The realization that no conversation is safe

[GravityOfBeauty]

Gosh... I'm writing this to document how I was harmed today with the hope it may aid in solidifying my reality in times of doubt. (I also started journaling and I'm halfway through Fjelstad's book.) It's been a fairly quiet and uneventful week. My W has been busy with a class and while my attention was still often required there were no rages and I had a much longer leash. Things were going well enough that I started to feel guilty for spending time by myself or even entertaining the idea my W has PD at all.

Then today happened. W wanted to go for a walk. (She rarely goes by herself — if I don't go, 9 out of 10 she won't.) Deep down inside I knew I didn't want to go for a walk with her. It was in the middle of my work day and somewhat of a disruption; I was having an unusually productive day. Against my better judgement / gut, I agreed.

I knew it wasn't safe. And I was right. The walk turned into a trap. Within minutes the conversation quickly escalated into complaints, accusations, shame, and abuse being hurled at me. Her distorted reality was so apparent.

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"You talk to your Mom and friends more than me."
"It feels like you want to be single forever and hate me."
"Why don't you want to spend any time with me?"
"We never spend time together."
"You treat me like I'm not your wife."
"You always say "I'm sorry you feel that way" but you're not sorry about anything yourself?"
"Do you REALLY need to hire an accountant? How hard can it be?"
After expressing I'm excited about a new client I have, "Does that client require you live here? I answered 'not really.' "Good."
"You're keeping us here and from making any progress in life."
"We hate it here." — note the enmeshment mentality.
------

It was extremely dysregulating and left me shaking because she was demanding so many answers.  She was irate and wouldn't go home until I had engaged and provided fitting responses to her accusations. I remained entirely calm but regrettably did more JADEing probably than MC. I tried *so* hard — but found myself underprepared and froze. Needless to say, I didn't get anything else done for the rest of the day.

What can I learn from this? I now understand a bit about being the caretaker and I somehow felt obligated to take the bait for an unsafe conversation, a simple walk in this case. It's awful to accept that I cannot do the simplest activity like go on walks with my uBPDw because it's bound to be a trap. My body knows it. 

[notrightinthehead]

Since you are asking- and I hope it will be helpful, not hurtful to you- you wrote:

"Against my better judgement / gut, I agreed."

When we (co-dependently) do something we don't want to do,  we often feel resentment.  Even if we aren't aware of it in that moment, people close to us and tuned in, will pick up on that. It will trigger their own drama and their acting out as a consequence.

In your case, your wife might have needed a pressure release and might have looked for a fight, so if you had refused to go for a walk, your fight might have happened at home.

What could you do next time this or similar situations arise?  As a start try to remain tuned into your own feelings. Respect your own feelings. Allow yourself some time to decide, go to the bathroom, make yourself some tea, remove yourself from the pressure and then do what feels right for you.

You don't have to stick around for a fight. You can remove yourself. My NPDh preferred situations when I was trapped, in the car, in a restaurant, when I was busy cooking, to give me his 'lectures' and I learned much too late that I can remove myself, no matter what. I eventually learned to say "We can talk about that when we are both calm and rational, now is not the time. Let us please enjoy this time together and talk about something nice. "   I made it a habit to exclusively drive when I was in the car with him, it allowed me to pull out, stop, get out of the car for a while,  I got up and left when in a restaurant, (thanks to UBER and always carrying a house key), turned off the stove and went for a walk on my own.

I also strongly recommend to learn and regularly practice relaxation techniques. They will help you keep a clear mind in future confrontations.
Good luck to you and see you around on the boards!

[Falsebalance]

Since you are asking- and I hope it will be helpful, not hurtful to you- you wrote:

"Against my better judgement / gut, I agreed."

When we (co-dependently) do something we don't want to do,  we often feel resentment.  Even if we aren't aware of it in that moment, people close to us and tuned in, will pick up on that. It will trigger their own drama and their acting out as a consequence.

In your case, your wife might have needed a pressure release and might have looked for a fight, so if you had refused to go for a walk, your fight might have happened at home.

What could you do next time this or similar situations arise?  As a start try to remain tuned into your own feelings. Respect your own feelings. Allow yourself some time to decide, go to the bathroom, make yourself some tea, remove yourself from the pressure and then do what feels right for you.

You don't have to stick around for a fight. You can remove yourself. My NPDh preferred situations when I was trapped, in the car, in a restaurant, when I was busy cooking, to give me his 'lectures' and I learned much too late that I can remove myself, no matter what. I eventually learned to say "We can talk about that when we are both calm and rational, now is not the time. Let us please enjoy this time together and talk about something nice. "   I made it a habit to exclusively drive when I was in the car with him, it allowed me to pull out, stop, get out of the car for a while,  I got up and left when in a restaurant, (thanks to UBER and always carrying a house key), turned off the stove and went for a walk on my own.

I also strongly recommend to learn and regularly practice relaxation techniques. They will help you keep a clear mind in future confrontations.
Good luck to you and see you around on the boards!

Wow @ nrith. Really good lessons learned.

@gob - I often agree to things this same way- against my gut. I never thought about what NRITH just mentioned- that the fight may have happened then.

And in my own situation I wonder....if she needed the pressure release- perhaps you could have told her "I'm not up for it right now- but I will be here if you want to have a conversation after you have taken a walk."

I am new to all of this so take my thoughts with a grain of salt - but it seems like something that could help - the walking would give a pressure release IF she went for one - and she may not want to dump on you afterwards - but you also saying AFTER she takes a walk gives you a way out of the conversation if it DID cause a fight that you won't go on the walk. If she said no I want you to go on a walk with me why won't you.... you could say again you would like to have a conversation AFTER she takes a walk...but until then - you're busy.

NRITH recommended "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Narccist," book to me and within a few days I already feel more empowered to honor my gut responses of NO...without feeling 'mean.'

If it was just a trap to get you stuck on the walk- at least if she has to go for a walk she WILL get some tension and energy out first and then also if she just plain attacked - you would have something concrete to hold on to : "AFTER your walk I will have time to talk." It still buys you some time. I work from home too and those productive inspirations that hit are such a blessing and when the PD is around it adds tension to where I don't find myself very motivated to work. Having that boundary would at least give me if i were in that situation some time to wrap up my work and be prepared for the (abuse) conversation and to hold my boundaries and not caretake.

That book was really hard for me because it was the first book I read that wasn't explaining what was wrong with the PD - but pointing a finger at myself and asking why I believe I deserve that kind of treatment.

Why did you believe you weren't worthy of finishing your work or honoring your gut feeling over her wanting to walk. Those are tough questions for me to answer myself.

[Associate of Daniel]

Gravity, the walk situation you described sounds awful.  I'm sorry you have to endure such times.

My uPDs are my uNPD exH and his uNPD wife, so I thankfully don't live with them.

I've found over the years that no word, let alone conversation, is safe with them.

Even me saying a simple "hello" results in drama from them.

And conversations with others while in the uPDs' presence are also unsafe.

Every word I say is twisted and thrown back in my face at a later date as some wild accusation.

So, you're not alone, unfortunately.

AOD

[square]

With my H, I have found that MC and noJADE can reduce conflict but that there is nothing I can do to change him, and if he's spoiling for a fight, there's no magic to stop it.

I don't think your gut feelings triggered the blowup; your gut was telling you there was danger afoot.

Your goose may have been cooked no matter what you did. But when I'm cornered like that, whether I try to go along in hopes of heading off the blowup (eg agree to go for the walk) or not, I don't believe I need to stick around when the beans hit the fan.

You did not need her agreement to come with you when you decided to go home when the walk turned bad. She can make her own choice. You can just go home.

This does not prevent her from accusing you of all kinds of horrible things. It just means you are no linger ceding total control over your choices to her. And your mind can watch her go completely unglued, if she chooses to do so, while you remain calm and unwilling to participate.

It's not magic but it actually does, when you shift your thinking (it takes time) change YOU.

[escapingman]

STBX used to trap me like this all the time, you know it is coming but you still hope it won't. Her favourite was to get me in the car, didn't matter who drove, she would find a random issue to start arguing about. I can so relate to not being to work after a rage attack, you are so worn out and deflated all you can do is sit and stare at the screen.

Good luck in finding a way to avoid these traps.

[SonofThunder]

GoB,
I wanted to start by saying, I have had the exact same conversation as you! Word for word, my uPDw has said these statements (and more): "Why don't you want to spend any time with me?" "We never spend time together." "You treat me like I'm not your wife." "You always say "I'm sorry you feel that way" but you're not sorry about anything yourself?"

I have also (very frequently) been left physically shaking after these incidents, as you said, and just totally confused and left wondering where it went wrong.

I guess I tell you that to encourage you that you are not alone. This seems to be very common PD behavior and our responses.

I've also had it happen in situations where I feel "trapped." (The last big one I remember was stuck in a car with her and no kids for 2 hours...ugh, that was the WORST).

Also, I agree that the same discussion would have happened regardless of if you went on the walk or not.

You've gotten a lot of great advice here so I won't add much ... just to say: I've tried not to spend as much time analyzing and picking apart specific conversations. I do this to myself a lot, "if only I had said no to the walk, I could have avoided this..." Truth is, it will happen someway, somehow. The trick is to begin learning the techniques to disengage, which others have already shared on here. My therapist encouraged me to take a few deep breaths before responding, and try to notice what is happening in your body. Notice that rise in fear in your chest, and try and not become overcome by it, but respond out of logic rather than emotion. That can help you stay in the headspace of MC/noJADE rather than responding out of emotion (which is where we begin to JADE). If you can, physically walk away. I probably would have turned around and walked back home once the attacking began, but I realize that is easier said than done.

"Stop Caretaking..." is a fantastic book. I will second (or third or fourth) that one...

user

+1 

GravityofBeauty,

I have surely been there many times and will second user's response.  You are not alone.  A couple extra thoughts come to mind for your consideration.

Both my uPDwife and uPDfather are very high radar: they recognize facial expressions, other body languages, voice inflections, behavior differences and other indicators in me, which present them ideal 'guard-down' opportunities to confront and manipulate. 

You wrote "Things were going well enough that I started to feel guilty for spending time by myself or even entertaining the idea my W has PD at all."

You also wrote: "Deep down inside I knew I didn't want to go for a walk with her. It was in the middle of my work day and somewhat of a disruption; I was having an unusually productive day. Against my better judgement / gut, I agreed."

Is there a possibility that your wife recognized your self-defenses coming down during this calmer period and moved in for the sudden setup and attack? The lose/lose PD setup is the invitation for a "walk" or some other benign invitation disguising a confrontation.  Denying or accepting the invitation is the open door my PD needs to confront; confront on the walk or confront the denial of the walk as a segue to what is wrong with me=us. 

In addition, my wife always suggests a benign, seemingly good suggestion, in the middle of my workday, both as a manipulation of my productivity and a pop-quiz to put me in a decision to choose work vs her.  Again a classic lose/lose for the non.

Now that i know these things in advance, I try to never relax into "well-enough", staying quietly prepared with my head frequently up (like a Gazelle in African plain) at all times with the toolbox.  I believe it keeps my predator-wife's high radar from noticing that I'm comfortably relaxed head-down grazing, and therefore I'm not easy prey. 

I also now do two things in those situations:

1. I visibly take earbuds and my iPhone on the walk but don't wear them initially.  I tell my wife in advance that walks can be enjoyable, but based on past unenjoyable experiences that turned into difficult conversations, i am bringing my music and that I will be putting on my earbuds for the remainder of the walk, should the conversation become difficult, or silence becomes prolonged. 

2. I tell my wife that it's the middle of my workday, and that my workload is the same amount, regardless of time spent walking, so therefore i will be working later than normal that day, to allow me to compensate for the time spent walking. 

Im sorry you experience this, but agree it is a common trap, just the same as a car ride or a hotel stay.  You are not alone.

SoT

[GravityOfBeauty]

Wow thank you, everyone for taking the time to share such meaningful replies, it means so much and I took some time to let your words sink in.

Reflecting back, I believe part of the struggle is that it feels so cold to learn this new way of communicating. Obviously W doesn't like it and it feels hurtful to her... which makes me feel pretty crummy. I know it's to protect myself and to let her feelings be her own but it's going to take practice.

Today it happened again. This time in my office so I was even more cornered. My door was shut but she entered anyway. I tried putting some of my newly learned techniques from "stop caretaking" to use and it actually worked fairly well. I remained calm and stayed separated from her emotional rollercoaster the best I could. I answered with MC. I stated my feelings, said what I believed to be true, stated what I needed, and reminded her that she is her own person and in control of her own life -- she can do whatever she feels she needs to do, without me. Of course she didn't like hearing any of this but the fact is I was able to diffuse instead of escalate. The conversation ended with me stating I was going to walk into the kitchen to do X and she just went into a room by herself. I could hear her having a borderline anxiety attack and I was ready to take whatever action was needed ... whether that meant driving to the ER, leaving the house entirely, etc. She managed to calm herself and move on and now of course everything is back to normal. 

I'm well aware it won't always go this way -- nothing you say can stop someone who is irate from being abusive in the moment.

Is there a possibility that your wife recognized your self-defenses coming down during this calmer period and moved in for the sudden setup and attack? The lose/lose PD setup is the invitation for a "walk" or some other benign invitation disguising a confrontation.  Denying or accepting the invitation is the open door my PD needs to confront; confront on the walk or confront the denial of the walk as a segue to what is wrong with me=us. 

SoT, your replies are always so spot on. I think the above quote is specifically is true to my situation quite often. She knows when I'm more 'available' i.e my guard is down, not busy, etc. She will even question what I'm doing with my time. I think of course it's entirely subconscious but she does seem to use these 'available' times to lure me into activities that suck up all my attention + time. It's going to take practice to set better boundaries in that area but I'm more aware of it now.

When we (co-dependently) do something we don't want to do,  we often feel resentment.  Even if we aren't aware of it in that moment, people close to us and tuned in, will pick up on that. It will trigger their own drama and their acting out as a consequence.

In your case, your wife might have needed a pressure release and might have looked for a fight, so if you had refused to go for a walk, your fight might have happened at home.

What could you do next time this or similar situations arise?  As a start try to remain tuned into your own feelings. Respect your own feelings. Allow yourself some time to decide, go to the bathroom, make yourself some tea, remove yourself from the pressure and then do what feels right for you. You don't have to stick around for a fight. You can remove yourself.

notrightinthehead, this was so good to hear and I totally am right there with you in agreement -- she needed a pressure release and because of my hypervigilance I can often feel it building for hours (or days) ahead of time. The less I choose to interact with her, cuddle her, talk with her, etc, the faster and more severe the pressure seems to build up inside of her. Rightfully so I suppose, but that's also not how a rational person would react to my change in mannerisms.