Nothing is ever said

[Hilltop]

I have always noticed something with my mother and sister and it just baffles me, I still don't fully grasp it.  When I use to bring up stuff with my mother she would simply say stuff like  'you are too sensitive', 'let it go, it's not good to hold grudges'.  There is no conversation at all about anything hurtful.  It is just ignored, brushed aside.  So my mother would insult me or exclude me and I would speak up and nothing, no actual conversation would take place.

However in saying that my mother is very ok with talking to other people about our problems or well my problems, she is all innocent but I am painted as being hurtful or difficult  (I only know this because my sister once slipped up and got angry at me and let the cat out of the bag that this happens).  I am painted as being upset again and blah blah blah, mother is the victim.  But this is the thing that gets me, she can talk to others but not me.  She can talk behind my back but not to me.  My sister is the same.  My sister cut me off, estranged herself from me about 15-20 years ago and not once said she had a problem with me.  She wiped me from her life which to me is kind of huge, never spoke to me again and not once mentioned she was upset or angry with me.  She may have spoken to mother but neither of them will ever talk to me about what is wrong or even simply say 'oh we find you negative or rude or hurtful or you did this or that'.  Not one thing has ever been said to me, they just simply act like nothing is wrong to my face and talk about me behind my back.  Even when asked directly they cannot talk to me.  Won't talk to me.

So in saying this I have accepted my sister is a stranger to me.  I have walked away from extended family.  I rarely speak to my parents.  My parents handle things with silence.  My mother recently stopped talking to me even through text, I assumed she was upset I moved without stopping in to visit them or that I didn't see them over the holidays, who knows.  She has not once mentioned it or said anything.  She just gives the silent treatment whilst she is upset and is now over it and so she has texted again.  Of course I understand why I didn't see them before I moved, because of their blatant insults, but this is how they handle our relationship.  No doubt a lot would have been said behind my back but nothing to me.

We are all adults now, surely throughout life conversations are able to be had.  For the longest time my sisters estrangement was a very bitter subject for me, I blamed myself entirely.  Now I view it differently.  To estrange yourself so completely and not even talk to the family member is kind of weird.  To never speak up with any complaint or hurt feeling and then to so completely remove yourself to me is odd.  She actively ignored me in her life, didn't attend my wedding after having me as her Maid of Honour, didn't tell me nieces/nephews existed, I knew via mother.  I get people simply don't like other people but in most families people see each other at family events, they can tolerate family members for short visits, but may have distance outside of that.  There is no hostility and animosity.  If there is a lengthy estrangement people generally have a reason or know the reason, or is this faulty thinking on my part.  I only see these weird dynamics in PD families.

I just think this inability to talk, to never mention anything to the person directly but only talk behind their back is just so weird to me, it's so damaging.  It's so limited.  I simply don't understand what they get from this.  Anyone relate?  How did you deal and move on from it?

[Boat Babe]

No advice but a huge hug Hilltop. So unfair. So painful. So damaging.  And here you are, choosing a good life, being a good person, despite the crap. You are an amazing human being.

[Hilltop]

Thanks Boat Babe.  I am doing more healing work and this came up.  This is the thing I haven't yet accepted.  I'm re-reading "Will I ever be good enough" by Karyl McBride.  I am getting more insights, which is great, I am frustrated by not being able to fully accept this.  I get the whole SG thing, I guess this part still hurts.  Funnily enough maybe not so much regarding the parents but maybe more my sister. 

[moglow]

Hilltop, I was thinking about this/you while I was getting ready for work today, and was reminded of several conversations with mine. Mother would gleefully carry tales about other family members' illnesses, hospital stays, marriage woes, etc. I rarely heard her talk of the happy things - weddings and graduations and new babies or jobs, whether mine or anyone else's. It's like she could only see the negative, seemed to somehow come to life with it. It took me a very long time to understand that she was doing the same with mine, but I stopped sharing my life with her and she resented it deeply. I kept hearing the things -deeply personal things!- she told me about others and how wrong THAT was, things she had no business sharing and should have stayed between them and her. Some of it she told me specifically "don't tell xyz I told you but ..." "you didn't hear this from me..." "I'll deny it if you ever repeat I told you this but ..." Ugly ugly stuff, as if to make me complicit in her manufactured chaos, then when it [inevitably] came out later, *I* was somehow to blame for it all.

My takeaway eventually: Mother didn't want advice or resolution, she just wanted to glom onto the drama of it all, somehow be seen as a martyr or saint for all she went through. Whether it was mine or yours or her sisters, didn't matter who or what it was, she was going to make it her business and discuss it behind their backs. But NEVER *with* that person!


I share all this to say: I guarantee your sister has some perfectly reasonable explanation for her stuff, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with you. It could even be on some level she knows she's just not capable of "more" and this is her cover, if that makes sense. She does what she knows.

[donutmoonpanda]

For me, I feel like not bringing something up directly with me is a way of saying I "can't handle it" or I'll "blow up." My family posturing as if they're afraid of me, not the other way around. It's gaslighting and projection. It's a reversal of roles.

Because I'm never the one who blows up. I don't yell or scream or hit (like dad). I'm the one who can take criticism and talk about difficult things. I don't live in denial. I accepted the most difficult position every time because that's what they expected of me.

When my family would not talk to me about something, acting as if I'm the one who requires everyone to "walk on eggshells", they're just projecting their stuff onto me. I'm easy breezy. For years I was a doormat. And yet somehow they can act like I'm the unreasonable angry one.

[moglow]

My family posturing as if they're afraid of me, not the other way around. It's gaslighting and projection. It's a reversal of roles.

Because I'm never the one who blows up. I don't yell or scream or hit (like dad). I'm the one who can take criticism and talk about difficult things. I don't live in denial. I accepted the most difficult position every time because that's what they expected of me.

When my family would not talk to me about something, acting as if I'm the one who requires everyone to "walk on eggshells", they're just projecting their stuff onto me. I'm easy breezy. For years I was a doormat. And yet somehow they can act like I'm the unreasonable angry one.

YES!! So familiar - You dare speak up, say it out loud so that makes you the bad guy somehow. They can then point and say "SEE how s/he is?? THIS is what we have to put up with!" That public persona somehow turned inward, like we don't know and haven't see it all long since.

[nanotech]

 Yes I can relate and totally. With my family it was always so covert and sneaky. A nice face to me, then daggers to the back.
Horrible, really.
Contact was conditional on my being a doormat. When I stopped being a doormat  my siblings withdrew contact.
It's wonderful  to have the love and approval of your family of origin, but as Jerry Wise says, you don't need it to live your life as a well rounded, loving and loved person. In fact, to try to perpetuate the myth of happy family when it simply isn't, causes us more pain and heartache.
With these sorts of families, we are better off without.
My older sister was so nasty behind my back, nasty along  with her daughter, my niece. The same niece I'd often looked after while my sister had tried to piece her life together after her divorce. I didn't realise the extent of it, then one day sister slipped up. She sent a nasty, horrible email about me, TO me, instead of her own daughter.  Wow.

[Hilltop]

Donotmoonpanda - yep it's frustrating isn't it.  They throw criticism in your face and if you dare have an emotion around that or a reaction then you are labelled as angry.  It's frustrating isn't it, they do expect us to be doormats and it's such a non winning place to be in because if you speak up and not be a doormat you are labelled as angry and emotional even if you have spoken calmly and if you remain a doormat they are treating you horribly.  I'm sorry you go through this too.

Nanotech - sorry about your older sister, that would have been so hurtful.  I actually watched a Jerry Wise video on family alienation and it did make me think a lot about my family and how I have felt so alienated and rejected by them.  The example he gave didn't really relate to me however I could see how I have been placed on the outside and they are all accepting on the inside.  He speaks about reactivity and how that further pushes people to the outside.  I can remember many years ago how I was very reactive.  Over the years I have stopped being so reactive.  Watching the video I could see how my family works this way, it was very helpful to me.  It's sad that many of us are expected to be a doormat.  I cannot believe you received the email, what a shock to receive something like that.  It's horrible.

[Hilltop]

I share all this to say: I guarantee your sister has some perfectly reasonable explanation for her stuff, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with you. It could even be on some level she knows she's just not capable of "more" and this is her cover, if that makes sense. She does what she knows.

Moglow
I've been doing the exercises etc in the book and I am able to look at my mothers insults and for a lot of them I am able to see how the insult comes back to her issues or her beliefs.  I really appreciated the viewpoint about the talking behind my back because this is something that has stumped me.  How you describe your mother not wanting advice or resolution but simply wanting to hear the drama so she can talk and gossip about it - oh yeah that is my mother.  I am horrified at the things she has passed on over the years and I too have stopped the information train.  The part about not talking to me has never made sense to me, but I guess it actually does if that information is going to be used for gossip later.  My mother doesn't talk about emotions ever, there is no depth.  As you say that information is used to further their own narrative.  That does make sense.

I don't feel I can fully understand what you are saying regarding my sister.  I do think she had her own issues regarding our family.  She did move away, at times restricting access to our parents.  My sister was the GC growing up, then she went to SG (early 20's) and back to GC.  When she returned to being GC (mid/late 20's) she said and did some really hurtful things towards me.  I do think when I was younger (late teens) and the SG, I was very emotional and reactive.  I do think she hated the drama and didn't have any understanding of my role in the family. I say this because when I was a teenager she openly insulted me along with mother about my body to dad when we were on holiday.
That's how our relationships seem to go, mother and my sister bonded over criticising me. There have been other occasions of this over the years that my mother has let slip about.  I know my parents give money to my sister and so in some regard my sister seems to toe the line with them. However they also have gone on a couple of overseas holidays together and so as a group they seem to get along ok.

There were times when I went to her for support (late teens early 20's) and I guess this wasn't something she wanted. There were times when we were older she mentioned problems in her marriage and I tried to be supportive but we struggled to form closeness. From my end, I just think I was young and didn't know what to say as well as perhaps trust issues with her. I did try to be supportive. Really we didn't ever form that relationship where we could just get together and chat.  There was distance there from late teens onwards.  I remember her once hanging up on me because she was bored of the conversation.  I guess we just didn't mesh or really get along in her mind.

I also think she had her own issues with our family which she ran from/moved away from.  I can see how when I returned to being the SG (late 20's) my mother then continued the drama about me through her gossip.  I know this as once my sister texted me outraged at something mother had said about me (lies).  Also by this stage I had married and had a lot of drama with my PD MIL.  I can see how my sister may have wanted to remove herself from that drama and dysfunction, thinking I was PD with what mother was saying about me and my reactivity and emotional outbursts.  From my end I was dealing with a lot of dysfunction, not knowing how to handle it.  I didn't rage, there was just lot of wanting to talk about the problems and tears.  I guess with people who are reluctant to talk about emotions at all, this would be a nightmare. Today, I am a very different person.

I can also see how she may have had her own issues within the family.  I don't know what her relationship is like with my parents.  I do remember we all got together once in our twenties and mother and dad were so nice to her.  I was triggered as with me they were horrible.  I don't  know anything else that was happening in her life but at this point it probably doesn't matter.  She has chosen a lifelong estrangement.  We won't see the person we have each grown up to be.  That is her choice and I will respect it and stand by it.

I get that she may have had other issues in her life.  I guess I take this personally as it's only me she has estranged herself from, a lifelong estrangement.  That isn't a small thing.  However as you say she knows what she knows.  She won't get to know me as an adult nor I her.  I guess there is no trust left either.  I will need to leave this with her and just stay in my own lane.  I don't plan on ever bringing up this issue with her again, although I am hoping I will never see her again either.  I do see that my sister seems to hate drama, she remains quiet rather than talk about any issues whatsoever.  She is like my mother that she likes attention, she likes to walk around smiling, laughing being the centre of it all.  She likes to gossip and talk but not about issues, not to resolve anything.  I guess she went positive and I was negative dealing with a lot of family dysfunction.  I of course only know her from many years ago, no idea who she is now.

I suppose you are saying that she may not have been capable of more, she has her own stuff.  I won't ever know what that is.  I guess I need to accept that.  I guess only my sister knows the real reason.  I will not find this out.  I can see my mother is limited with her emotions, perhaps my sister is, perhaps my sister simply didn't like how I handled things.  I will need to accept this not understanding or not knowing.  How I see things is purely from my own perspective.

[Hilltop]

Working though "Will I ever be good enough" Karyl McBride and a video by Jerry Wise regarding family alienation I have come to some new insights.  I can see more clearly now how my family has definitely alienated me.  They remain closer together and I on the outside.  I can see how my reactivity has played a part in this family dysfunction.  From his video and him describing why families do this, it makes much more sense to me. 

I can see how I have felt rejected by this family alienation and constantly been given the message of 'you are difficult' and that there is something wrong with me.  I can see how badly the role of SG has affected my family relationships and self esteem.  I can see how I reacted in the role of SG and how it really hindered me.

I can see how my mothers insults are more about her and her beliefs and I am really starting to separate myself from her.   I have come to see that my family not talking to me personally about issues, bothers me so much because not talking to me is keeping me on the outside, alienated.  They are the same, they don't discuss personal issues with each other, they like to gossip, talk about others, criticise others.  My mother is definitely limited with discussing emotions. An example of this is when our grandmother died (her mother) she said to us "Your grandmother is dead" then turned and walked away.  Not a hug, we never talked about death or grief, I was 15 years old.  She once told my father to stop crying about his mothers death at her funeral, he did.  I can see that they stick together because they are alike whereas I was open with my emotions, I was emotional, I would cry.  This appeared to be uncomfortable for them and so I was pushed outside the circle.  It was safer for them.  They didn't need to look within, they could just push me away, blame me.  They didn't want to deal with emotions.  The only reason my mother wanted to know anything was for gossip.

I can also see that the dynamics of GC/SG was ingrained in them from their own FOO and they continued this.  I can see how they seem to dislike me due to me being so emotional which was too much for them and so they push my buttons and get that reaction and then they can point and blame me for their problems.  I can see how having a SG meant that they also didn't need to take responsibility when they themselves reacted badly.  Paint me as bad and take all the the sins of the family.

The feelings of there being something wrong with me, defective are well ingrained in me.  I have come to realise that I am still hurt by this alienation.  I actually believe I am defective.  This is what I need to work on next.

The next part of the book goes on to challenging the beliefs passed on by family, so taking the insults and challenging them and turning them around as well as finding your own nurturing mother.  I am going to start this whilst working on my healing my hurt.  I have done this type of thing before and gotten a lot out of it however it appears there is still more to do.

I can also see how far along I've come, which feels good.  I use to see it all in separate folders but I feel like I am able to now see my family in a broader sense, how everything is interconnected.  I use to view my mothers insults as separate to my problems with my sister to separate to their mocking. It is however all interconnected. How my parents insulted me, mocked me, how that treatment led to hurt feelings and me reacting.  How that reacting was used as gossip and was used to further push me outside the family circle, and how that role of SG made them feel better and superior on the inside of the family circle.  How they need to feel better and superior because of their own history within their own families where they were SG's with their siblings.  I can see how they pushed my buttons to ensure I played the SG role and could make them feel safer because they could blame me and not look within. I can see how I didn't know how to handle anything, how I reacted emotionally, how this has hindered me.  I can also see that these roles won't go away.  I can see how I need to heal myself and make my life great for myself and understand this family will not be a source of happiness or love for me.

I still have some accepting to do but there is progress and I do feel good about that.  This forum and the insights given here has been a big part of me gaining a lot of those insights.  I am looking forward to getting to the part of the book where I start to think about how I want my own life to go, hobbies etc.  I feel I have given enough time and effort to understanding my family.  I feel I have spent so much time consumed in my feelings of anger and hurt when I had my buttons pushed with their mocking and insults.  Being so hurt over my sister. I remember not understanding anything about the family dynamics, just being consumed by hurt and it was ongoing.  One insult would finish and then there was another one.  I really didn't understand for so long why they did it. There was little room left for me to build up my own life, my emotions just exhausted me.  I am ready to start thinking about my own life because there is a large part of me that does understand these dynamics will not change.  I can change myself and how I react but the roles will stay in place for them.  I don't want to spend my life giving my energy to this dynamic so I look forward to moving on.

I just need to grieve a little more as I need to let the past go.  It's done, nothing can change it.  I need to accept it.

[Hilltop]

This is more for my own reflection, I am also journaling.   I was thinking about chaos manufacturing and how my mother uses this to keep herself within the inner circle with my sister.  I also see that when I married my MIL had PD traits and was more overt over it.  The trouble I had with her really cemented my feelings of low self worth, like I must be defective because there was someone else telling me the same thing.  Due to my MIL being more overt I am actually now grateful for this relationship as that is what led me to start reading books and turning towards self growth.  It's been a learning experience.  If I didn't have this relationship could I have sailed through life unhappy stuck in this dysfunctional relationship with my family. 

My mother has increased her communications with my MIL.  When I restrict information my mother simply goes to MIL.  And so my mother will continue manufacturing chaos as much as she likes regardless of what I do or don't do. I am trying to accept that I have no control over any of it.  I can only control myself and my reactions.  My mother will continue to stir up trouble when she likes and this is something I will also need to accept. To actually see my mother not say anything about our almost non existent relationship but reach out to others purely for information has certainly been eye opening.

I can see how they would tear me down but then put me down for being upset, telling me I was depressive and had issues.  I can see how crazy making this is.  To push someone, put them down, exclude them from family dinners, mock them, criticise them and then when they have an emotion over that, then make that an issue.  It's really cruel to mess with someone like that, to mess with their self esteem.  Tell them they are defective for being upset over being belittled.  I really want to move past their opinions and love my life for me, if I am doing things I love I doubt their criticisms will mean much.

I also understand my mother has uNPD traits which seem to be at the centre of it all.  I no longer react, I am happy with that.  As for the future I am not sure.  I do not plan on seeing my parents in person in the near future, will keep it at a text relationship for now.   Really I see this relationship as a no win zone.  If I do speak up regarding insults I will be giving them supply to gossip later, even if speaking up is done in a calm and polite manner.  If I don't speak up I feel like I have let myself down.  I am hoping to reach a place where I don't care.  Where I actually do speak up for myself calmly and simply don't care if they use that later for gossip. However I don't plan on being around my parents that much either, maybe just every now and again. I feel like total NC will be too much of an emotional burden.  I don't know what the future holds but I am more concerned with getting to a place where I fill my life with things that bring me happiness and joy.  Bring in more light and my family can hold a place in some small back corner that sometimes is annoying but quickly put back in the corner, as a mere annoyance than anything else.  That is what I hope for my future.

[moglow]

Hilltop, what I'm thinking is, being the golden child may not be such a great thing. In all likelihood, your mother may have used your sister as her sounding board and go-between, while she went along to get along/not have conflict with mother. Sister may have heard it and heard ituntil she just can't and won't anymore. It makes me wonder if she removed herself intentionally so mother can't use her as an information source?  There's no way to really know, but understand that's a decision she made for her own reasons. It's not your stuff [I know you hate hearing me say that!].

My closest example: One of mother's sisters was notorious for showing up and leaving unannounced [and she'd leave in the middle of the night without a word to anyone!]. She was very likeable - honestly my favorite of mother's family - and didn't seem to have any ulterior motives or conditions attached. She stepped right out of any/all drama, moved quite a distance from all of them, and refused to make herself available for it. I wonder if your sister made the same choice.

[Hilltop]

Thanks Moglow.  I think I am more understanding of what you are saying.  My sister has her own stuff from our family.  I wrote out like 10 paragraphs of examples and then realized it didn't matter, so I deleted it because after going through many many examples I came to see where in many cases the drama was started by my mother and at times even my sister herself.  My sister is not like your aunt.  My sister has at times created and caused drama and has been unkind and cruel on many occasions. In fact there more I wrote the more I saw the same pattern occurring over and over again, so yeah it's likely I am not the only one in the family who wanted to escape it and has had issues from it.

I do think she moved away for a reason.  I do think our relationship is lost.  I don't think that is a bad thing for me.  I'm holding onto so much of the past and it's useless.  For me it's useless, it's keeping me stuck.  For her to act as she has at times, yeah that's her stuff.  I don't hate hearing you say that, it just hasn't fully sunk in, but I think it needs to.  I don't think it helps me to carry this, it's not my burden.  I only need to grieve the loss of having a sibling relationship. It's a decision she made for her own reasons.  Thank you for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate your insight.

[Hilltop]

Thinking about this some more and I think I have taken so much of what my sister has done so personally.  I have been hurt and have really felt that something was wrong with me.  I have taken my sisters estrangement that something is defective with me.  It is all my fault, there is something wrong with me.  That faulty thinking is my issue to deal with.

I am so stuck in the past.  If I ask myself the question do I want a relationship with my sister, my actual sister, the answer is no.  It is not that I want, I just want a loving sibling.

My sisters actions are a reflection of her.  Do I want this person in my life, no, she is unsafe for me.

I am tired of jumping up and down yelling pick me, pick me to my family wanting any scrap of kindness from them.  It's ok if they vacation together, the truth is I don't enjoy their company.  I don't want to be vulnerable with them.  I don't trust them.  So for me now the distance is actually good.  So why am I still ruminating on past hurts.  I think I am so use to doing it I just do it.  It's a rut.

As for my sister, you know, her business is her business, yeah she has her reasons.  Not knowing has been a very big burden for me because I took personal responsibility.  The truth for me is that every time I spent time with her I felt awful, uncomfortable. I struggle to think of good times. I actually didn't enjoy it and the estrangement is not my personal responsibility alone.  Perhaps in hindsight it's actually been easier.  I mean if we had of had Christmas's together imagine the ongoing hurt that would have occurred.  At least the stuff I cry over is old, old wounds and scars.  I guess although I have sadness over it, I think I'm going to be fine, because at the end of the day if I don't enjoy her or her company she probably just feels the same way or feels some other way but would it help me to know what she feels, probably not, it would probably only hurt to hear it and we would just end up in the same place. 

So perhaps its time to surrender.  If I don't actually want her in my life, then isn't it time to move on?  Isn't it time to leave the past in the past.  I really don't wish her evil or bad.  To be honest, I don't want to think about her much at all, so it's time for change for me.  Stop this rut, this ruminating, it's like a tick, a habit.  It's time to move forward.  I want to leave them with each other.  I am ok with that to be on the outside.  I don't enjoy being any closer, so perhaps I will be able to accept this after all.

[Hilltop]

So I started this topic because I was frustrated that my FOO never speak openly about issues but just talk behind my back.  I am now looking at our whole family system and how we all inter relate so I can move on to my own life.  I see this is the pattern in my family, it's one of our unspoken rules.

As I look more at my sister, yes she didn't want to get fully into the drama.  She married a man though, very emotionally immature, his family is high drama, his mother and his sister are overtly dramatic.  I know this directly from my sister (years ago). My BIL took a dislike to DH and I and has been overt in his dislike during their whole marriage. Whether this is his own feelings or picked up by how the whole family is including my sister who knows. Of course nothing has ever been said that was a problem. This has played a part in me walking away as well.  My BIL was so overly rude last time I visited my sister that I decided not to visit again.  Since then during every family event he has criticised and complained about me to everyone else, not to me or my face, even when I have not engaged with him that much except for hello. He has made a point of snubbing me on multiple occasions.  My sister of course sits on the side lines.  My family have not stood up for me and pander to him. Otherwise he refuses to have anything to do with my parents and there is grandchildren. I think in part she may have bought into the whole I am a problem, that is what she is told by our parents and husband.  I will add that at no point have I ever said anything to my sister about anything he has done or said.  I have never spoken a word to her about him.  My parents have come to me and told me what BIL is saying asking if what he is saying is true, did you do this or that.  I stopped this a long time ago and for many years now have not spoken about them or given an opinion about them.  I am very different to him, I am quiet and introverted and he is very extroverted and loves to party.  We are different yes but I am still not sure why the hate.  It doesn't bother me with him but I do wonder if my relationship would have been different if she married someone else.  BIL is very much for his family and not ours.  They have Christmas's and all holidays with his family and never at ours.  This is also my sister's doing however BIL's family is also a dysfunctional so I am not sure what I think about that.

My sister and mother are two peas on a pod.  The drama swirls endlessly around them but doesn't touch them.  They remain happy, upbeat, endlessly positive, always with a smile on their face.  They do not speak of problems or emotions or issues.  You know they are unhappy by their actions when you "accidently" find out they have gossiped with each other.  They both seem to be looks and image driven.  They both love being the centre of attention. I do think my sister has four kids and is so busy now that none of these issues would be on her radar now.  Interestingly now, today, the problems seem to come from my parents who use insults to drive a response.  Prior to this very early on they used my sister and BIL and the issues there to get a response, stir up drama.  They didn't need to do much during my 4 years dealing with my MIL as there was a lot of drama there and so things in the family were fine and they obviously used the drama from my MIL as their supply.

Yes my sister may have moved away as she didn't enjoy the family dynamics, she married into the same type of family.  Meh my inlaws also have issues so this seems common in dysfunctional families.  You can see how my sister remained quiet with her inlaws whilst I did the same thing and reacted with my inlaws.  Things now with my inlaws have resolved.  I don't know with my sister I am assuming they have resolved as well.  My sister also moved because she couldn't afford a house in the city, BIL was in and out of work.  So they moved for a few different reasons, they moved close to BIL's brother.  Her moving away was for several reasons and her estranging herself from me probably had several reasons as well.  I doubt I will ever know for sure but I am going to leave it that we simply don't get along, are not compatible as friends. I admit I don't fully understand my sister's role or what she see's or thinks as she has always been a brick wall to me.  However I will leave it as we don't get along because I do feel this is true.

I can see that I have not been the start of any drama in our family or within the in-laws.  The drama starts through my parents and my sister/BIL or was started by my MIL.  It was started by hurtful and rude behaviour.  My role was to react and I did every single time.  Once I reacted every one of these people would then turn it on me and blame me and say I was the problem.  The initial behaviour was forgotten and my reaction was the focus. I can see how over the years my parents mainly my mother have used a variety of sources to make sure this drama continues.  In teenage years my father took his stress out on me and then I would react. Eg me talking on the phone to a friend or in the car would annoy him, so he would blow up and tell me I am difficult and get me in trouble. Hence he then had the silence he craved.  In early adult years they used my sister/BIL to create tension/drama.  They would bring up the issues there, pass along the insults always as they are simply a concerned party and then watch me get upset and then take that upset back to sister/BIL and gossip. They seemed to enjoy me being upset or hurt. They then had my MIL and the issues there.  I know for a fact my mother gossiped about this with my sister and all her friends, work colleagues, a ton of people.  I didn't know at the time though, I found out later.  Things really have been still and quiet for years now that the issues with MIL have resolved and my sister has four kids and is simply too busy to care.  Now that I don't see sister/BIL there is no drama there. You would think life would be calm but no, then my parents started upping their insults and hurtful behaviour.

Now  I see my parents being mocking and insulting.  Openly rude.  I used to react to this all the time and be upset about how they were acting and how they were treating me.  When I finally stopped reacting, the insults got worse and worse, the mocking more intense.  They need me to react.  They need something out of that.  I am still not sure what it is they need or what they get but I am convinced they get some sort of narc supply from it.  They seem to feel better or enjoy seeing me hurt/upset.  Whether it helps them feel better about themselves or it's the SG role, it's probably a mix of many things.

Seeing all these patterns has helped.  Piecing it together has helped.  Seeing my role has helped.

[moglow]

From everything I've seen and read, us stepping out of lifetime roles is a big no-no. I mean, moms groomed us to do their bidding and be the punching bags, they can't cope when that's taken away. Us stepping up in our own defense or back and away from them, saying No, being individuals just isn't done!


With mine, her whole family is gone now so I can see where she's really lost and spinning. Not only am i not who she trained me to be, there's no one she can turn to with it to shove mf back in line. She genuinely believed that as the mother she could do whatever she wanted, our jobs were to take it and ask for more.

[Hilltop]

Hey Moglow I agree.  I was thinking today and I remembered my aunt (maternal) invited me to a family lunch.  My mother wasn't invited and during the lunch my aunt rang my mother up to tell her about the family lunch my mother was not invited to.  My Dh and I felt yucky about it and I remember saying to my mother later that it seemed a hurtful thing for my aunt to do.  Remembering this was an aha moment.  I remembered my aunt excluding her DIL.  My aunt and uncle (maternal) on and off excluding my mother. My mother excluding my paternal aunt.  My mother and aunt excluding each other. I realized this excluding was not just within my FOO with me being the problem but it had been occurring in my mothers FOO.  Perhaps this is a common toxic trait but I saw how this dysfunction had already occurred in my mothers family and then my mother and aunt had followed that down into their own families.  An ongoing pattern that is much bigger than just my immediate family and much much bigger than me.  I have for years thought it was personal to me but now I see its just a bigger problem.

I have thought about my sister and how good it must have been for her to move away, that she would have been given the gift of distance much younger.  Distance can be so useful in healing as I am now finding out since moving away.  I am not sure what healing my sister has done.  I do remember her being the instigator in hurtful events and so certainly in the beginning there wasn't much self growth there.  The only reason I know I was excluded from the family dinner after a family funeral was because my sister rang me up to let me know and it wasn't done in a concerned manner.  There have been many incidents where she has done things which seem deliberately hurtful or excluding.  I guess as I look back on it all, for so long I had wanted my sister back, I wanted that relationship.  But now she really has caused me a lot of grief and I am happy now to move on in my life without her.  Now she seems very busy with her own life, her own children and I would assume I am not a thought at all unless my parents bring me up.  This use to hurt a lot, but now I feel I have accepted it.  The alternative is to reach out but deep down I simply do not trust her and I don't want to rekindle the relationship and so for me I guess that's it. The thought of seeing her panics me.  She has only reached out once in the last few years to see me, when I was suffering from multiple miscarriages she chose then for me to meet her children.  Her children at the time were around 10 years old.  Perhaps her intentions were ok but I felt off and I must admit I actually laughed at how bizarre it seemed that suddenly all these years later I was suddenly invited to the family dinner just so I could meet her children who were a decade old.  I didn't go but my lack of trust and faith in her are from moments like this where she just seems off.  I am glad I have listened to my gut in these situations, I honestly believe it was warning me off. I have moved forward a little to realise I don't want to bring this relationship back into my life.  Possibly it will always be a little disappointing but I actually feel it is the best thing for me.

My paternal uncle has been the only extended family member to simply remove himself and stay away from all the drama. Very early on he refused to speak to my dad or mum and stayed that way his entire life.  I am not sure what happened but he also didn't involve himself in any drama or gossip and not once ever called up my parents or involved them in anything.  He continued his relationship with his parents and his sister (my aunt). He merely got on with his life and that was that.  I was not ever aware of any gossip from my grandmother regarding complaints by my uncle and his wife.  There was simply nothing passed on.  He simply refused to engage.  This also shows of the nature of my paternal grandmother.  I am sure I am not aware of everything but my father acknowledges that there was simply nothing, he was  a brick wall my parents couldn't penetrate.  He refused to allow them in his life.

So for me I am ready to maybe become a little more like my uncle who simply chose to engage in his own life.  To me it seems the most peaceful option.  I will keep minimal contact with my parents eventually maybe even see them once or twice a year in person but I no longer feel the need to be included in my FOO or extended family.  I simply don't want to be included in these types of relationships.  So I guess the excluding only hurts when you want to belong because as I move away and realise I don't want to be close to any of it, the hurt lessens and that is a good thing.  I feel good about where I am going.  I feel a lot more clarity.

[Leonor]

Hello Hilltop,

It's so painful and confusing to be shut out; I wish that the healing would make the pain and confusion go away, but instead it just brings it all up and lays it before you. Not so you can decide to be done with it or step over it or walk away from it, but so that you can embrace it and feel it and process it and love it and accept it.

As the exGC now SG, I can say that *both* these roles suck. As the GC, I heard WAAAY too much information about everyone in my mom's life, including her own. She had a thing for over sharing intimate details of hers, her friend's and her sister's marriages even when I was still a kid. Yuck. I am positive they now they all probably know way too much about me, too. I used to think that I was a favorite and she told me all this because we were so close ... When I was younger, I thought she trusted me because I was so mature. Later I thought she trusted me but didn't have good boundaries. Now I think that was her MO for drama, to treat the other person as if they were the most important thing to her in the world so they would open up to her and then get all the juicy details to leverage some kind of power over them later or to create the same dynamic with someone else. Not necessarily that it was a conscious decision, it's just her nature, maybe.

Anyhow, that's what made her cutoff from me so excruciating ... I thought I was un-cut-off-able, even though I saw her cut off my stepsister, among others. Apparently, she told her therapist that I was another door in her life that she would close, and close it she did!

I'm sharing this with you to, first, underscore that your mom's discard has NOTHING to do with you and EVERYTHING to do with her mental illness. There is absolutely nothing any of my sons could say or do to make me cut them off. Not only because I have that mama bear love for them, but because I know that as their elder and mother I have more wisdom and self-awareness and internal steadiness than they do. Your mom blocking you us about HER fragility and brokenness. She cannot bear to stand with you in your truth because she has no self to stand in next to you. She needs you to reflect her because all she IS is a reflection.

That may explain your sister's behavior too. I actually am not in contact with lots of people from my past, including family members and step-siblings for many reasons. Most because they believe the nonsense my mom has told them and they "took her side." Others because they were friends who I thought were thick and thin but actually wound up to be pretty shallow. And others are family members with their own issues, and frankly our childhoods were so messed up and traumatic and I spent so much time trying to rescue or stand up for them I just don't want more drama. We're all grown ups, I wish them well, but I really am not up for a big reunion.

As for your sister, it sounds to me like she is where I was with my mom. It's terrifying to allow the awareness that mom is mentally ill and could drop you at any point if you don't do what she wants. I bet she absorbed that as a very little girl and then morphed into what mom wanted to stay safe; she probably does it now without even thinking about it. Having your mother adore you and confide in you and support and empathize with you is a powerful feeling,and it is VERY hard for little children to distinguish that from true maternal love. If the alternative is the cold, dark isolation of maternal abandonment and disdain, well, it's no wonder sis might have turned herself into a reflection of mom.

So if mom is cutting you off, it will be an unspoken order for sis to do the same. It's the only way for her to receive any warmth from mom, or imitation thereof ... they're so enmeshed that sis has even taken on mom's illness. Because to be different in any way is prohibited. Look what happened to you.

Hilltop, it is so normal and human for you to long for your sister and wish it could be different between you. But you have a gift of insight and sensitivity and maturity that they lack. You are special, you are not an ugly duckling, you are a swan. You're Cinderella in a house full of ugly, mean women who try to make you plain and dull but actually you are a source of love and hope. You are stronger than they are.

Doesn't make it any less lonely, though. Maybe one day sis will come around (I did.) But if not, that doesn't knock you off your healing path. It doesn't make you any less worthy or whole.

[Hilltop]

That may explain your sister's behavior too. I actually am not in contact with lots of people from my past, including family members and step-siblings for many reasons. Most because they believe the nonsense my mom has told them and they "took her side." Others because they were friends who I thought were thick and thin but actually wound up to be pretty shallow. And others are family members with their own issues, and frankly our childhoods were so messed up and traumatic and I spent so much time trying to rescue or stand up for them I just don't want more drama. We're all grown ups, I wish them well, but I really am not up for a big reunion.
Because to be different in any way is prohibited. Look what happened to you.
But if not, that doesn't knock you off your healing path. It doesn't make you any less worthy or whole.

Thanks Leonor your words are very kind and what I need to hear.  I do think my mother has painted a picture of me, I guess that's how triangulation works and my sister did believe her, I know this from a couple of conversations. I also do not want a big reunion with the extended family.  I am simply not comfortable around them.  It feels like going into the vipers nest.  It will be all smiles and then the claws come out later.   I wish them well but I don't think I can stomach the rest at this age.  I do have peace from being around them my problem now is inner peace.  I still carry them around in my head.  I simply want to get on with my own life.  I do think what you write about my sister going along to get along has merit.  It is true that anyone looking at my position as being the one shunned from family funeral dinners would not want that.  People will do anything to stay in the group. 

I guess although I want to feel the emotions and do the healing work, I am also at the point where I feel I am in my mid 40's and the past is still with me.  I feel stuck. At some point I need to look at the past, feel it and then I need to move on from that.  Since taking distance from the family I have noticed that it is nice not having new insults come my way.  That's how it was, I would be feeling fine, visit the parents and then another insult which would be triggering and although I knew it was from this family dynamic I was still left reeling having to pick myself back up.  This would happen over and over, until 2 years ago when I was so emotionally exhausted I walked away.  Now I do want to move on and enjoy good things in my life.  I understand I will sometimes think of the past but I don't want to be living in it like I seem to be at the moment.  I do think my healing work now is getting somewhere as I do not have the food cravings I use to.  I no longer feel this massive craving to eat burgers and ice cream all the time.  I rarely have cravings now so something is working which is a good sign. I guess I want to process it so I can accept it.  I feel stuck at simply embracing it.

It is painful and confusing to be shut out and I am so sorry you experienced something similar.  I am sorry you have gone through this as well.  It is really difficult.  I am sorry you went through that with your mother.  Thank you for your kind words and your empathy, it means a lot.

[makingachange]

Hi there!

Yes, I do completely understand and I can relate so much with what you said Hilltop!

My parents and my whole family really, push things under the rug...and that is how they have operated for years...never bring anything up, but just pretend it isn't there.  I have never been able to "get" it...and maybe that is why I am the scape goat? 

My parents will tell you to your face nice things to extended family and their friends...but then behind closed doors talk horribly about them.  They never really have anything positive or nice to say...and focus on the negative things in life...they feed off of this stuff.

Right now, I personally am struggling with guilt...guilt of cutting them out of my life again...the guilt of feeling like the "bad daughter"...but I don't honestly feel it is right or good for me to have a relationship with them.  But, I was always told..."Honor thy mother and father" on repeat...so now that I feel like I am not, I feel pretty bad...it isn't like I want to go back or have a relationship...but, I'm sure you know where I'm coming from on this!

Anyways...I do get this...I do understand feeling like the odd one...feeling like an outsider ....not fitting in with the rest of the family unit. 

These relationships are tough, and although I am still trying to find my own feet here, I just wanted to let you know that we are always here to listen and help cheer you on with this!  Sending you big hugs...and just want you to know..."You've got this!"