N-mom won’t stop begging to see the kids alone

[beepositive]

I do understand why my mom wants to spend time with her grandkids on her own. But her behavior and safety concerns prevent my wife and I from feeling comfortable with it. She has lashed out at us in anger, resisted following any "rules" we have for the kids, doubted their need to eat at meal or snack times, and shown herself to be disturbingly forgetful about dates, times, and agreements. But then she pulls the sad grandma card and I feel like I am truly stealing the most precious time of life from her. It's so difficult to reconcile it. To know that I am the cause of her pain. It's a horrible feeling. Especially after she has been abused and hurt herself. I know that's no reason to subject myself to abuse. I just feel so terribly sad for her. I love her and I just wish things were different.

[Cat of the Canals]

Why does she have to spend time with them alone? I never spent time with any of my grandparents alone. The notion that "alone time with the grandkids" is a normal/necessary part of the grandparent experience is not reality, in my experience.

Also, it seems to me that her insistence that she be allowed to spend time with them alone is because she wants to be able to violate your rules and boundaries in peace. She should be thankful you allow her even supervised time with your children. If she actually values time spent with them, it shouldn't matter how the time is spent. This is a game engineered entirely to make you feel guilty.

That being said, I understand your feelings of sadness and wishing things were different. I'm quite jealous of people who have the kind of trust with their parents that means they can leave their children alone with them. Or simply that they are able to rely on them for support, which is something I stopped doing with my parents and my in-laws a long time ago.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I do understand why my mom wants to spend time with her grandkids on her own.

Oh? Why is that? Because my thought was exactly what Cat said: So she can bust your boundaries and do what she wants, be the one with the power and control over your kids.

The concerns you have listed are quite serious. The needs and safety of your children come first. 100%. Period. The end. Definitely a million miles ahead of what grandma wants.

And one more thing... you are stealing the most precious time of life from her, you are causing her pain... by your presence? Her own son? The guy who made these grandchildren possible for her? Hmm.

[Leonor]

Hello! Tough stuff.

But here's the thing:

Your kids are now in a tug of war between you and your mom.

Mom wants to manipulate you and she's using your children to do it. Tug tug tug.

You are tugging back by feeling all guilty about whether or not mom should have more access to your kids.

Where are your kids in this? Hello! You've put them right in the middle and are keeping them there so as to avoid dealing directly with your mom.

You get clear on your priorities towards your kids and your adult relationship with your mom, and you'll find peace and healing in your heart.

[beepositive]

Thank you, all. Let me elaborate on "why" I feel she thinks she has to spend time with the kids alone, and why I said I get it. (Oh and also I should clarify I'm a woman and I'm married to a woman. But it was fun to realize someone thought I was a dude/my mom's son for a second, gave me a laugh and made me wonder what THAT would be like. But I digress.) Recently I've pieced some things together. My mom is the youngest of 3, by several years, and she has this hangup about always feeling left out and dismissed due to being "the baby" of the family. She has carried this damage her whole life and still seeks the attention and approval of elder relatives and others to no end. She somehow manages to simultaneously believe she is better than everyone else. I also remembered that her maternal grandmother lived with them when she was a kid. And then when I was a kid, I was very close to her parents because she really needed them (she had escaped my abusive father while pregnant with me), I grew up close by, and spent a lot of time with them. So I think she is wired with the idea that this type of intergenerational involvement is normal. Lastly, she is single (twice divorced now), and insists she is happy this way, but I feel there is some hidden loneliness there that she tries to mitigate by being all up in my business. So all that to say, I think she wants to spend time with the kids alone to feel wanted/needed/important, to have their attention in a way she doesn't when we are around, and to bond with them. I don't think she has sinister intentions, at least not consciously. The problem is, fulfilling this need for her doesn't work for me, and it REALLY doesn't work for my wife. It's not a natural/organic part of our lifestyle. For a while, my mom babysat at our home a couple days a week while i worked from home, when the twins were about 3. It was ok, but she also made my life miserable in a lot of ways. When we didn't need her anymore, she started insisting on finding a time to have the kids for full days anyway, even though it wasn't needed. That's when I initially thought it was odd, because I get a grandparent babysitting because it's helpful, but not forcing you to come up with a way for them to babysit, and dictating the length of time. (Of course, she now denies having said this, and says I am blowing it out of proportion.) And any other odd or concerning things that happened that made us think twice about her caring for them, she dismisses and acts like we are being crazy to make such a big deal of it, it was one time, it was just a mistake, etc.

Two years ago we created this concrete list of boundaries with her and one of them was not being with the kids when we aren't present. She agreed to the list, but obviously has never really understood them. But she backed off because she didn't want to be cut off. The other day when she asked about having the kids on her own, she then went into crying hysterics about how she's so afraid to ask because she might get in trouble. Well, yeah! We've told you not to ask! But we continually give her the benefit of the doubt. I don't want to cut her off. I have very little family. My wife's family is on the other side of the country. I want the kids to have a sense of family identity, but I also want them to feel safe and valued, and my wife too. I can't just go against her wishes. And my mom has deeply hurt her in the past. (Most notably, she called her selfish for traveling to CA multiple times when her grandfather was dying, and having us go twice as a family - to see him before he died, and to the memorial. Because the expense meant that we were considering not going to my family reunion that summer in order to save money.) My mom can be M-E-A-N. And she thinks we should just forgive and forget.

I don't mind putting up with her brand of crazy if I'm around. Believe me, I'd LOVE to be able to use her for childcare. My wife and I have had 2 nights away together in 6.5 years. Wouldn't it be lovely to leave my kids with grandma for the weekend? But I obviously can't. For so many reasons. And again, I'll put up with it, so that they can at least know her. But god she makes it impossible when she pulls these stunts every so often, the crying and whining and why can't i..... Every time we think maybe we are considering some more flexibility, she ruins it! And it tells me that no matter what she says, that underneath she is angry and resentful of us, and doesn't understand why we've made these choices, or how painful it is for us, at all. She basically thinks we're crazy. And that hurts.

Thank you, Leonor, for what you said. I see how my guilt is harmful to the kids. I have to get clear. It's a process and I've been on this journey for about two years. Before that, I had never really been able to see who my mom really was.

[donutmoonpanda]

You truly aren't the cause of her pain. That's a fallacy. If you set boundaries and tell her she has to do this or that, and she refused to follow your guidelines, then she's the reason she isn't getting to see her grandkids. In every facet of life, we have to follow rules to get what we want. She has to be following rules in other areas of her life. Just not your rules and requests. She's the one failing herself. She's the one failing these grandkids.

Another thing, wanting to see the kids alone is a big red flag. It just sounds like she thinks the parents are the only ones with boundaries, and she wants to circumvent those. But kids are people. They also have rights and boundaries. It's disturbing to think she doesn't believe this. To put it another way: Avoid anyone who whats to get your kids alone, all to themselves, when you say it like that, it sounds as disturbing as it truly is.

[beepositive]

Another thing, wanting to see the kids alone is a big red flag. It just sounds like she thinks the parents are the only ones with boundaries, and she wants to circumvent those. But kids are people. They also have rights and boundaries. It's disturbing to think she doesn't believe this. To put it another way: Avoid anyone who whats to get your kids alone, all to themselves, when you say it like that, it sounds as disturbing as it truly is.

I struggle with this. I see what you're saying, if she refuses to respect our boundaries, how can we believe she will respect theirs? I just don't know if the desire to spend time with your grandkids (or neices/nephews) alone is a red flag in itself. I think she hopes that we will soften that boundary over time, with her "good behavior," but these incidents where she asks make it difficult. She doesn't seem to be able to wait for us to initiate. I just went back in my emails to find something and noticed, she asked in June of last year too! And we told her no, nothing has changed.

[Andeza]

Prior to going NC with DH's parents, we were in the process of moving to a new state a day's drive away. MIL was being absolutely inconsolable about it and some things she said stood out to me from that time period. Our toddler was only 2, yes TWO, at the time and she was already talking about us putting him on a plane and flying him, alone, to visit his grandparents in the summers. I gave her the "you just grew a second head" stare and she backpedaled saying to of course do this once he was older. In my head, where thoughts travel near the speed of light sometimes, I managed to say to myself "How much older does she think is appropriate? Because I don't think anything under 13 or 14 is appropriate. And if it's that far in the future, why are we talking about it now? For that matter, why would I ship my kid off to visit the grandparents without me? And what about our other children? (the one I was pregnant with at the time and the one beyond that that we intend to have at some point) Do they not matter? Do they not get to go? Wait a second, hold the phone.... Why does this person, whom I suspect may have a personality disorder, want to visit MY kids without me being there? Oh hell no! NO! She's way too manipulative to be left alone with my children!!!" I eventually said out loud. "We'll see, but probably not going to fly him by himself." When I related this story late, hubby was in agreement it would not be happening.

So that's my thought process. Manipulative people are not safe to be around children alone. And manipulation is exactly what she's attempting with all this "I don't want to get in trouble," nonsense. Adults don't "get in trouble." Adults experience consequences for their decisions. "Get in trouble" puts the blame on others and dodges the responsibility.

[Cat of the Canals]

I just don't know if the desire to spend time with your grandkids (or neices/nephews) alone is a red flag in itself.

I agree that that it may not inherently be a red flag, but I think in this case it is, and here's why.

Even if, at best, her reason for wanting to spend time alone with them is because it makes her feel "special" and "needed," as you explained, this is a 100% selfish desire and motivation on her part. It is NOT about what is in the best interest of your children.

Does it mean she intends harm in some way? No. It's very likely she doesn't intend harm at all. But she is not coming to this as a mature adult. Her impulses are, in fact, extremely immature. Immature caretakers don't generally make for good caretakers. And this is the very reason you can't trust her, isn't it? She puts her own self-interest (making herself feel "good") above her responsibility to be rational, mature adult when it comes to making decisions for your children. That's always a red flag to me.

Also, she's probably never going to stop asking. Neither my PDmom or Pdmil will take "no" for an answer. They are like toddlers who want a piece of cake and think if they just keep bugging you, eventually you'll have to give in.

[beepositive]

Manipulative people are not safe to be around children alone.

Amen. This gets at the heart of it, I think. Her goals always seem more complicated than simply taking good care of the kids and making sure their needs are met. It's more about her need to fulfill this role as "grandma" and feed her ego.

Do you know that this woman, on the last day of her visit to us and the newborns (we lived cross country at the time), decided to "stop helping me," so that I'd get used to not having her there?!  Oh god, I had forgotten that. I was a 39yr old new mother of twins suffering from postpartum anxiety, trying to breastfeed two babies, and hardly sleeping, and she thought the best way she could help me that day was to teach me a lesson. She's nuts.

[beepositive]

Even if, at best, her reason for wanting to spend time alone with them is because it makes her feel "special" and "needed," as you explained, this is a 100% selfish desire and motivation on her part. It is NOT about what is in the best interest of your children.

Right, it does seem entirely selfish and immature. It's not like, I'm here to help because I'm mom/grandma, and I love you all and want to be there for you. It's more like, I deserve to spend time with your kids (without you present) and bond with them and show them all the awesome things I know, so you need to make that happen, and if you don't you aren't just hurting me, you're hurting them.

[moglow]

Mo thought process:
So. You dont want to visit with all of us, you want my children alone. Why is that??? You expect me to hand over my children until you get bored/tired/need to prove a point to me or?? When you KNOW and we've talked about ongoing issues??


Not saying it's some nefarious purpose but really. Seems more that you've laid down expectations and rules for your family she has no intention of following. What if one has allergies, can/can't eat certain things or needs meds at this time and that dosage? Will she respect that or push it anyway then object and cry foul when child gets sick?


Or - like with mine - as my older brother said after his daughter was born, "she is never to be left alone with mother. I know how she was with you and I refuse to expose my child to that." We spit snd shook on that deal very early on, but turned out she was never interested in them so problem solved.


I mean really, we know what they're capable of and will do, excusing or denying their own behavior. We really have no reason to believe it'll be different whatever their promises.


Your children aren't therapy for whatever went wrong in her life. That's HER responsibility. You need to to with what you know to be best.


Mine would have to prove herself to me first, then we'd talk about alone time with my children.

[beepositive]

So. You dont want to visit with all of us, you want my children alone. Why is that???

I'm coming down to this question as the crux of it. Why? Why does she need this. Why is it so important to her. It's not that wanting to spend time with your grandkids alone, or enjoying that, is inherently bad, it's just why would you insist on it if the parents don't want you to.

I decided to ask our close friend, whom the kids consider an "auntie" (a childhood friend of my wife's), her reasons for wanting to spend time with the kids on her own. She has babysat a few times and before having her own kid, she spent the night so we could take a short trip once. She has expressed in the past that it's fun to be with them on her own and she likes that, so I asked her if she could explain why. Her response was the following:
"I think there are a number of reasons... the dynamic is different when parents are not around, like the excitement of maybe getting an extra cookie or staying up late LOL. Before I had (my son) it also was so special for me to get to feel like a mom with kids I loved as my own. Also I remember spending quality one-on-one time with my aunt's who didn't have kids and how special that was. And also I think there is maybe a special bond created when you are solely responsible for a child even for a short period that special one-on-one time."

So her reasons are both about her, which I guess could be considered selfish, and also about the kids' enjoyment and experience. My mom has expressed both of those kinds of reasons too.

Maybe it's not my mom's reasons that are the issue. Maybe it's more about the motive. Her intent. The goal. What is she trying to do? I guess by saying we don't want her with the kids alone, we are saying we don't trust her motives.

If it was just a safety issue, we would probably just limit the amount of time and make sure she could easily reach us in case of emergency, not go too far, etc. But I think it's more about this sense that she has ill intentions, ones she is likely unaware of. So we can't really explain them to her or get her to understand or agree. She would never say yes, you're right, I have ill intent. Because of course she thinks she is right about everything and justified in whatever she does.

The emotional wounds she has inflicted on my wife and I really are the reasons we don't want her with them alone. We are not so much afraid that the kids will run into the street or that she'll give them a chef knife or forget to feed them entirely (although these things could happen). It's really about how she's hurt us and not owned up to it. Her willingness to be hurtful and vindictive. The way we have seen her lash out unpredictably. My wife has a background of severe trauma so I often worry that she is hypersensitive and overreacting and that I will regret and resent these choices down the road. If it wasn't for her, I would likely have my kids with my mom a lot more. I lived in my mom's web for my whole life, so it's nothing new to me. But my wife really sees her as an unsafe person.  The wounds are almost unforgivable to her. She'll spend time with my mom, but the relationship is really ruined. She used to love her, before she really got to know her. Before she was hurt by her. Now she is like damned if she's going to put her kids in harm's way. Could she be overcorrecting a little due to her trauma history? Maybe. But she has also opened my eyes to the ways my mother has controlled and manipulated me. In my previous relationships (even my first marriage), my SOs didn't seem to be bothered by her as much. Maybe they didn't have PTSD. Or maybe they could put up with her more because we didn't have children. I think that's the big difference here.  She's trying to be part of our nuclear family and my wife is saying no. It's like she wants to be a third parent.

Now my fear is that I'm wrong about this. My mom would totally disagree that she wants to be a third parent. Or that she has any nefarious intentions. She goes on and on about how she loves and trusts my wife and I and thinks we're the greatest moms.

She just acts so different! When she is at our home, she just oozes judgment and doubt. She's always in her own world. She can't hear us when we talk to her. She's confused about simple things. Her thought process is just ... weird. And she's very self centered. Oh and she's always eating off other peoples plates and drinking out of their drinks. Like she doesn't have any germs. I see a lot of narcissists doing this. Leaving the bathroom door open or having the kids in there with her. And making decisions to do things differently than how we asked because she knows better than us.

I don't know why it takes me so much to recognize. I just don't trust her.

Our friend, the auntie I mentioned earlier, she doesn't get it. She knows my mom and she doesn't really get the big deal. She just thinks we should keep her visits short or whatever. But I probably shouldn't rely on the opinions of anyone who doesn't know what it's like to have a narcissistic parent.

[square]

Another thought is to consider how these dynamics often unfold over time. Narcissistic grandmothers often try to manipulate the relationship with the kids alone. Some tactics include training the kids to keep secrets from parents (that cookie is just between us - and possibly increasingly bigger secrets), and campaigns to put you down and elevate herself (your mommies don't want us going to X but they are just silly aren't they? Don't you have more fun with Grammy than mean old mommies?).

And eventually when they perhaps get old enough to not want to play along with fawning over her and start asserting their own ideas and preferences, she may enforce their compliance in increasingly toxic ways, like saying they obviously don't love her, yelling at them, or whatever her methods are.

[moglow]

The emotional wounds she has inflicted on my wife and I really are the reasons we don't want her with them alone. We are not so much afraid that the kids will run into the street or that she'll give them a chef knife or forget to feed them entirely (although these things could happen). It's really about how she's hurt us and not owned up to it. Her willingness to be hurtful and vindictive. The way we have seen her lash out unpredictably.

That's where we were/are with mine. We know what she's capable of and know it's extremely random. She's fine one minute then vicious the next. I believe to some degree she dissociates when it's really bad, seemed [or pretended to be?] genuinely confused later that everything isn't "okay" or she's being avoided. Then she's all "you're blowing things out of proportion/inventing things that never happened/have a convenient memory" etc.

It would gnaw at me that she's insistent on time alone with them - why?? I get that your wife isn't interested in being around her and completely understand and respect that, but why isn't she able to visit with you and the children.

The crux of it for me: "I just don't trust her." She has to earn YOUR trust first - you're the parent of the children she wants access to. You know your experiences with her. She might be different with your children, she might not. Are they of an age they will tell you if they're not comfortable? Would she pull "don't tell mommy!" it may be time to start teaching them if ANYONE says that to them no matter who or what it is, they should tell you immediately. That's not a safe person!

Mo gut says this feels like divide and conquer, and I don't care for it.

[beepositive]

Another thought is to consider how these dynamics often unfold over time. Narcissistic grandmothers often try to manipulate the relationship with the kids alone. Some tactics include training the kids to keep secrets from parents (that cookie is just between us - and possibly increasingly bigger secrets), and campaigns to put you down and elevate herself (your mommies don't want us going to X but they are just silly aren't they? Don't you have more fun with Grammy than mean old mommies?).

And eventually when they perhaps get old enough to not want to play along with fawning over her and start asserting their own ideas and preferences, she may enforce their compliance in increasingly toxic ways, like saying they obviously don't love her, yelling at them, or whatever her methods are.

All of this absolutely scares me! She is manipulative and either doesn't know it, or refuses to admit it. She used to complain about her mom doing this with me (the extra cookie, a $5 bill, or other things maybe she had asked her not to give me.) Her parents enjoyed that "sneaky" part of grandparenting too, which I think depending on the person can be anywhere from harmless to abusive. (I've come to the conclusion my grandpa, while a very sweet man in many ways, was also a narcissist, and also the baby of his siblings like my mom, funny enough. My mom craved his approval till the day he died.)

And yes, I've already seen evidence of her getting hurt and crabby when the kids say or do things that don't fully align with her fantasy. "Oh, you're not interested? Hello?" Like, she gets sarcastic and mean real quick. She's got a very thin skin.

[beepositive]

I get that your wife isn't interested in being around her and completely understand and respect that, but why isn't she able to visit with you and the children.

Are they of an age they will tell you if they're not comfortable? Would she pull "don't tell mommy!"

Oh, my mom visits with us as a family somewhat regularly, and sometimes just me and the kids. We have her over to our house or go to her events (she is an artist).  We probably see her 2-3x/month on average.

The twins are 6 yrs old. They certainly could tell us if they were uncomfortable, and we have a lot of conversations about consent, safe and unsafe people, etc. Would they tell us -- that's the question. They can be funny about what they articulate and what they don't, as we've learned this year in kindergarten. I think they may have a slight sense that things are complicated with my mom, but they generally get very excited to see her.

[Andeza]

Yeah that's how MIL was starting to turn too. What's worse, she played favorites. My DS was her favorite of the grandkids, which was completely unfair to the others. Or did she also tell them they were her favorites? We may never know. But that crap is damaging to kids. And teaching kids to keep secrets from their parents is unacceptable, because they're not just going to keep secret all the "good" stuff granny does, but also the abusive things she does and says.

[Cat of the Canals]

My mom likes to think of herself as the Best Grandma Ever but the reality is that she throws tantrums when my nephew shows favoritism to my dad over her and according to my brother has never changed a diaper while babysitting. If this were a hired nanny or babysitter, they would have been fired years ago.