When elderly parents take risks

[Sneezy]

I've been reading a book about aging.  I don't agree with everything the author says, but I found his take on risk-taking to be interesting.  He believes that older people should not be treated like children just because they are declining physically and cognitively.  I agree with that.  But he goes further and asserts that even in old age, we should all be able to determine for ourselves how much risk we are willing to take.  So, for example, if an 80-year old diabetic wants to eat candy, he should be able to make that decision for himself.  So far, so good.  But when I was explaining all this to my DH, he made the observation that my mom (covert NPD) takes risks all the time, not because she is trying to maintain her autonomy, but as a way of getting attention.

This is really making me think.  Even though my mom often acts like a toddler, I want to treat her like an adult.  I don't want to be the bad guy who makes rules for her.  Other than insisting she give up driving (that was a risk to other innocent bystanders, not just to her), I really don't want to make her decisions for her.  But DH is right.  Mom takes risks, such as not using her walker, in order to get me mad and/or concerned.  She loves the attention when I grab her walker and come running over to insist that she use it.  Also, if she falls (which she has done a couple times) she loves all the attention and concern she gets.  The problem is that at some point a fall will land her in the hospital and she will want me to step in and care for her, which I absolutely do not plan on doing.

I'm having trouble drawing lines around risky behavior.  As much as I believe we all get to decide what risks we will take, and as much as I believe that even frail and elderly adults get to make their own decisions, it is difficult for me to handle risky behavior that is designed to get attention.  And it's even more difficult when I know that I will bear some of the consequences of that risky behavior when it goes bad.  If nothing else, there will be major manipulation and attempts to guilt me into fixing the problems that are caused.

So where do you draw these lines?  How do I treat my mom like an adult who gets to make her own decisions when she insists on taking risks to gain attention and manipulate?

[Poison Ivy]

My short, unsatisfying answer is that unless your mom is adjudicated incompetent, she can make her own decisions. The best you can do is accept that she will likely continue to make attention-getting decisions, express your disagreement (if you choose to do so), and resolve to not help her if she is harmed by her bad decisions (also if you choose to take this route, which I think is okay under the circumstances).

[nanotech]

Yes my Ndad does this. Driving with a head injury, anyone?
After he had been offered an ambulance and refused one, he gave the concerned people who had gathered round him the slip, then went to his car, got in, and drove himself to the hospital. Aged 85, he was on holiday alone, (on his own insistence, he would not go with family) and in a crowded area, trying to keep up with the movement of people, he took a heavy fall in the street.
People were around, and they responded and they were kind - they urged him that he should get checked over. No, he said.  He could have concussion, they argued. He needed a check over. Could they take him back to his  hotel?
No. Off he walked, sloping off to the car park, then DROVE HIMSELF to the hospital, potentially risking other people on his journey, not to mention himself.
Sigh.
He told me all of this with great glee when he got back home. It's blatant disregard for common sense. He told me once he'd got in the car he ' thought it best ' that he was seen 'by a professional.'  Yes dad, but just not sensible for you to drive after a  hard fall! 

When he got home, I got the total run down of all the tests they'd done, in minute detail. pre COVID, he loved to go to hospitals and have tests. He told me how he'd enjoyed talking to the doctors. ( he used to work for a pharma company).
Lots of other times it's happened. It's ongoing. He lives on his own and he needs a cleaner. ( not me). He won't get one and his home is airless( won't open a window) and deeply super dusty to the point of setting off my allergies. When I visited, I had to put my mask back on in order to breathe properly. I know this is my dust allergy, but it just goes to prove that it's old dust.  Husband was fine( no allergies) but he said he  saw  layers and layers of dust. The kitchen wasn't great either.
My younger sis pops in for an hour every two weeks. She changes the bed sheets, and thenshe she tries to clean a little 'When he's not looking.'
If he sees her, he stops her.

His risk perception during COVID changed/ changes  according to where everyone stands in the pecking order. It's very weird. He insists, while taking risks , that 'no one  is more careful' than him. Lots of gaslighting of self goes on.
I know my UNPD bro doesn't want him to have a cleaner. Not sur3 why. He can afford it. It's rank in that bungalow! I'm NC with bro so it's tricky. My sisters are in denial, I think- I'm VLC with them.
Soooo- 🤷🏼‍♀️

[SunnyMeadow]

I understand your concern Sneezy, especially the part where you say you'll bear some of the consequences of that bad behavior. Maybe you might consider changing your normal pattern and history. Is it possible you could keep in mind that you won't do anything more than the basics if she suffers because of risk taking for attention? Because she's an adult, it's up to her to deal with the consequences without any additional help or attention from you. You didn't make her take an unnecessary risk. You shouldn't have to pick up any caretaking duties because of it.

I'm going through the same thing with 2 parents. I am making a big effort to step back and let them make their own decisions and risks. My normal pattern is to jump in to help, steady a walker, grab an elbow but recently it's met with a pissy look, sigh or reply. 

So I'm stepping back and holding back and besides I truly don't want this responsibility.  I'm keeping in mind that they are fully grown adults and they can make their own decisions and mistakes. They are both moved into an assisted living community and I'm letting them get to it. Maybe start thinking that you won't bear any of the consequences if her risk taking goes bad. Isn't your mom in an AL community too? Perhaps keep in mind that the staff will have to step up more if she is injured and you will continue doing what you're comfortable doing. I don't know, it looks good in print but not easy to do. I'm struggling right along with you.

I'm trying to navigate this new relationship with them. Ultimately, I want to get back to the minimal contact with them I had before. When all hell broke loose with their covid hospitalizations and long term health challenges, I stepped up to get everything back on track. I'm getting to the end of my rope. I'm ready to hand the rope back to them!   

Good topic, it has me putting a lot of thought into your question.

[Sneezy]

Poison Ivy - Yes, I do have to express my disagreement.  I try to be as low-key about it as possible.  Today, Mom and I had the "walker talk" again.  She says using a walker makes her feel like an invalid.  This was the perfect opening for me to explain that she WILL be an invalid if she falls and breaks a hip.  Not that she pays any attention to what I say, but at least I tried.

nanotech - Driving with a head injury?  That is downright scary.  It's one thing to take risks that endanger themselves, but to put others at risk?  It is just another example of how it's all about them. 

SunnyMeadow - My mom is in independent living, which means she can do whatever she wants.  Meals and transportation are provided, but she can also cook in her apartment and take any form of transportation she wants.  Her facility does not have assisted living or any other type of arrangement.  So, as I've explained to her, if she falls and gets injured, she will have to move to another facility to get the services she needs because I can not lift her or care for her.  Unfortunately, explaining things to her doesn't really work.  As much as I like to JADE, it's really like talking to a brick wall.  I am so happy to hear that your parents are getting settled and I agree that it's high time you hand the rope back to them.  You have gone above and beyond - they are in AL, so let the professionals do what they are paid to do.

[Jolie40]

before going NC, I was very concerned about both parents & shared that concern with sibling-in-charge
I thought they both should be in assisted living

one parent was totally bent over at the waist yet was still going up & down stairs
all I could envision was them falling & breaking their neck

it took a stroke before sibling-in-charge moved the bedroom to first floor

unfortunately, falls can happen even with walker!
PD parent fell on walker & ended up in hospital, then rehab & was not able to return home ever again

[Seven]

Yep

UNPDm was in memory care, still social, still mobile, but refused to use a walker around the facility.  Ended up falling and broke her hip.  Surgery to rehab to private home. She never made it back to memory care. She's on hospice now. 

[doglady]

Yes. Food for thought, isn't it, Sneezy?

Here's my experience for what it's worth.

My elderly parents live in a hoarded, firetrap of a house. My enuPD father has Parkinson's and cognitive issues, which are possibly signs of early dementia - although he's never made sense, so it's hard to tell. Added to the perfect storm mix, my uPD mother has severe mobility issues and is morbidly obese, such that if she falls, no one is able to get her up. So...definitely a high risk situation in the all too likely event that their house (hoarded with decades of newspapers) catches fire. I have shared my concerns with them over the years, along with siblings who'd also been worried for years. Long story short, the whole family (bar one sibling) either raged at, turned on, threatened excommunication or simply discarded me the last time I brought it up with my parents about three years ago. (This is detailed in other posts of mine). It was clear that no one was going to listen to me plus my sibs are scared of upsetting uPDmummy dearest. But as I was still concerned, I spoke to their family doctor and he made a note in the file. That really was all I could do. So, I have stepped right back and have virtually no contact with them now as they said and did some pretty hurtful things to me.
Anyway, it is their choice to live how they want, as they have not been declared incompetent. Plus, I didn't cause it, can't cure it or control it (yet somehow as the family scapegoat, I was still designated 'the cause of all the problems' - hahaha, ok then).

One classic risk-taking example probably also worth mentioning, which still has me and my husband shaking our heads, was when a huge tree (which had been in need of felling for years) dropped a large branch on their roof in a storm. UPDm would not hear of getting emergency services to come out, because - hello! - they are ashamed of the hoarded verandahs and yard. She therefore insisted enF (in his late 70s at the time, and with obvious tremors) climb up on a slippery tin roof, in the rain, to use a highly dangerous and poorly serviced chain saw (complete with loose, dangling chain!!!) to rectify the situation. Honestly, you could not make this stuff up. She prioritised  'appearances' over his safety, as did he, the foolish, throughly whipped, old man. Predictably, uPDm then got lots of lovely narc supply and sympathy from various FMs by implying no one (ie. ungrateful, lazy offspring) would help them. Sigh.

So, my hard won take on all this is (or at least what's worked for me to keep myself partially sane) is to reflect on the following: there comes a point where all you can do is express your concerns, whether they rage about it or not, and then...drop it. And if they 'go there' in future, I have played the 'broken record' and just repeated my earlier statement (eg, before NC, I have repeated, 'well, as I've already said, your house is dangerous and you won't be able to get out quickly if there's a fire' - cue ensuing rage attack - God, how they hate to hear the actual FACTS!!)

And if there is actual danger to others (eg, with driving) then there is always recourse to informing their family doctor or local police.  And then, walk away and don't look back. Oh, the bliss of NC! But then I'm a 'selfish,' 'ungrateful,' 'difficult' 'problem child' who has 'ruined' their lives and 'caused of all the problems,' so I would say something 'terrible' like that, wouldn't I. 

Good luck to those of you still in contact with your PD parents. I greatly admire your fortitude. For me, it was either stay in the situation and go mad, or set myself free and feel the guilt and shame. That dilemma will never end. But I have got better at accepting that discomfort and I suppose my choice was the lesser of the two evils for me.

[Edited to add: I have just read back over my post and am aware that it wouldn't be the first time in my posts that there's been a possible tone of disrespect regarding my parents. Well, I guess I don't respect them on many levels; but there is also no intent to fat-shame or poke fun at cognitive decline etc. I'm merely stating the salient facts as they relate to the risks evident in a particular situation.
Also, my bleak/warped humour is one of the strategies that has got me through some pretty dark times.   Maybe it's an Aussie thing. Maybe I'm just a bloody weirdo. I do know my brand of humour is not for everyone. Anyway, my apologies in advance for any offence caused by me - 'the causer of all problems.']

[Sneezy]

So much to think about!

Jolie40 - The first time my mom fell when she was with me, she was actually using her walker.  She was walking through grass, which is difficult to do with a walker and she toppled right over (luckily, the grass was soft).  At some point, if she falls while using her walker, I'm sure she will blame it on me because I insist that she use the walker.

Seven - I am increasingly amazed at how memory care operates.  My uHMIL is in memory care.  She refuses to take her meds, refuses to shower, refuses to get dressed.  I really thought memory care would solve so many problems.  I thought she would get on a schedule, start showering and eating regularly, and (most importantly) take her medication.  But none of that is happening right now.  Maybe with time.  But memory care is certainly not the cure-all I thought it would be.  However, MIL is absolutely, positively not moving into my house, that's for sure!

Anyway, it is their choice to live how they want, as they have not been declared incompetent. Plus, I didn't cause it, can't cure it or control it (yet somehow as the family scapegoat, I was still designated 'the cause of all the problems' - hahaha, ok then).

This is so difficult for me, but I have to remember that I can't fix my mom.  And she gets to make the decisions she wants to make.  It is so frustrating, though.  My mom is also a hoarder (although she doesn't sound as bad as your parents).  She is embarrassed when people come over and she has so many clothes hanging on the bathroom door that guests can't even close the door for privacy. And of course that is all my fault as I have never helped her clean out her closet.  I mean, 1. it's not my job, and 2. why clean it out so she can then fill it up again?  My mom attempts to put me in the role of "dutiful child" whenever possible.  And for a long time, I went along.  But it's getting old.

[Jolie40]

mom is also a hoarder   I mean, 1. it's not my job, and 2. why clean it out so she can then fill it up again?

agree!

had no idea PD parent was a hoarder as wasn't allowed in certain areas of house
only when sibling-in-charge was getting house ready to sell & I went to help, did I find out

in closet, there were boxes of nursing supplies from when us siblings were babies! I about fell over
sibling-in-charge filled up several bags of unopened note cards
I was tasked to empty drawers which were all filled to top
PD parent used to hide candy so I came across many dead bugs which grossed me out!

whole basement was packed....even broken items down there
who keeps broken items?!