancing myself gradually from this individual. Many people with NPD or just some in general can't regulate their own self-esteem and love using other people for that. You're worth more.